Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave

[Gharib]

This whole thread is a giant hypocrasy.

I agree, it shows a great deal of desperateness of a man who is seeking to elevate his own book at the expense of the Qur'an. No offence, but wasn't the Bible the book that taught Christians that science was from the devil? That's what I've heard anyway.

 

[JacobEzra.]

No it isn't from the Bible. I jumbled a bunch of random verses together from different books of the Bible to illustrate how the Koran reads to me.

For Jacob: teachers often employ a tool called "illustrations" to help people who can't visualize or grasp something understand what's trying to be communicated which is exactly what my hodge podge of Bible verses was. Perfect examples of illustrations would be the parables of Jesus that you would've read when you were Catholic. I'm trying to communicate to Muslims how someone who didn't have their theological glasses polished by imans and clerics sees the Koran. If I'd quoted a surah as an example our Muslim brothers would read it in the way they've been trained and so would fail to see it how I see it.

I've read bits of the Quran. Its not anything how you made it seem.

 

[Caladan]

This is what i have come to learn so far:
Firstly, you agreed with Junglej and said that the book was difficult and how I should be worried that other Muslims who read it in other than the Arabic language might also find difficulty in reading it and understanding it.

Then you said that you understand it in English as well as in Hebrew, but what the problem that you have is that you don't like it as a book because of it's condemnation of disbelievers and the threat of hell towards them.

So I have to ask you now, is it the book that's difficult and makes no sense or is it you that just don't like the content? Or is it both?

Since you have such a hard time deciphering what I personally think are pretty simple posts, I'll consider creating a thread about my critical reading of the Qur'an, it may take a while until I get to it, but I'll try and make the effort.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I agree, it shows a great deal of desperateness of a man who is seeking to elevate his own book at the expense of the Qur'an. No offence, but wasn't the Bible the book that taught Christians that science was from the devil? That's what I've heard anyway.

No, it is not the book that taught Christians that science was from the devil.

I say both books are equally valuable. In all, they both are just historic text, its the believer who gives it any value over any other book.

Neither books have overwhelming evidence of this "greatness" that people seem to attribute to it. Its why its called a "faith". There is no proof that Moses talked to a bush on fire, or that Jesus walked on water, or that Mohammed talked to an angel in a cave, etc.

 

[Gharib]

Since you have such a hard time deciphering what I personally think are pretty simple posts, I'll consider creating a thread about my critical reading of the Qur'an, it may take a while until I get to it, but I'll try and make the effort.

So what I said was not true?

I'm gonna be away for about 2 weeks. Post me the link if you don't mind once you open the thread while I'm gone.

 

[Gharib]

No, it is not the book that taught Christians that science was from the devil.

I say both books are equally valuable. In all, they both are just historic text, its the believer who gives it any value over any other book.

Neither books have overwhelming evidence of this "greatness" that people seem to attribute to it. Its why its called a "faith". There is no proof that Moses talked to a bush on fire, or that Jesus walked on water, or that Mohammed talked to an angel in a cave, etc.

Maybe some of the things which all three Prophets did were not witnessed by men, however, many other 'miracles' were and their testimony testifies to their greatness.

People saw how with the help of God, Moses divided the sea. Just as they saw how Jesus gave sight to a blind man, and how Muhammed had an almost empty water jug of leather overflow with water for his companions to make ablution and still be full (no wells being around). All these cases were witnessed by men, but because they happened so long ago we take them to be mythical stories. In a thousand years is it going to be a mythical story to say that in 1969 men went to the moon?

 

[JacobEzra.]

Maybe some of the things which all three Prophets did were not witnessed by men, however, many other 'miracles' were and their testimony testifies to their greatness.

People saw how with the help of God, Moses divided the sea. Just as they saw how Jesus gave sight to a blind man, and how Muhammed had an almost empty water jug of leather overflow with water for his companions to make ablution and still be full (no wells being around). All these cases were witnessed by men, but because they happened so long ago we take them to be mythical stories. In a thousand years is it going to be a mythical story to say that in 1969 men went to the moon?

1969 was documented

But these events described in these books are not documented. There is no overwhelming evidence for them. But try and say the Twin Towers were a myth, we have pictures, videos, etc of them before and after. Big difference.

 

[Gharib]

1969 was documented

But these events described in these books are not documented. There is no overwhelming evidence for them. But try and say the Twin Towers were a myth, we have pictures, videos, etc of them before and after. Big difference.

So a mans written testimony is good for nothing?

If we say that a written or confessed testimony doesn't suffice as evidence because we have a better method of presenting evidence, then the same can be said about photographs and video recordings in 1000 years.

 

[JacobEzra.]

So a mans written testimony is good for nothing?

If we say that a written or confessed testimony doesn't suffice as evidence because we have a better method of presenting evidence, then the same can be said about photographs and video recordings in 1000 years.

Alright mate.

