Muslims leaving Islam for more reasoned beliefs/non-beliefs

[Caladan]

1) I'm not waiting for some "prophecy of a glorious comeback". Stop trying to pain these idealistic views on me. Like I said do you think that the West will be able to assert its influence on the MidEast forever? Yes or no will suffice.

2) I hope you realize my politicians are conservative Christians. Assuming you mean politicians of the Muslim world, they are less politicians of the local populace, than lapdogs of the West. Once the influence of these powers wanes, then local politicians may actually stand a chance at enacting reforms.

If your reason is for the west to decline while you enjoy its fruits, than as a Muslim you are defeated, you are now a subject of Dar al Harb, as a Muslim you have chosen to live there, or your family did before you, perhaps because of the situation in Islamic lands, this is a strong indication of what im talking about.

 

[Bismillah]

That is IMO a very jaundiced view of things. Sure, the US will throw their weight (both financial and military) around to protect what it believes to be its interests. That is natural and expected. But they have nothing close to the level of influence necessary to begin talk about "puppet" governments.

You realize the tax income for Pakistan is close to 0? That is not an exaggeration the government cannot collect tax from it's people. Can you guess the biggest financial aid donor to Pakistan by any chance? Can you tell me what country would tolerate weekly drone strikes against its populace without any resistance? Can you tell me how the government of Pakistan is not a puppet government? This applies to all countries from Kabul to Baghdad.

 

[Bismillah]

If your reason is for the west to decline while you enjoy its fruits, than as a Muslim you are defeated, you are now a subject of Dar al Harb, as a Muslim you have chosen to live there, or your family did before you, perhaps because of the situation in Islamic lands, this is a strong indication of what im talking about.

Thank you for avoiding the question. If you want to go into my personal history, my father saw no future in Pakistan for his children when the government was corrupted to such a degree that it was completely dependent on America.

Again and again you go talking about defeat. Please explain to me how this prevents countries from changing in the long term. Like I said Europe, at one point, was as defeated as Islam is now. Tell me why reforms are impossible for one and not the other.

 

[Caladan]

Thank you for avoiding the question. If you want to go into my personal history, my father saw no future in Pakistan for his children when the government was corrupted to such a degree that it was completely dependent on America.

Exactly. your Islamic land has been 'defeated' both from inside and the outside.

Again and again you go talking about defeat. Please explain to me how this prevents countries from changing in the long term. Like I said Europe, at one point, was as defeated as Islam is now. Tell me why reforms are impossible for one and not the other.

Over and over again you talk about the future, while im talking about the PRESENT.

 

[Bismillah]

Over and over again you talk about the future, while im talking about the PRESENT.

Stop facetiously changing your position. You have never said "Islam is defeated for the moment" or "during this period". You have emphasized that it is defeated for now and forever. I don't dispute the first statement, what I do dispute and what you have been trying to argue is that it is "defeated" in the future as well.

 

[Caladan]

Stop facetiously changing your position. You have never said "Islam is defeated for the moment" or "during this period". You have emphasized that it is defeated for now and forever. I don't dispute the first statement, what I do dispute and what you have been trying to argue is that it is "defeated" in the future as well.

This is the SECOND time im asking you to read my post again.
I have said that Islam will continue to exist forever, but as it is now, many Islamic lands are some of the most underdeveloped places, with their religion handicapping them ever more in many cases.

 

[beenie]

This is the SECOND time im asking you to read my post again.
I have said that Islam will continue to exist forever, but as it is now, many Islamic lands are some of the most underdeveloped places, with their religion handicapping them ever more in many cases.

i understand your posts, Caladan. honestly (and i'm a Muslim) you make some excellent observations.

 

[LuisDantas]

You realize the tax income for Pakistan is close to 0? That is not an exaggeration the government cannot collect tax from it's people. Can you guess the biggest financial aid donor to Pakistan by any chance?

The USA, I suppose?

Sorry, but what does that have to do with your claims of "puppet" governments? I simply don't see any relationship.

Can you tell me what country would tolerate weekly drone strikes against its populace without any resistance?

