Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave

[-Peacemaker-]

I am a Muslim and i will reply on this.

Your question is easily answered Mohammed(saws) himself taught it was a spirit/devil at first hand because in the time of Mohammed(saws) were he grew up Mecca (around pagans) they taught everything Super-natural had to do with Spirits or Devils so he assumed the same thing this is what he taught before. Now he went to hes wife and she assured them it was no devil, then Mohammed(saws) went to Christians to ask for the same thing but they assured him it was a Angel... See the Irony?

And i am pretty sure a devil wouldn't say that Jesus(p) is the messiah and one of the best messenger ever who lives, i am also sure a devil would not say that Marry(p) is the most righteous woman on earth even if the Jews were looking down on the arabs he still uphold the Jewish prophets in glory why??? Because he was commanded to say these things


Ps: I am willing to debate if mohammed(saws) is indeed prophesied in the new-testament

From a Christian perspective, salvation/forgiveness is found by believing Jesus is the Lord and submitting to him accordingly. The Devil would love to do anything possible to steer people away from that.

 

[Iti oj]

maybe Satan has really pulled the wool over our eyes and all your religions are false.

 

[F0uad]

From a Christian perspective, salvation/forgiveness is found by believing Jesus is the Lord and submitting to him accordingly. The Devil would love to do anything possible to steer people away from that.

Now your insisting Christian Perspectives into it, we can say the same that the devil makes you belief in three different individuals who are all three god therefore leading you away to paganism. Or i can simply say your Books have been changed/altered and you don't even have copies of copies.

And i can even show that the Bible is not 100% of god by simply referring you to my previous topics.


You maybe want also understand that you cannot go off-topic when you want to, now its funny how you didn't saw the irony in what i told you.


Maybe you want also to look into your scriptures where Jesus(p) says the things you said i am pretty sure your just telescoping Paul who killed early Christians according to your own scriptures who never met Jesus(p) according to your own scriptures only in a vision he had only according to him.


Ps: The Sacrifice on the cross makes no sense so don't tell me to belief in something what makes no sense why do you think where Christianity was once high (west) most turned into Atheist because the religion didn't make sense and it would also directly contradict your own scriptures.

 

[F0uad]

maybe Satan has really pulled the wool over our eyes and all your religions are false.

Hmm and maybe Athesim is, please we do not need a new topic where Atheist are included talking about Anti-God theory's

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

Why is it less believable that an angel spoke to Muhammad in a cave with no other witnesses than it is that God spoke to Moses on the top of a mountain with no other witnesses?

 

[gnostic]

Yes, 124,000. Only 25 are mentioned by name in the Qur'an

Where did you get the number 124,000?

Even if you count all the prophets in the Old Testament and New Testament Bible together, and include the prophetesses, it would still be less than 100. Not even if you count Jesus, Ishmael and Muhammad. Not even if you count all the patriarchs prior to Abraham, you still wouldn't reach 100.

So I am wondering where this 124,000 prophets come from?

 

[JacobEzra.]

Islam and Judaism make no more sense then christianity. Id also point out that western atheism isn't much a valid point. Secularism has yet to reach Islamic countries. And of corse the threat of violence is a varible to. Id also like to make note that Quran can hardly be proven to be from God anymore then Torah or Gospel, or anyother religious text which claim such.


So really, this whole "my religion is better then yours" is nonsense.

Now your insisting Christian Perspectives into it, we can say the same that the devil makes you belief in three different individuals who are all three god therefore leading you away to paganism. Or i can simply say your Books have been changed/altered and you don't even have copies of copies.

And i can even show that the Bible is not 100% of god by simply referring you to my previous topics.


You maybe want also understand that you cannot go off-topic when you want to, now its funny how you didn't saw the irony in what i told you.


Maybe you want also to look into your scriptures where Jesus(p) says the things you said i am pretty sure your just telescoping Paul who killed early Christians according to your own scriptures who never met Jesus(p) according to your own scriptures only in a vision he had only according to him.


Ps: The Sacrifice on the cross makes no sense so don't tell me to belief in something what makes no sense why do you think where Christianity was once high (west) most turned into Atheist because the religion didn't make sense and it would also directly contradict your own scriptures.

 

[JacobEzra.]

maybe Satan has really pulled the wool over our eyes and all your religions are false.

Lol. The discord and past violence due to these arguments, id say you may be on to something.

 

[Iti oj]

Lol. The discord and past violence due to these arguments, id say you may be on to something.

the devil is never any more evil then when he appears to be the angel of light

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Ps: The Sacrifice on the cross makes no sense so don't tell me to belief in something what makes no sense why do you think where Christianity was once high (west) most turned into Atheist because the religion didn't make sense and it would also directly contradict your own scriptures.