Elijah zipped up into a chariot on fire is as believable as the photo of me being in St. Louis two days ago.

You never thought that tales written never carry extra, exaggerated elements?

 

[Gharib]

Alright mate.

Elijah zipped up into a chariot on fire is as believable as the photo of me being in St. Louis two days ago.

You never thought that tales written never carry extra, exaggerated elements?

I could find plenty of cases with plenty of exaggeration and even more than half of what is said to be made up. That's not the point though, just as Photoshopping a few dozen pictures of you having visited the worlds capital cities isn't.

I mean trusted testimonies which were well witnessed by many, like the examples I gave before. Jesus did heal a blind man with the help of God. It was witnessed.

 

[heretic]

Can anyone prove their book is legit?

Yes, and should be able to prove a book is legit , this what makes people trust in a book and follow it , if not then it doesn't worth to follow and apply it at all.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Yes, and should be able to prove a book is legit , this what makes people trust in a book and follow it , if not then it doesn't worth to follow and apply it at all.

Yet there are thousands of different religions.

Not even going to get into the many different beliefs in even one single religion steming from Abrahamic religions

But no. There is one book most legit. One way most true! (Now allow me to conform)

 

[gnostic]

I could find plenty of cases with plenty of exaggeration and even more than half of what is said to be made up. That's not the point though, just as Photoshopping a few dozen pictures of you having visited the worlds capital cities isn't.

I mean trusted testimonies which were well witnessed by many, like the examples I gave before. Jesus did heal a blind man with the help of God. It was witnessed.

And the topic's subject line?

Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave​

Who witnessed Gabriel visiting Muhammad?

We only have Muhammad's claim that such-and-such took place. To anyone else who are not Muslims or Baba'i would view such a claim from a person as "exaggeration".

So which of the "trusted testimonies" from Muhammad's disciples/followers had witness this taking place?

Another example, found briefly in the Qur'an and further in one of the hadiths, speak of Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem on a magical steed - Buraq -which was follow by his journey to heavens, like Enoch, in the books of Enoch.

Is it an actual physical journeys? Or a metaphor?

I would see this simply as exaggeration, but I don't know you or other Muslims see it. Do you take it literally?

 

[England my lionheart]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

I think it would be compelling to Arabs because they were being told that they were special,even God spoke Arabic and as Booty was allowed to be taken and all that comes with "what your right hand posesses" i think he was on a winner even though it was a rocky start.

 

[Gharib]

And the topic's subject line?


Who witnessed Gabriel visiting Muhammad?

We only have Muhammad's claim that such-and-such took place. To anyone else who are not Muslims or Baba'i would view such a claim from a person as "exaggeration".

So which of the "trusted testimonies" from Muhammad's disciples/followers had witness this taking place?

Another example, found briefly in the Qur'an and further in one of the hadiths, speak of Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem on a magical steed - Buraq -which was follow by his journey to heavens, like Enoch, in the books of Enoch.

Is it an actual physical journeys? Or a metaphor?

I would see this simply as exaggeration, but I don't know you or other Muslims see it. Do you take it literally?

You didn't read all my posts relevant to the one you quoted. They should answer your questions.

 

[Gharib]

I think it would be compelling to Arabs because they were being told that they were special,even God spoke Arabic and as Booty was allowed to be taken and all that comes with "what your right hand posesses" i think he was on a winner even though it was a rocky start.

Nowhere were Arabs told that they are special, to the contrary the Qur'an says all are equal, there were men who were once slaves and were black in colour, and yet achieved a higher status in the Islamic community than their "special" Arab brothers. Do prove me wrong though is you think I'm lying.

 

[markymark]

How is this different from the historicity of the Prophet Mohammed, also witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people, and how is that different from the Quran also coming down through time and passing the "authentication" test?

You didn't explain how you're supposed to know your Biblical account is written by a good God rather than an evil demon, either. You just pointed out that some historical events are testified to in the Bible and that we can authenticate the ages of various Bibles. (The same is true for the Quran, by the way)

Also, no one is disputing the historical events: for instance we know now there was a real and literal city of Troy, but that doesn't mean the Illiad was true or that a literal Achilles was stabbed in the heel by a literal giant scorpion, either. How much have you thought on these issues?

can you proof the bible is false or that Jesus did not existed

 

[markymark]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

personally i believe Mohammed was a false prophet as he did not preform one recorded miracle

 

[loverOfTruth]

personally i believe Mohammed was a false prophet as he did not preform one recorded miracle

I am not sure which 'record' were you checking for Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) miracles - you certainly won't find it in the Bible .

I really don't know how shamelessly you come up with these baseless claims. See the 'recorded' miracles here : Miracles of the Holy Prophet Muhammad

 

[Gharib]

personally i believe Mohammed was a false prophet as he did not preform one recorded miracle

That's big time hypocrisy. But if it makes you happy then OK.