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Muslims Only: Is apostasy a capital crime in Islam?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
You are right, and I think I have stated that the Sahaba did practice punishment for apostates and the Madhhabs hold the same view, that apostasy is punishable.
seeking4truth
Active Member
Who says there is no Khalifah?
There is a very active and successful community lead by one Khalifah who has authority over the community worldwide.
Through his leadership and that of his predecessors the Ahmadi Muslim community has flourished by the Grace of God and will continue to do so as long as they remain true to the teachings of the Holy Quran.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
When one has an answer from the Quran there is not further need. I am sure many scholars have spoken vastly about it. I am sure some were very mistaken and some correct. If you can find a single support for this claim based on the Quran or mention of Holy Prophet (saw) giving an order to execute an apostate, whether provided by the modern or past scholars, then it is substantial. Currently you can go through this thread with a fine tooth comb and you will find 0 substantial support for death punishment and at least 2 different ones based on the Quran alone.
It is often easier to runaway then respond to the Quran, which is why nobody may respond to your last post. I have found these kind of discussions to be a pointless battle, after bringing the Quran to respond people run to Hadith, after bringing the Hadith to respond they run to scholars who support them. In this age, those who want to kill apostates is purely incited by the local Mullah for political reasons.
Aamer
Truth Seeker
Scholars are not authorized to create religious laws. And those that follow them are not paying attention to Gods words...
[9:31] They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah the son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
That is very dishonest and very ignorant of the teachings of Islam posting a verse like that in support of your faulty understanding.
Allah is the one who has given scholars authority and Allah is the one who has obligated us to follow them:
Evidence from the Qur'an about following Scholars:
"O you who believe! Follow Allah; follow the Messenger and those of authority (Amr) amongst you." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 59)
That of authority (Amr) has been explained by some as Muslim rulers while others have viewed them as jurists. The latter view was the opinion of Abdullah ibn Abbas, Mujahid, `Ataa ibn Abi Rabah, `Ataa ibn Saib, Hasan of Basra, Abu 'Aliyah and many others.
After substantiatng the proofs for this second view, Imam Razi gives preferenceto it and writes:
"So taking those of Amr to mean scholars is more appropriate."
Imam Abu Bakr Jassas position is that there is no contradiction between the two opinions. In fact, both are implied. Rulers should be followed in political matters and jurists should be followed in legal issues.
Imam Ibn Qayyim says that following the rulers is in effect following the scholars since rulers are also required to follow scholars in legal issues. Hence, "...following rulers is subject to following scholars."
"And when there comes to them a matter concerning (public) safety or fear, they relay it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority (Amr), those who can investigate and extract (information) among them would know (the rumor's validity)...." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 83)
The background to this verse is that the hypocrites of Madinah would spread rumors regarding war and peace. Simple-minded Muslims would believe these rumors and exacerbate the situation, creating an atmosphere of insecurity and panic in the city. The verse quoted above prevented Muslims from taking this approach and advised them to refer news of war and peace to those of Amr and not to spread rumors. Thus, capable individuals investigating the rumors would be able to reach the truth of the issue and inform others concerned. The role of the lay person was not to take any action except to refer such rumors and reports to those of Amr.
Although this verse was revealed for a specific reason - it is very well established in the principles of Tafseer and jurisprudence that in extracting rules and laws from specific circumstances of revelation, the specific details gives way to the general meaning of the text - such a general principle is contained in the verse quoted above. The principle is that: Those who do not possess the tools of investigation should refer to those who can. This is precisely Taqleed.
Imam Razi writes concerning this verse:
"So it is established that Istinbaat [the legal process of extracting rules from the Quran and Sunnah] is a proof. Analogy is either Istinbaat in itself or is included in it. So analogy (Qiyas) should also be a proof. This verse denotes several rules. The first is that there are some incidents and issues, which are not apparent from (Divine) text. The second is that Istinbaat is a proof. The third is that a lay person should follow scholars in the rules of events and in issues"
"....If a contingent from every expedition remained behind in order to understand religion (Deen), and so that they could admonish their people when they return to them (from war) that thus they (may learn to) guard themselves (against evil)." (Surah Al-Taubah : 122)
The verse supports that not all Muslims should go out and become preoccupied in jihad. There should be a group who devote themselves exclusively to learning and understand Deen so that they can teach Islamic rules and regulations to those who are not able to dedicate themselves to learning. This verse has ordered those who learn and understand, to impart knowledge of Islamic law to others and it has also instructed others to act upon the instructions to avoid the disobedience of Allah. Imam Abu Bakr Jassas comments on this verse:
"So Allah has commanded people ( who do not learn ) to take heed of the scholars' warnings and to act upon their advice."
"....So, if you do not know, ask those of remembrance." (Surah Al Nahl:43)
There is an academic principle in this verse, which is that those who are not experts in a field should resort to seeking advice from those who are and act accordingly.
Shaykh Aloosi writes in the commentary of this verse:
"This verse has been used to prove that referring to scholars is necessary in cases where one does not have knowledge of the issue in question. Imam Suyuti in his `Ikleel' writes that this verse has been used to prove the point that the lay person may follow another Imam [Make Taqleed of] in details of Islamic Law."