Is checking to see if something makes sense to you the ultimate standard by which we judge truth? You do read the Torah don't you? Remember the sacraficial system God set up with animals? The Christian pov is that God did that precisely to prepare mankind for the concept of sacrafice to pay for sins which we believe the life of Jesus is the ultimate model of.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Keep in mind that the Bible is simply a collection of smaller "books" that the church decided to compile long after each one was originally written. The Gospels were each written by a different author, in a different place, to a different audience.Your comparison of the repetition found in the Koran to the Bible only works if we compare it to each individual book of the Bible.

That's like saying it is sufficient to look at one of the books and ignore the others since looking at the whole thing together will be admitting repetitions with inconsistencies (as I have shown you). That means the entire Bible(as a whole) is not the inspired word of God. Otherwise, how could you just ignore some part of it ? Thanks for your honesty . See what the Qur'an says about that : "Are they then unaware that Allah(God) knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim? Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah(God)," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby." (Al-Qur'an 2:77-79)

So now can you tell me which parts are from God and which parts are not ? And since they are geared towards different audiences, could you tell me which one is targeted for you ?

We could charge the Gospels with repetition if say the book of Matthew or John each repeated the story of the donkey ride into Jerusalem 10 times in the same book.

Once again for argument's sake, I'll give you that too (even though I don't buy that argument because then you are essentially not considering the entire bible as word of God). Regarding Jesus’ Testimony : what did Jesus(pbuh) say about bearing his own witness?

If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.(John 5:31)
Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid (John 8:14)

Reference : John 5 NIV - The Healing at the Pool - Some time - Bible Gateway
John 8 NIV - but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. - Bible Gateway

Again repetition in the same Gospel(John) and they are inconsistent
.

 

[loverOfTruth]

There's nothing superhuman about repeating a phrase in different wording, so it could very well have been written by a human being. There have been many works written by humans that are extremely detailed and planned.

I would agree with you if it only happened once or twice in the entire book. However, the literary miraculous aspect of the Qur'an comes from the perfection in choosing the words, context, tense, eloquence, style etc. and so many other linguistic features such as transitioning from poetry to prose and vice versa. And all those while maintaining the beautiful rhyme/rythm (of course in its original language Arabic).

I do not want to derail this thread. So I would point you to the following post I wrote which also mentions about the humanly impossible planning of the way the Qur'an is. You can read more about the literary miracle of the Qur'an in the following post:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2854170-post286.html

 

[-Peacemaker-]

That's like saying it is sufficient to look at one of the books and ignore the others since looking at the whole thing together will be admitting repetitions with inconsistencies (as I have shown you). That means the entire Bible(as a whole) is not the inspired word of God. Otherwise, how could you just ignore some part of it ? Thanks for your honesty . See what the Qur'an says about that : "Are they then unaware that Allah(God) knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim? Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah(God)," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby." (Al-Qur'an 2:77-79)

So now can you tell me which parts are from God and which parts are not ? And since they are geared towards different audiences, could you tell me which one is targeted for you ?



Once again for argument's sake, I'll give you that too (even though I don't buy that argument because then you are essentially not considering the entire bible as word of God). Regarding Jesus’ Testimony : what did Jesus(pbuh) say about bearing his own witness?

If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.(John 5:31)
Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid (John 8:14)

Reference : John 5 NIV - The Healing at the Pool - Some time - Bible Gateway
John 8 NIV - but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. - Bible Gateway

Again repetition in the same Gospel(John) and they are inconsistent
.

You've got to understand that the Gospels aren't presented in the same way as the Koran. The Koran was allegedly dictated to Mohammed by an angel. The Gospels on the other hand are presented as eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life. That being the case it could be argued that small divergences on minor details indicates that there was no conspiring among the eyewitness to create a hoax.


Luke 1:1-4 1:1 Since many have undertaken to arrange in proper order an account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as from the beginning the eyewitnesses and those becoming ministers of the Word handed down to us, 3 so also it seemed good to me, accurately following and investigating everything from the first, to write to you in order (an account), most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the words (of the gospel) you have been taught

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'll try to explain the comparison of the "repetition" found in the Gospels compared to the Koran. In the Bible we have 4 versions of Jesus' life presented by four different authors each with their own audience. This was not a case of the writers coming together and agreeing to just repeat things for the sake of repeating. Do you guys understand that these were originally four separate literary works that were compiled years later by the church into one large collection called the Bible. The Koran on the other hand tells the story of Moses 39 times. That is the type of repetition ad naseum that I'm talking about.

