Muslims leaving Islam for more reasoned beliefs/non-beliefs

[tumbleweed41]

How can muslim (as a whole) ever catch up with non-muslim (as a whole) when....(snip).....

I sadly conclude that the Quran and Islam is whats holding them back.

While medieval Europe was being held back by Christian dogma, the Islamic middle east was advancing in leaps and bounds.
Later, during European colonization of the Middle East, Islamic intellect was repressed and driven into it's own dark ages.
It is only within recent history that these countries have regained self-governance, and the specter of European colonization and control has given regressive Islamic fundamentalism a strong hold over the minds of Middle Easterners. A kind of justifiable mistrust and anger over Western policies.
It is this irrational fundamentalism that is holding the Middle East back from regaining it's former glory.
I agree that these countries need to shake off these fundamentalist and regressive ideals and join the modern world. It is not about their religion, it is about how their religion is hijacked by fundamentalists.
I also think we need to look at this example as a warning when regressive fundamental Christians attempt to push their theocratic ideals onto Western Society.

 

[Bismillah]

How can muslim (as a whole) ever catch up with non-muslim (as a whole) when:
- they have to pray 5 times a day (even at odd hours, even if they are tired, etc) - they don't get enough sleep. - concentration interrupted
- have to fast for one month every year - decrease productivity
- learn arabic - more wasting time
- they have so much restrictions (can't do this, can't do that) -ie live in a cocoon - cut off from reality to a great degree
- due to all the above, they age faster (- having lots of kids just adds to the stress and spreads their resources thin.)
I'm sure people here can add to this list, but my point is, on the whole, a muslim will lack behind the non-muslim. (this i think is an obvious fact. Yes, there are exception to the rule but if you look closely, these are the non-devout muslim)

That's all I can say about this list. I have never been held back by any of this stuff. None of this stuff has held me back, in fact I believe it's essential for success in my life.

 

[Sufi]

Our Golden Past, Our Bright Future

[youtube]5zqVqvAhzlw[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zqVqvAhzlw

by Dr Abdullah Hakim Quick :yes:

 

[linwood]

Enlighten me on how this equates with defeated? I could easily replace Islam and insert Medieval Europe and the statement would be just as true.

Yes and the fact that you would have to use Medieval Europe as a comparison instead of Modern Europe does nothing more than add more support for the argument you are disagreeing with.

 

[beenie]

While medieval Europe was being held back by Christian dogma, the Islamic middle east was advancing in leaps and bounds.
Later, during European colonization of the Middle East, Islamic intellect was repressed and driven into it's own dark ages.
It is only within recent history that these countries have regained self-governance, and the specter of European colonization and control has given regressive Islamic fundamentalism a strong hold over the minds of Middle Easterners. A kind of justifiable mistrust and anger over Western policies.
It is this irrational fundamentalism that is holding the Middle East back from regaining it's former glory.
I agree that these countries need to shake off these fundamentalist and regressive ideals and join the modern world. It is not about their religion, it is about how their religion is hijacked by fundamentalists.
I also think we need to look at this example as a warning when regressive fundamental Christians attempt to push their theocratic ideals onto Western Society.

i agree too that the extremists are destroying Muslim communities from within.

 

[Sufi]

i agree too that the extremists are destroying Muslim communities from within.

These so called extremists are either labelled extreme by imperialistic forces (such as the US or UK) or are truly extreme but they are a minority.

“I don't even call it violence when it's in self defense; I call it intelligence” - Malcolm X

 

[Bismillah]

Yes and the fact that you would have to use Medieval Europe as a comparison instead of Modern Europe does nothing more than add more support for the argument you are disagreeing with.

You are blind if you can't see the connection. Almost every modern day country could be labeled by such general terms of "defeated". Like I said Saudi, Japan, India, Mongolia, France were all at one point defeated. Yet they also gave birth to shrewd and idealistic leaders who were able to completely change the standing of their country during their rule. Like I have said, trying to alter the cycle of history is sheer idiocy.

How does this add support for the other side, I really am interested in reasoning not just statements.

 

[Bismillah]

Your projecting, I have said Islam is 'defeated', and yes I do believe it will take it a very long time if ever to come to terms with the rest of the developed world. and no Islam does not need to be abolished in order to be defeated, if Islam itself is what handicaps its adherents in many ways, it is self defeating, in many other cases Muslim live a decent life, but always those who were willing to be flexible and reform their religion and tradition.