Evidence from the Sunnah about following Scholars:
Hudaifah said that the Prophet sallalahu alaihi wa sallam said "I do not know how long I will remain with you. So follow these two people (Who will remain) after me : Abu Bakr and Omar." (Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and Ahmed)
The following Hadith narrated during the last moments of the Prophet's life is ample proof of this approach (following people of knowledge):
"Abu Bakr was following the prayer of the Prophet and people were following the prayer of Abu Bakr." (Bukhari)
Abdullah ibn Amr narrated that the Prophet sallalahu alaihi wa sallam said:
"Allah will not snatch away knowledge abruptly from people, but rather He will snatch knowledge by removing scholars. This will happen to the extent that when no scholar remains, people will take ignorant leaders as their guides. These leaders will be asked and they will give opinions (Fatwas) without knowledge. So they will be misguided and they will misguide." (Bukhari and Muslim)
Source: 'The Legal Status of Following a Madhhab' by Mufti Taqi Usmani
Is that enough Aamer?
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seeking4truth
Active Member
Although understanding the context in which verses were revealed is interesting and can be informative please remember the difference between the Holy Quran and the Haddith is that the Holy Quran is GOD's word protected and available for the guidance of all.
It is not a history book but is very relevant for our guidance today and we have to apply it to our own situation wherever we live.
It is not a history book but is very relevant for our guidance today and we have to apply it to our own situation wherever we live.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
Right, why don't you post another verse, twisting it's meaning in the process, and show me how I am wrong.
Aamer
Truth Seeker
I guess we differ on who is twisting the meaning. The word scholar or priest or clergy is not even mentioned in Quran, except when God is talking about the mistakes of past people and how people set them up as partners to God. You mentioned 4:59, implying that those in authority amongst you are religious scholars. But you didn't mention 4:58
[4:58] God orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that God prescribes for you. God is Hearer, Seer.
This is clearly talking about distribution of wealth and how to handle disputes. Nowhere here is Allah giving scholars or priests the right to change or add to Gods laws. I love how the scholars took the liberty to assume these verses mean they can enforce the killing of apostates when God made no such law. It's just amazing how they twist words to their advantage. And no, obey the messenger does NOT mean obey Bukhari and accept whatever 6 Persians claim he allegedly said. Simply amazing. The Muslim clerics are the Jewish pharisees all over again. Do you really not see it or are you pretending not to see it because you don't want to admit that the truth?
Challenge: I can provide sufficient evidence to prove that Quran is the word of God.
Can you prove that Bukhari & "Sahih" Hadith is really the word of Muhammad?
Doesn't matter what period it is from. Allah swt is clear in thye Holy Qur'an. We fight those who FIGHT US. We are at peace with those who wish PEACE WITH US. It's not about whether they believe or disbelieve.
"Fight those that fight you in matters of religion."
The point is that when people attack us we should not be afriad to retaliate but we should be men and protect ourselves, families, women and rights to believe as we choose. That's all the Holy Qur'an is saying.
In our religon it says Whoever takes an innocent life it is as if he had killed the whole of mankind. The Holy Qur'an says there is no compulsory in religion. The Holy says continuously what to do with those who disbelieve and nothing is every violent unless it's the disbelievers ATTACKING US and merely because we are muslims who believe in Allah swt.
"Fight those that fight you in matters of religion."
The point is that when people attack us we should not be afriad to retaliate but we should be men and protect ourselves, families, women and rights to believe as we choose. That's all the Holy Qur'an is saying.
In our religon it says Whoever takes an innocent life it is as if he had killed the whole of mankind. The Holy Qur'an says there is no compulsory in religion. The Holy says continuously what to do with those who disbelieve and nothing is every violent unless it's the disbelievers ATTACKING US and merely because we are muslims who believe in Allah swt.
There is a complete chapter in the Holy Qur'an regarding "disbelievers".
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Aamer
Truth Seeker
Hazrat ,
You're making too much sense. You will get attacked and be accused of being a kaffir here for making too much sense. But you speak the truth brother. If the apostate wants to kill you, by all means, fight him. Defend yourself, defend your family, defend your home. But if he simply renounces Islam, it's between him and Allah. Who are we to take his life? I don't care what any scholar says. I only care what Allah says. And Allah is clear. There is no doubt. Peace!
You're making too much sense. You will get attacked and be accused of being a kaffir here for making too much sense. But you speak the truth brother. If the apostate wants to kill you, by all means, fight him. Defend yourself, defend your family, defend your home. But if he simply renounces Islam, it's between him and Allah. Who are we to take his life? I don't care what any scholar says. I only care what Allah says. And Allah is clear. There is no doubt. Peace!
I also agree that the Holy Quran is very clear in stating that anyone has the complete freedom in believing in the religion they want. The affirmation of that right is very clear in many verses of the Holy Quran
Unfortunately, a lot of people confuse between war of apostasy and the concept of freedom of religion in Islam. The war of apostasy started because many Arab tribes rebelled against the new born Islamic state and threatened its very existence. Now just think about what any nation today would do if a local resistance in that nation rose arms and threatened its existence.