A troubled country, I guess. Again, why is that relevant to the matter at hand?

Can you tell me how the government of Pakistan is not a puppet government? This applies to all countries from Kabul to Baghdad.

I can only guess your understanding of a "puppet" government is far less strict than mine, to the point of including most disfunctional governments regardless of actual external influence. It is my understanding that a true puppet government would receive actual directives from some specific source, which I very much doubt to be the case in any of those that you mention.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thank you for avoiding the question. If you want to go into my personal history, my father saw no future in Pakistan for his children when the government was corrupted to such a degree that it was completely dependent on America.

Corrupted? Odd choice of word. Governments (and countries) fail for many reasons, external influence being perhaps the less common and least significant of same.

Pakistan, let's face it, was a troubled country from its very conception. It is much like Israel in this regard. It was born with a very heavy political load and serious military worries. That it relies on external help is a direct consequence of a lack of political unity, not of "corruption".

 

[Autodidact]

7-8 in entire world its pretty lame---If you see the coverts---in America alone 20,000 people convert to islam every year----its reported from American news papers

Islam is the fastest growing religion in europe-----its reported from EU news papers

IF you hate muslms so much this this video will haunt you all day

[youtube]6-3X5hIFXYU[/youtube]
YouTube - Muslim Demographics

Sources of those newspaper stories?

Here is a wiki article on the subject of religions and growth, pointing out some of the difficulties of gathering data in this area. The bottom line seems to be that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but not because of conversions, which are relatively rare, but because of Muslim's alarmingly high birth rate, combined with the threat of murder for people who choose to leave it. In other words, many more Muslims are born every year, proportionately, and they are not free to leave Islam. Voila--growth.

 

[Starsoul]

not all apostates bash Islam; surely these are the more extreme cases, just as we have within Islam. there are some that can be reached, and some who won't be reached...but i never consider anyone a waste of time.

Keeping generalizations aside, The fabric of refurbishing faith and frequent guidance from Allah is so repetitively constant, Its hardly a wonder why a person would go astray. The fact has been touched upon in the Quran as,( translation as i remember)

"And I(Allah) have provided sufficient matter for EVERYONE of you to be guided to the right way".

And,

" I may not grant all wishes of man, but I NEVER reject his wish (and prayer) of being guided to the right way."

Islam deals with all confusions regarding difficulties in acquiring faith, and encourages all lack of knowledge and faith to be dealt with good caution, kindness and support.

True that every person is an asset to the society, but a significant part of the blame of the conscious choice of leaving one's faith lies with that person. A few People turned into apostates even in the ripe time of Islamic history and under good influence of really good company as has been stated in some instances, so I doubt that its always a negligence on the part of the scholars, or the lack of kind, graceful people who could've done better. Have witnessed a case myself where huge ego and Extreme arrogance was more of a concern to the person rather than acquiring better understanding. May Allah guide us all and protect our faith ameen.

 

[Autodidact]

Keeping generalizations aside, The fabric of refurbishing faith and frequent guidance from Allah is so repetitively constant, Its hardly a wonder why a person would go astray. The fact has been touched upon in the Quran as,( translation as i remember)

"And I(Allah) have provided sufficient matter for EVERYONE of you to be guided to the right way".

And,

" I may not grant all wishes of man, but I NEVER reject his wish (and prayer) of being guided to the right way."

Islam deals with all confusions regarding difficulties in acquiring faith, and encourages all lack of knowledge and faith to be dealt with good caution, kindness and support.

True that every person is an asset to the society, but a significant part of the blame of the conscious choice of leaving one's faith lies with that person. A few People turned into apostates even in the ripe time of Islamic history and under good influence of really good company as has been stated in some instances, so I doubt that its always a negligence on the part of the scholars, or the lack of kind, graceful people who could've done better. Have witnessed a case myself where huge ego and Extreme arrogance was more of a concern to the person rather than acquiring better understanding. May Allah guide us all and protect our faith ameen.

Or maybe they just figured out the truth.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Since it is claimed that the 'Conversion' threads are inspirational, here is the story of a Muslim turned Deist (Classical).....