Islam is a handicap? The only handicap in the Muslim world is its rulers. After the absolution of the caliphate intellectual knowledge of Islam has been declining generation by generation. A rekindling in Islam would most assuredly prompt a revolutionized Middle East.

 

[linwood]

You are blind if you can't see the connection.

Oh, I see the connection.
I believe you don`t see what that connection means for Islam.

How does this add support for the other side, I really am interested in reasoning not just statements.

You are comparing modern Islam to a culture of barbarism that is centuries past.
A culture that has been left by the wayside in it`s reformation under the principles of enlightenment.

The fact that Modern Islam finds it`s best comparison in medieval Europe speaks volumes on the barbarism and backwards thought that pervades Islam today.

When you can rationally compare Islam to modern Europe THEN you will have something worthy of pride in.

Until then you simply belong to a culture that lacks any and all enlightenment concerning human rights and understanding.

These are the reasons the people in the OP have left Islam, they have outgrown it and ascended from it`s extremely limited barbaric opportunities to bigger, better, and brighter things.

 

[Bismillah]

The fact that Modern Islam finds it`s best comparison in medieval Europe speaks volumes on the barbarism and backwards thought that pervades Islam today.

You are misinterpreting the basics of this discussion. I am not comparing Muslim society to that of Medieval Europe. Simply, Europe within that timeframe was categorized as "defeated". Yet without prediction, Europe overtook the world class civilizations of its time. You are trying to jam a square peg in a circle opening and have failed to notice the whole point of the analogy. That predicting the continual "defeat" is impossible and that history has shown that those in power lose power and those who are destitute become wealthy.

These are the reasons the people in the OP have left Islam, they have outgrown it and ascended from it`s extremely limited barbaric opportunities to bigger, better, and brighter things.

:biglaugh:Tell me how Islam is limiting me! Oh man that is too good.

 

[tumbleweed41]

These so called extremists are either labelled extreme by imperialistic forces (such as the US or UK)

Perfect example...

Later, during European colonization of the Middle East, Islamic intellect was repressed and driven into it's own dark ages.
It is only within recent history that these countries have regained self-governance, and the specter of European colonization and control has given regressive Islamic fundamentalism a strong hold over the minds of Middle Easterners. A kind of justifiable mistrust and anger over Western policies.

or are truly extreme but they are a minority.

But a controlling, powerful, and vocal minority.

 

[linwood]

You are misinterpreting the basics of this discussion. I am not comparing Muslim society to that of Medieval Europe. Simply, Europe within that timeframe was categorized as "defeated".

Medieval Europe WAS defeated, that is the point.
The theological dogma that caused such suffering death and destruction was abandoned in favor of the tenants of modern enlightenment.
Europe could not rise from that defeat UNTIL it became something entirely different, entirely better.

I don`t see Islam making these changes or reforms.
Islam is still living in the 16th century and will progress no further through any legitimate means until it abandons this mindset.

:biglaugh:Tell me how Islam is limiting me! Oh man that is too good.

I never did such a thing.
Please point to the statement that you have misread/understood that makes you believe so.

 

[Bismillah]

Medieval Europe WAS defeated, that is the point.

Umm no, there was no sweeping hand that demolished the church and plucked Europe into a collection of squabbling super powers. The tatar invasions of the Middle East began a process of eroding its status as world wide leaders while they decided not to invade Europe because of the lack of bounty. During this time the intellectual works and progress made by the Near East and Eastern cultures transfused throughout Europe, without it having to suffer oppression and conquest. The Church was still highly active and some of its greatest monuments were constructed during this time.

Islam meanwhile reached it's greatest intellectual era when Islam itself was pushed to new levels. When theological reasoning went hand in hand with scientific reasoning. Don't push the experiences of your culture on mine because they are not comparable.

I never did such a thing.
Please point to the statement that you have misread/understood that makes you believe so.

These are the reasons the people in the OP have left Islam, they have outgrown it and ascended from it`s extremely limited barbaric opportunities to bigger, better, and brighter things.

 

[England my lionheart]

These so called extremists are either labelled extreme by imperialistic forces (such as the US or UK) or are truly extreme but they are a minority.