Unfortunately, a lot of people confuse between war of apostasy and the concept of freedom of religion in Islam. The war of apostasy started because many Arab tribes rebelled against the new born Islamic state and threatened its very existence. Now just think about what any nation today would do if a local resistance in that nation rose arms and threatened its existence.
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How can you know a truth if you are not allowed complete freedom of conscience to investigate different truths and submit to the one you think is most truthful?
Basically what proponents of punishment for apostasy are saying is that there should be no freedom to ponder and investigate other truths. Because without full freedom of conscience that is the only conclusion. Unless you want to make the argument that "you can investigate and adopt another truth but that just means you will be executed". Which is obviously a joke.
Second question is why people who are Muslim merely cuz they are born from parents who happen to be from a region/country where they are Muslims and the Muslim child itself had no influence whatsoever on will have to be executed once he/she stops believing in the religion that was taught to him/her from childhood..... no sane person would argue that is just. And justice is something all religions claim to stand up for including Islam.
A religion or holy book that is full of verses trying to convince the reader/listener of a certain truth but does not ascribe to full freedom of conscience itself is 100% unjust and its principles mean nothing. Its a joke basically.
Basically what proponents of punishment for apostasy are saying is that there should be no freedom to ponder and investigate other truths. Because without full freedom of conscience that is the only conclusion. Unless you want to make the argument that "you can investigate and adopt another truth but that just means you will be executed". Which is obviously a joke.
Second question is why people who are Muslim merely cuz they are born from parents who happen to be from a region/country where they are Muslims and the Muslim child itself had no influence whatsoever on will have to be executed once he/she stops believing in the religion that was taught to him/her from childhood..... no sane person would argue that is just. And justice is something all religions claim to stand up for including Islam.
A religion or holy book that is full of verses trying to convince the reader/listener of a certain truth but does not ascribe to full freedom of conscience itself is 100% unjust and its principles mean nothing. Its a joke basically.
faroukfarouk
Active Member
Assalamu alaykum brothers.
A very interesting subject indeed.
From the first twelve centuries after the demise of our beloved Prophet (SAW) the Ummah was unanimous regarding the question on apostasy.
After the ending of the nineteenth century there was doubt by sects within Islam on this question.Why?
Islamic Jurisprudence was completed when the following verse was revealed.
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion"
The above verse was revealed on a Friday in Arafat and the meaning of the above verse simply meant that Islamic Jurisprudence(law) was completed and no more laws was to be revealed.Although more verses of the Noble Quraan was revealed but non of those verses had anything to do with Islamic Law.My point that i want to put across is that no one (be it a modernist scholar or a most pious person) will be able to change any of the laws that was revealed to our beloved Prophet(SAW) simply because those laws are from Allah.Now if anyone refuses to accept those revealed laws then he simply is not in Islam and is following his own man made religion.
Note the first generation of Muslims produced more than 100 Imams.Let me repeat that the first generation of Muslims produced more than 100 Imams and all Imams were unanimous regarding apostasy law in Islam.Note non of the Imams penned these laws on their own understanding but they,the Imams,sat in the company of thousands of learned scholars.
My question to all that oppose apostasy law.
Did the first generation of Imams that penned Islamic Jurisprudence on apostasy deviate from the path of our beloved Prophet(SAW)?
Please keep in mind that these Imams took their teachings from the Sahabas.
Salaams
faroukfarouk
A very interesting subject indeed.
From the first twelve centuries after the demise of our beloved Prophet (SAW) the Ummah was unanimous regarding the question on apostasy.
After the ending of the nineteenth century there was doubt by sects within Islam on this question.Why?
Islamic Jurisprudence was completed when the following verse was revealed.
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion"
The above verse was revealed on a Friday in Arafat and the meaning of the above verse simply meant that Islamic Jurisprudence(law) was completed and no more laws was to be revealed.Although more verses of the Noble Quraan was revealed but non of those verses had anything to do with Islamic Law.My point that i want to put across is that no one (be it a modernist scholar or a most pious person) will be able to change any of the laws that was revealed to our beloved Prophet(SAW) simply because those laws are from Allah.Now if anyone refuses to accept those revealed laws then he simply is not in Islam and is following his own man made religion.
Note the first generation of Muslims produced more than 100 Imams.Let me repeat that the first generation of Muslims produced more than 100 Imams and all Imams were unanimous regarding apostasy law in Islam.Note non of the Imams penned these laws on their own understanding but they,the Imams,sat in the company of thousands of learned scholars.
My question to all that oppose apostasy law.
Did the first generation of Imams that penned Islamic Jurisprudence on apostasy deviate from the path of our beloved Prophet(SAW)?
Please keep in mind that these Imams took their teachings from the Sahabas.
Salaams
faroukfarouk
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is apostasy a capital crime in Islam?
No.
Regards
No.
Regards