I converted to Islam 10 years ago, and got heavily into it, and thought I would share some of my thoughts about it here.
It's funny, and some of you may be surprised by this, but one of the basic Islamic contentions is that both the Jews and Christians have messed things up by messing up -- adding to , or subtracting, or manufacturing -- their scriptures. Thus the idea that scriptures have been tampered with has a long history, and whatever else you may say about Muhammad, he at least had that part right.
He also insisted that there was only one "god", and that we should not associate "partners" with that one god. This was aimed mostly at the Trinity idea, which he abhorred and thought unworthy of God (which indeed it is).
He denied ideas/doctrines like original sin, the atoning death of Jesus, a priestly class, and many other such things, all of which I heartily agreed with. He insisted that we each had a relationship with God, that no one could come between it or "mediate" it (whether in the form of Jesus or a priest), that we were each responsible for our moral life, that men and woman had equal responsibility and opportunity in spiritual matters.
Also, interestingly enough, the Koran talks about how stories in the Old Testament reflect badly on the prophets (Lot sleeping with his daughters, for example) and that they should be rejected, and the reputation of these people restored.
At any rate, converting to Islam opened many new possibilities to me, for which I will always be grateful. But ...
While it does better on some of these issues, Islam introduces a few of its own that became major stumbling blocks for me. In particular, the "god" which the Koran describes is frightful, vengeful, arbitrary and a bit blood thirsty, among other things.

I recently read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason", and it struck me that many of the same sorts of things could be said about Islam and the Koran -- that there's a need to step back from the text, and examine the sort of "god" which the text describes, and see whether this "god" is really worth worshipping.
There are other issues, having to do with the Koran itself. If you haven't read it, then let me say it's mostly a series of stories, drawn mostly from the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament), about prophets being sent to "warn" their communities, about how they were rejected, and about how Allah punished them in consequence. The Koran also contains a lot of legislation and rules about various aspects of social life along with occasional bits about God and how He acts in the world.
Thing is, the Koran was revealed over a period of 23 years, in bits and pieces, and many of these bits and pieces were made into chapters (there's more than 100 in all), each addressing many different things, or repeating/retelling certain stories (such as that of Noah).
When you read the whole thing, you discover that much of it is repetitive and awkward. The story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom, for example, is told about a dozen times. As you read through it from start to finish, you come across these stories again and again, always with the same injunction -- See what We did to those who disbelieve! See how we destroyed them! See what happened to them!
After awhile, this begins to produce feelings of revulsion -- is this how God acts in the world? Threats? Believe or be destroyed? Follow the prophet or risk being cast into hell?...
....The Koran isn't all bad (although people have said reading the English translations of it is nothing less than torturous), and it does again and again say ''God is the Most Compassionate'' and ''God is the Most Merciful'' and etc. But this is really canceled out by the negatives, by the threats, by the almost gleeful tone of which the destruction of numerous villages and communities is detailed with that constant ''See how I destroyed them'' and ''See what happens to those who are unbelievers''.
Surely God could do better ...

Lewis Loflin



For what it's worth...

 

[Bismillah]

This is the SECOND time im asking you to read my post again.
I have said that Islam will continue to exist forever, but as it is now, many Islamic lands are some of the most underdeveloped places, with their religion handicapping them ever more in many cases.

I know you stated Islam will continue to exist forever. I saw you recently attach that so as to backtrack. It is obvious from your general tone, implications, and word choice that you were stating Islam is defeated forever, go back to page three to prove my point. For Islam to be defeated it would have to be abolished. Therefore, Islam is not defeated. Islamic countries are backward and poor but that does not mean they are defeated. As long as the Islamic faith exists and taking every single example from history it shouldn't be hard for a person to surmise that Muslim lands won't always be in the same position they are now.

 

[Bismillah]

Corrupted? Odd choice of word. Governments (and countries) fail for many reasons, external influence being perhaps the less common and least significant of same.

I'm not saying that the government is corrupt because of reliance on the U.S. I'm saying the inverse: the government is reliance on the U.S because of corruption. Corruption which prevents the simplest of things like tax collection.