“I don't even call it violence when it's in self defense; I call it intelligence” - Malcolm X

Its poignant that Malcolm X was assasinated by the Nation of Islam organization

 

[LuisDantas]

If a leader cannot rule without the help of an outside ally, then it is reasonable to say that the leader is a puppet of that entity.

Not IMO, not at all. Unless you are willing to consider the possibility that the group or nation in question is itself artificial and perhaps unsusteinable.

After all, it is the people of a nation who ultimately decide its fate. Even if it ends up being by omission and passivity.

 

[LuisDantas]

These so called extremists are either labelled extreme by imperialistic forces (such as the US or UK) (...)

Or maybe they are indeed extreme, but other Muslims fail to recognize and denounce them with enough emphasis to protect the credibility of Islam?

 

[LuisDantas]

Islam is a handicap? The only handicap in the Muslim world is its rulers. After the absolution of the caliphate intellectual knowledge of Islam has been declining generation by generation. A rekindling in Islam would most assuredly prompt a revolutionized Middle East.

That is indeed IMO the main weakness of Muslim communities: their over-reliance on their leaders. I'm not up to date on how exactly the caliphate ceased to be, but it is worth noticing that it was finished.

 

[Bismillah]

Or maybe they are indeed extreme, but other Muslims fail to recognize and denounce them with enough emphasis to protect the credibility of Islam?

Just because you don't hear of Muslims denouncing terrorism doesn't mean they don't. I have never met a Muslim who doesn't denounce terrorism, unless he is himself an extremist. When the majority of terror attacks target muslims it isn't realistic to believe Muslims support terrorism.

After all, it is the people of a nation who ultimately decide its fate. Even if it ends up being by omission and passivity.

Umm no. I clearly stated that the government cannot sustain itself without the help of an outside force. That means that the government has little to no support domestically in that it has to appeal to outside aid for the most basic of functions.

A puppet state has also been described as an entity which in fact lacks independence

Puppet state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is indeed IMO the main weakness of Muslim communities: their over-reliance on their leaders

I don't think they "rely" on their leaders so much as their leaders rule them. These "democracies" are in realities totalitarian regimes supported by brutal police and outside funding and intelligence.

 

[LuisDantas]

Umm no. I clearly stated that the government cannot sustain itself without the help of an outside force. That means that the government has little to no support domestically in that it has to appeal to outside aid for the most basic of functions.

That is not a puppet state by my understanding of the concept. It is a failed state instead.

Puppet state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A puppet state has also been described as an entity which in fact lacks independence, preserves all the external paraphernalia of independence, but in reality is only an organ of another state who has set it up and whose satellite it is.[3"]"


That simply does not apply to any of the nations that you mentioned.

I don't think they "rely" on their leaders so much as their leaders rule them. These "democracies" are in realities totalitarian regimes supported by brutal police and outside funding and intelligence.

Outside? Which nations do you think I am talking about?

Far as I can tell it is the submission mentality that is inherent to the very concept of Islam, and not "external" imperialism, that cause that situation.

 

[Sajdah]

Orientalists and Oriental intellectuals have a very extensive analysis of what you are doing right here, the traditional way many Muslims linger on a romantic past without the ability to cope with their problems today.

I was talking about our past to prove to you that Islam isn't defeated, as we had problems in the past, and they were solved, we will do it in our present Insha'Allah, perhaps it will take some time, but it will occur....I'm not saying we are dreaming of our past and forgetting our recent status...No, we are just learning from our past.....

You are/were a jew and I think you understand very well the importance of history to nations, who has no past, has no present, and will have no future (as I believe)!!

Which battle is that?

You tell me which battle? You're constantly saying "Islam is defeated" then there should be a battle, and I'm telling you whatever battle Islam is in right now (religiously, politically...), it isn't ended yet...

Honestly, you bring scriptures into a debate with a non believer? this is a self defeating weapon, and tiering as having to listen to people quote the bible.

LOL, I'm well-aware that the non-believer I'm talking to is not any one, he claimed that he has read the Qur'an twice (as I remember), so providing him only three verses to prove to him that "their religion is not handicapping them" will not be a problem to him, but it really was!!!

More romance and lingering to a past people like you had no part in.

But we know how to regain our glorious past, it just requires some time for the reformations happening to be obvious to all..

Islam may be a beautiful religion in some cases, but it is failing in many areas to make a shift that many other societies have made a very long time ago.

Like what exactly?