Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave

[payak]

A bit different. The story of Moses involves hundreds of thousands of alleged witnesses.

so many thousand followed moses out of egypt yet archeologist can find nothing, they wandered for years, thousands of them and never left a trace.

in reality they would have tired in a matter of days and turned on a man who was leading them for so long and they still had not reached anywhere, lets be realistic.

and such a huge event as this fleeing from the egyptians, yet there are no recordings of by the egyptians, or are there.

 

[Shermana]

so many thousand followed moses out of egypt yet archeologist can find nothing, they wandered for years, thousands of them and never left a trace.

in reality they would have tired in a matter of days and turned on a man who was leading them for so long and they still had not reached anywhere, lets be realistic.

and such a huge event as this fleeing from the egyptians, yet there are no recordings of by the egyptians, or are there.

There's the Ipuwer Papyrus, the "Egyptologists" who call it "metaphorical" are just scrambling for a defense without much basis.

Have you actually even read the account? They DID get tired and turn on him, many times.

 

[mr black]

as opposed to...

moses? the jewish people at mount sinai?

john the baptist and jesus, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, with the holy spirit descending on jesus, and a voice from heaven proclaiming him as god's son?

paul of tarsus on the road to damascus... ???

if you go for *any* of the above, you might as well go all the way ^^ but I appreciate the irony, of course.

Or Jacob wrestling with an angel for a week and a half? Is that right?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There's the Ipuwer Papyrus, the "Egyptologists" who call it "metaphorical" are just scrambling for a defense without much basis.

Have you actually even read the account? They DID get tired and turn on him, many times.

The "evidence" is circumstantial at best. Scholars for the supposed Exodus have varying dates.

Like the "Creation Myth" and the "Flood Myth".. there's no telling whether the story recorded in the bible was a plagiarized story. Additionally, the events that were described can be attributed to natural phenomenon.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

Christianity/the worship of Jesus, is at the very least built on historical events witnessed by hundreds and thousands of people. Those eyewitness accounts are what the Gospels are based on. The interesting thing is these accounts would be taught in history class if the events weren't so "out of the ordinary" or sound so "outlandish" to some. That's how strong the evidence exists in the form of the manuscripts left behind. Using accepted practices of authenticating ancient documents, the Gospels easily pass the test. People toss them out because the account doesn't jive with a "naturalistic" world view

Since we are here to critique and learn from others' arguments and experiences, I would ask you to listen to the following lecture by Dr. Jerald F. Dirks that shows even early christians had quite a different take on the doctrines of Christianity. Dr. Dirks has a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.

[youtube]2m4KW-dysKk[/youtube]
From Jesus to Muhammad: A History of Early Christianity - YouTube

Peace and I mean no offense or disrespect to you or your faith. It is just for the sake of learning and constructive criticism we discuss the facts.

 

[arthra]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

I'm not a Muslim but in my faith we accept that the angel or Gabriel mentioned as being a symbol of revelation to Prophet Muhammad is like the dove symbolizing the Holy Spirit when Christ was baptized by John the Baptist:

"...that same Spirit which, in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations, had been respectively symbolized by the "Sacred Fire," the "Burning Bush," the "Dove," and the "Angel Gabriel."

(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to America, p. 100)


Waraqa a Christian and relative of Khadijih suggests this in Hadith:

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin
Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza,
who, during the PreIslamic Period became a
Christian and used to write the writing with
Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel
in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.

He was an old man and had lost his eyesight.
Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of
your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O
my nephew! What have you seen?"

Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said,

"This is the same one who keeps
the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent
to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up
to the time when your people would turn you
out."

Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me
out?"

Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said,
"Anyone (man) who came with something similar
to what you have brought was treated with
hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day
when you will be turned out then I would support
you strongly."

But after a few days Waraqa died
and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a
while.

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)

Surih 10:94: "And if thou art in doubt as to what we have sent down to thee, inquire at those who have read the Scriptures before thee."

 

[obi one]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

Why is Paul's testimony so much of an influence on you? He saw an angel of light, and you follow him. Constantine, the Great King of Rome, saw an angel of light, and you follow the doctrines of the church he established, the Roman Church. Ananias, had a dream about Paul, and therefore you accept it as true. Caesar saw an angel of light, and went on to cross the Rubicon. Where are the witnesses? According to Yeshua, Mt 18:16 (Dt 19:15) none of these events can be established.

Muhammed, Paul, Constantine, etc. all saw angels of light, whereas you follow two of the 3 listed. Maybe you should start questioning your own assumptions.

 

[Marble]

I think it is not so much important what someone claims to have heard or read, or what other people say about that person.
For me what really counts is what a person does.
So when I take a look on the life of Mohammed, I see a man who fought with sword in hand.
And when I take a look on the life of Jesus, I see a man who rather let himself be killed than to fight.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I think it is not so much important what someone claims to have heard or read, or what other people say about that person.
For me what really counts is what a person does.
So when I take a look on the life of Mohammed, I see a man who fought with sword in hand.
And when I take a look on the life of Jesus, I see a man who rather let himself be killed than to fight.

Do you consider the following excluded from the life of Jesus(pbuh) ?
This is the instruction, according to the Bible(Matthew 10:34-36) , Jesus(pbuh) gave to his twelve disciples :
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

Or was he not a man of his words ?

I suggest you read about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) before making such comments. The following is written by a non-muslim.
The Simple Message of GOD: About Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) - By a non-muslim

By the way, I don't believe either Muhammad(pbuh) or Jesus(pbuh) ever taught indiscriminate killing/violence. God allowed war in self defence. But you can't be biased against just one.