Pakistan, let's face it, was a troubled country from its very conception. It is much like Israel in this regard. It was born with a very heavy political load and serious military worries. That it relies on external help is a direct consequence of a lack of political unity, not of "corruption".

Not really Pakistan was presented with its greatest chance under Jinnah. After his death, the numerous coups and military dictators sprinkled with incompetent and corrupted civilian leaders like Bhutto just ground the country into the dust.

If a leader cannot rule without the help of an outside ally, then it is reasonable to say that the leader is a puppet of that entity.

 

[Bismillah]

Or maybe they just figured out the truth.

Right

 

[Sajdah]

The current state of affairs of Islamic lands will take a very long time to change, I am talking about now, your problem is that you cannot even bring yourself to do that, which is one of the major problems in the lands of Islam now, while their lands are being defeated, they dream about judgment day and a future of victory, which will never come, it is a self defeating dogma. which makes it impossible for these people to take care of themselves and their society.

Sorry, but who are you to decide that victory will never come?! Yes, we suffer from grave problems and most of Muslim lands are under foreign occupation either economically, or military.... But it doesn't justify your opinion that Islam is being defeated, it rather reveals your avoidance from remembering the history of Islam. In our history we've had many drops, but we stood firm and got over the drawbacks and our civilization flourished again. That's exactly what is happening nowadays, history repeats itself!

You can call Islam defeated if it became like those nations we read about in the books of history, but they have no existence in our real life at the moment, and this is not the case with Islam. In addition to that, the battle isn't ended yet!
Besides, that hope you're belittling is a clear evidence that Islam isn't defeated, Muslims still adhere to the guidance of Islam that's why they put their trust in Allah(swt), and they strongly believe in the Divine Law which is clearly stated in Surah[47:7] "O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allah, He will help you, and make your foothold firm."

Also don't forget that "these people" were the leaders of the world when they applied that divine law, and Alhamdulillah there's still a group of Muslims applying it and victory is always their ally!!

I haven't said it will be defeated, I've said that it is defeated. many 'Proper Muslims' mostly live as poor subjects of 'pseudo-secular' dictators, .

I have said that Islam will continue to exist forever, but as it is now, many Islamic lands are some of the most underdeveloped places, with their religion handicapping them ever more in many cases.

I feel that you are contradicting yourself here, what exactly is handicapping Muslims? "pseudo-secular dictators", or "their religion". If it was the first I absolutely agree with you, but I totally disagree in the second point, Islam was never an obstacle confronting Muslims, in fact it is the motivation which make us ambitious for more development and progress in both our worldly and religious life, Allah (swt) says in surah [16:97] Whoever works righteousness - whether male or female - while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islamic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life (in this world with respect, contentment and lawful provision), and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do (i.e. Paradise in the Hereafter).

And in Surah 9 Allah (swt) says [105] And say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "Do deeds! Allah will see your deeds, and (so will) His Messenger and the believers. And you will be brought back to the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. Then He will inform you of what you used to do."

So It's prejudice to throw every single problem happening in Muslim nations on such beautiful religion!

 

[Caladan]

I know you stated Islam will continue to exist forever. I saw you recently attach that so as to backtrack. It is obvious from your general tone, implications, and word choice that you were stating Islam is defeated forever, go back to page three to prove my point. For Islam to be defeated it would have to be abolished. Therefore, Islam is not defeated. Islamic countries are backward and poor but that does not mean they are defeated. As long as the Islamic faith exists and taking every single example from history it shouldn't be hard for a person to surmise that Muslim lands won't always be in the same position they are now.

Your projecting, I have said Islam is 'defeated', and yes I do believe it will take it a very long time if ever to come to terms with the rest of the developed world. and no Islam does not need to be abolished in order to be defeated, if Islam itself is what handicaps its adherents in many ways, it is self defeating, in many other cases Muslim live a decent life, but always those who were willing to be flexible and reform their religion and tradition.