 

[Gharib]

Where did you get the number 124,000?

Even if you count all the prophets in the Old Testament and New Testament Bible together, and include the prophetesses, it would still be less than 100. Not even if you count Jesus, Ishmael and Muhammad. Not even if you count all the patriarchs prior to Abraham, you still wouldn't reach 100.

So I am wondering where this 124,000 prophets come from?

Actually i think the scholars consider that hadith which mentions 124,000 prophets to be weak, but here's a link on the matter.

List of the Prophets' Names - Muslim Belief - counsels - OnIslam.net

 

[Gharib]

I'll try to explain the comparison of the "repetition" found in the Gospels compared to the Koran. In the Bible we have 4 versions of Jesus' life presented by four different authors each with their own audience. This was not a case of the writers coming together and agreeing to just repeat things for the sake of repeating. Do you guys understand that these were originally four separate literary works that were compiled years later by the church into one large collection called the Bible. The Koran on the other hand tells the story of Moses 39 times. That is the type of repetition ad naseum that I'm talking about.

The repetition of verses in the Qur'an are no different to the repetitions of the Bible. Are you seriously trying to tell me that in each of those books, there is no repetition of the same word or meaning of something or example twice?

And it seems your Bible isn't as infallible as you may think if the books in it contradict each other, you have one saying that Jesus is the Father, and you have another saying that the Lord is his father and our father, those are quite big leaps from one meaning to another.

Or what about the scenario of the Romans coming to arrest Jesus, all the 4 major books, (Paul, John, Mathew, Luke) tell it differently, it sound like just random words coming out of the Apostles.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The repetition of verses in the Qur'an are no different to the repetitions of the Bible. Are you seriously trying to tell me that in each of those books, there is no repetition of the same word or meaning of something or example twice?

And it seems your Bible isn't as infallible as you may think if the books in it contradict each other, you have one saying that Jesus is the Father, and you have another saying that the Lord is his father and our father, those are quite big leaps from one meaning to another.

Or what about the scenario of the Romans coming to arrest Jesus, all the 4 major books, (Paul, John, Mathew, Luke) tell it differently, it sound like just random words coming out of the Apostles.

Again, the Gospels were based off eyewitness accounts that had existed in oral tradition for some 20 or more years before being written down. If there were no minor divergencies we would argue that there was a conspiracy among the writers. No one has claimed the Gospels were DICTATED by an angel or God or anyone else.

 

[Gharib]

Again, the Gospels were based off eyewitness accounts that had existed in oral tradition for some 20 or more years before being written down. If there were no minor divergencies we would argue that there was a conspiracy among the writers. No one has claimed the Gospels were DICTATED by an angel or God or anyone else.

So in other words the Bible contains what Muslims call, alterations of the Scripture sent down to Jesus?

Or are the Gospels like what Muslims call Hadith books?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So in other words the Bible contains what Muslims call, alterations of the Scripture sent down to Jesus?

Or are the Gospels like what Muslims call Hadith books?

Is an eyewitness account of someone's life really a scripture in the way I think you're using the word? Yes, the Gospels record Jesus' teaching but they also record the events of his birth, life, and death. I think it's more helpful to view the Gospels as four separate biographies. FWIW, the divergencies in Gospels are usually about over very trivial facts like the number of people present at a certain event, not whether or not he commanded us to love our neighbor. They are divergencies you'd expect from eyewitness accouts from many different sources that were many years old. When it comes to the Gospels, you have to understand that there was a very natural process taking place of compiling actual eyewitness accounts. Yes we believe God was a part of that and was working throught the authors but we don't believe he dictated the Gospels to Matt, Mark, Luke, and John

 

[Gharib]

Is an eyewitness account of someone's life really a scripture in the way I think you're using the word? Yes, the Gospels record Jesus' teaching but they also record the events of his birth, life, and death. FWIW, the divergencies in Gospels are usually about over very trivial facts like the number of people present at a certain event, not whether or not he commanded us to love our neighbor. They are divergencies you'd expect from eyewitness accouts from many different sources that were many years old. When it comes to the Gospels, you have to understand that there was a very natural process taking place of compiling actual eyewitness accounts. Yes we believe God was a part of that and was working throught the authors but we don't believe he dictated the Gospels to Matt, Mark, Luke, and John

Ok I can understand that, we have such cases with the Hadith of the Prophet also. But what about the repetitions?

And you are yet to give an example from the Qur'an. It's been days.