 

[idea]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

there are many who have heard angels - I think he might have heard one, who knows? The only way to know, is to go talk to the angels yourself.

 

[gnostic]

I may express my doubts about Muhammad's angelic visitation or how he supposedly receive the Qur'an (actually, I am very skeptical about the event), but there are more historicity for Muhammad then there are for Jesus. Granted, some traditions and certain parts of Muhammad's biographies were exaggerated, but there are no doubts that Muhammad (as a person) exist.

 

[Godobeyer]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

normaly all angels is a servant of God , if angel comes to some one as a messanger of God , it's not happened everyday and to everyone .
all of the prophets and messangers were contacted God by Angel , it's not new issue and especial for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

yeah all the muslims believe that the Bible is message of God to the Jews and Christains
but we believe that it's corrupted by the hand of the humans ,that why were fake gospels (which denied by the Church),and that why it's contain and full by contradicts , especialy when we compare the contexts of the OT and NT.

 

[Iti oj]

Well the quran is considered to be poeticly beautifull outside of human comprehension, the prophet was also said to have preformed miracles to back up his claims...

 

[Godobeyer]

I may express my doubts about Muhammad's angelic visitation or how he supposedly receive the Qur'an (actually, I am very skeptical about the event), but there are more historicity for Muhammad then there are for Jesus. Granted, some traditions and certain parts of Muhammad's biographies were exaggerated, but there are no doubts that Muhammad (as a person) exist.

good point , He recieved the Quran as parts for many years , when He recieve the Quran by Gabriel , he was feeling some pain (not as normal case ).

to explain this issue to you more , it's was just like download , we had this option today.

When the Prophet reached the age of forty years and on Monday, the seventeenth of Ramadan, and while he was worshiping in the cave heard a strong voice say to him: read !!, he reply : what I read and, then says angel Gabriel {Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth, (1) Createth man from a clot. (2)Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, (3)Who teacheth by the pen, (4) Teacheth man that which he knew not. }
when prophet Mohammed (pbuh) read these verses and he got out from the cave he heard a voice say, O Muhammad (pbuh), you are the Messenger of Allah and I am angel Gabriel, and when he lhis eyes above the mountain , he saw the angel (Jibreel) and standing as a human being in the horizon of the sky, then disappeared, when He in the panic,when arrive to his wife Khadija , she staring calming down him by say: "You are the Messenger of this nation, and so it's revelation from Allah to you ", then Muhammad(pbuh) preparing himself for the biggest task in history , it's calling to the ONE god .

 

[Godobeyer]

Well the quran is considered to be poeticly beautifull outside of human comprehension, the prophet was also said to have preformed miracles to back up his claims...

EDITED:
The Quran in Arabic language context , it's impossible that be human made ,especialy in that era before more than "1400 years ago", and in that place "desert" .

for my opinion it's not outside of human comprehension , because we had many explainations (Tafsirs) , most of them are close to each other in the context .
that's why we are talking about the Miracles of Quran .

 

[arthra]

I think it is not so much important what someone claims to have heard or read, or what other people say about that person.
For me what really counts is what a person does.
So when I take a look on the life of Mohammed, I see a man who fought with sword in hand.
And when I take a look on the life of Jesus, I see a man who rather let himself be killed than to fight.

The ministry of the Lord Jesus was relatively brief..about three years..that we know of. The Romans had control of the area.. Some were tempted to rebel against the Romans but I think Jesus tried to tell them armed rebellion was not the answer. Instead He suggested they pay their taxes and carry the burdens..and turn the other cheek. Had the people followed His teachings at that time..Who knows? maybe Jerusalem would have been spared.

The case of Prophet Muhammad was different.. He was nonviolent in the first years of HIs ministry and so the early Muslims were persecuted by the Meccan pagans in the beginning.. The pagans tried to isolate the Muslims by boycotting them..later they attempted to assassinate Prophet Muhammad in His bed..Some Muslims fled to Ethiopia to escape persecution. Finally the Muslims had to leave Mecca and this was the Hijra..After years of persecution the Prophet received revelation that permitted self defence of the religion.

So the situations of Jesus and Muhammad differed and this was why their social teachings were also different but the spiritual message was the same I believe.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well the quran is considered to be poeticly beautifull outside of human comprehension,

Quranic recitation is actually really beautiful IF the reciter isn't sounding all nasally and whiny. Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) sounds great. The late Abdul Basit was awesome. His version of the Call Of Adahn is one of the best. His Quran recitations were well done.

the prophet was also said to have preformed miracles to back up his claims...

Yea, I don't really believe any of that.

 

[Iti oj]

Quranic recitation is actually really beautiful IF the reciter isn't sounding all nasally and whiny. Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) sounds great. The late Abdul Basit was awesome. His version of the Call Of Adahn is one of the best. His Quran recitations were well done.




Yea, I don't really believe any of that.

I hate to admit this but my fav recitation is by a child and its off surah yasim

 

[-Peacemaker-]

As beautiful as the Quran may sound in its original language I find it nearly unreadable in English. The book appears to have no structure at all and basically comes across as a one random thought after another strung together. It also has a habit of repeating the same stories ad nauseum. I don't find the argument attributing this characteristic to the fact it's non western literature to be very compelling either. The Bible was also written in the east and yet it is structured very coherently. Whether you agree with the message or not one can easily discern the author's theses in each book of the canon.

 

[Gharib]

As beautiful as the Quran may sound in its original language I find it nearly unreadable in English.

So why blame the book? Blame the language. Or is it more convenient that way so at to get your point across?