 

[Caladan]

Sorry, but who are you to decide that victory will never come?! Yes, we suffer from grave problems and most of Muslim lands are under foreign occupation either economically, or military.... But it doesn't justify your opinion that Islam is being defeated, it rather reveals your avoidance from remembering the history of Islam. In our history we've had many drops, but we stood firm and got over the drawbacks and our civilization flourished again. That's exactly what is happening nowadays, history repeats itself!

Orientalists and Oriental intellectuals have a very extensive analysis of what you are doing right here, the traditional way many Muslims linger on a romantic past without the ability to cope with their problems today.

You can call Islam defeated if it became like those nations we read about in the books of history, but they have no existence in our real life at the moment, and this is not the case with Islam. In addition to that, the battle isn't ended yet!

Which battle is that?

Besides, that hope you're belittling is a clear evidence that Islam isn't defeated, Muslims still adhere to the guidance of Islam that's why they put their trust in Allah(swt), and they strongly believe in the Divine Law which is clearly stated in Surah[47:7] "O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allah, He will help you, and make your foothold firm."

Honestly, you bring scriptures into a debate with a non believer? this is a self defeating weapon, and tiering as having to listen to people quote the bible.

Also don't forget that "these people" were the leaders of the world when they applied that divine law, and Alhamdulillah there's still a group of Muslims applying it and victory is always their ally!!

More romance and lingering to a past people like you had no part in.

I feel that you are contradicting yourself here, what exactly is handicapping Muslims? "pseudo-secular dictators", or "their religion". If it was the first I absolutely agree with you, but I totally disagree in the second point, Islam was never an obstacle confronting Muslims, in fact it is the motivation which make us ambitious for more development and progress in both our worldly and religious life, Allah (swt) says in surah [16:97] Whoever works righteousness - whether male or female - while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islamic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life (in this world with respect, contentment and lawful provision), and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do (i.e. Paradise in the Hereafter).

More scriptures.. do you have material of your own?

So It's prejudice to throw every single problem happening in Muslim nations on such beautiful religion!

Islam may be a beautiful religion in some cases, but it is failing in many areas to make a shift that many other societies have made a very long time ago.

 

[Faithfreedom]

How can muslim (as a whole) ever catch up with non-muslim (as a whole) when:
- they have to pray 5 times a day (even at odd hours, even if they are tired, etc) - they don't get enough sleep. - concentration interrupted
- have to fast for one month every year - decrease productivity
- learn arabic - more wasting time
- they have so much restrictions (can't do this, can't do that) -ie live in a cocoon - cut off from reality to a great degree
- due to all the above, they age faster (- having lots of kids just adds to the stress and spreads their resources thin.)
I'm sure people here can add to this list, but my point is, on the whole, a muslim will lack behind the non-muslim. (this i think is an obvious fact. Yes, there are exception to the rule but if you look closely, these are the non-devout muslim)

Its frightening when a whole lot of them gets left behind. Strange things start to happen. When their membership increase, their demands will start to increase (separate swimming pools, separate this, separate that). The pull to go backwards towards the 7th century gets stronger. There will be more excuses. Eg. When i ask muslims why is it that they are not in the technological forefront, they say with pride something like, "Allah makes these kuffars slave for us so that we can enjoy the fruits of their labor."
In muslim majority lands, the backwardness just resonates to a critical level.
Turkey separates the powers of the church (or should i say mosque) and the state. If it can maintain this, then there may be a chance for turkey yet. But at anytime it can revert back because it is clearly believed in islam that no such division is permissible. Other religions on the other hand does not want to form a political government. That is the reason why they are progressive. They are not strait-jacketed by an inflexible doctrine.

I admire Japan. After USA Admiral Percivel(?) forced feudal Japan to trade with them, they were at the mercy of the west. But within a short time 45yrs Meiji Restoration - they modernised and kicked out their colonial masters. (ok - they started WW2 in the east - that i am not so hot about!). Today Japan, India, China, Taiwan, Singapore, ...put your up-coming industrial dragon here...are forcing people the whole over to respect them by what they have achieved. Why can't muslim majority countries do the same. Corruption is worldwide. What matters is the degree of corruption.

I sadly conclude that the Quran and Islam is whats holding them back.