Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave

[Caladan]

So why blame the book? Blame the language. Or is it more convenient that way so at to get your point across?

I actually think Jungle gave several reasons why it may be the fault of the book.
aren't you bothered in the least that most Muslim believers themselves who cant read the Qur'an in the original Arabic may experience the same thing?
like jungle says, the Bible is still regarded as one of the best literary (if not the best) pieces in the English language.
even though I normally read the Bible in Hebrew, I also have the KJV which is considered to have great literary and poetic importance in the last 400 years. it says a lot about the quality of the written material in the Bible. I've read the Qur'an in two languages, one of them (Hebrew) shares commonalities with Arabic, and if I am to be honest, then no, the book is not comperabale in quality and content to the Bible.
that being said I still listen when people tell me that the subtle qualities of the book reveal themselves in the Classical Arabic.
instead of getting worked out about it, understand that we are giving you an honest account here as non Muslims who have read both books. shouldn't the fact that we took the time to read the Qur'an count for something?

 

[Gharib]

I actually think Jungle gave several reasons why it may be the fault of the book.
aren't you bothered in the least that most Muslim believers themselves who cant read the Qur'an in the original Arabic may experience the same thing?
like jungle says, the Bible is still regarded as one of the best literary (if not the best) pieces in the English language.
even though I normally read the Bible in Hebrew, I also have the KJV which is considered to have great literary and poetic importance in the last 400 years. it says a lot about the quality of the written material in the Bible. I've read the Qur'an in two languages, one of them (Hebrew) shares commonalities with Arabic, and if I am to be honest, then no, the book is not comperabale in quality and content to the Bible.
that being said I still listen when people tell me that the subtle qualities of the book reveal themselves in the Classical Arabic.
instead of getting worked out about it, understand that we are giving you an honest account here as non Muslims who have read both books. shouldn't the fact that we took the time to read the Qur'an count for something?

If the Qur'an makes sense in Arabic, which everyone says it does, then if you read it in English and doesn't make sense then the English language doesn't have the words to express it's meaning.

I read the Qur'an in 3 languages, two of them being English and Arabic. The other language that i read it in is very poor with words, in the past 10 years or so almost maybe 1/3 of the words that we use today have been copied from English (they are in English but we just pronounce them in our own way and make no sense at all, they have no meaning).

I can tell you that in the 3 languages it makes perfect sense to me. And I'm not saying that your time counts for nothing, maybe the things you choose to say may not be true. Some people read the Qur'an for purposes other than to learn from it.

 

[Caladan]

I can tell you that in the 3 languages it makes perfect sense to me. And I'm not saying that your time counts for nothing, maybe the things you choose to say may not be true. Some people read the Qur'an for purposes other than to learn from it.

I dont appreciate that at all, it's convenitnetly dismissive. I approached the book with best intentions to understand its content and I read it with great detail. my criticism of it is as good as yours.

 

[Gharib]

I dont appreciate that at all, it's convenitnetly dismissive. I've approached the book with best intentions and read it with great detail. my criticism of it is as good as yours.

I'm sorry if you took offence or if what i said was rude. I didn't meant that to you, I know for a fact people who have read it for the sole purpose of trying to find errors in it. So while they have read it, it wasn't based on good intention. And i didn't imply that you are one such person.

What i meant by what you choose to say, is that JungleJ said what he did so as to elevate his Bible and downgrade the Qur'an. There was nothing honest about what he said.

As for your experiences, i know others who have read it with good intentions and who don't understand it. I was one such person when i read it for the first time. But it's not the book, it's the language. When i read it some parts make more sense in English and some in my native language. I look at both translations to get a better understanding.

 

[Caladan]

One of the main points I am making is that it says a great deal about a book and its content when its translations are considered as epic as the source.

 

[Iti oj]

As beautiful as the Quran may sound in its original language I find it nearly unreadable in English. The book appears to have no structure at all and basically comes across as a one random thought after another strung together. It also has a habit of repeating the same stories ad nauseum. I don't find the argument attributing this characteristic to the fact it's non western literature to be very compelling either. The Bible was also written in the east and yet it is structured very coherently. Whether you agree with the message or not one can easily discern the author's theses in each book of the canon.

history and myth be bibe with poems, the quran is one be poem...though some of its content is disturbing .

 

[Godobeyer]

If the Qur'an makes sense in Arabic, which everyone says it does, then if you read it in English and doesn't make sense then the English language doesn't have the words to express it's meaning.

I read the Qur'an in 3 languages, two of them being English and Arabic. The other language that i read it in is very poor with words, in the past 10 years or so almost maybe 1/3 of the words that we use today have been copied from English (they are in English but we just pronounce them in our own way and make no sense at all, they have no meaning).

I can tell you that in the 3 languages it makes perfect sense to me. And I'm not saying that your time counts for nothing, maybe the things you choose to say may not be true. Some people read the Qur'an for purposes other than to learn from it.

that's right brother , esthitique of sense , of the Quran in Arabic is not the same as in other langauge , it's linguistique matter .
even the Bible looks like that because it's not in it' orinal language .(aramaic)

 

[Gharib]

One of the main points I am making is that it says a great deal about a book and its content when its translations are considered as epic as the source.

Or maybe it says a lot about the understanding abilities of people.

 

[Caladan]

Or maybe it says a lot about the understanding abilities of people.

You're observation makes no sense at all.
what I am saying is very straightforward. the Hebrew translation of The Lord of the Rings (in fact there are two Hebrew trasnaltions to Tolkien's epic) is still considered a great trilogy, it has a lot of fans, many of them even read the Hebrew translation despite the fact that they are more than capable of reading the English one.
likewise, the Hebrew Bible, while originally written in the Hebrew language has been successfuly translated into English, in fact the Bible in English has remained so influential that it inspired 400 years of developments in English literature and indeed in the English language itself.
this in itself says a great deal about the quality of the Bible and the content of the book itself.

 

[Godobeyer]

You're observation makes no sense at all.
what I am saying is very straightforward. the Hebrew translation of The Lord of the Rings (in fact there are two Hebrew trasnaltions to Tolkien's epic) is still considered a great trilogy, it has a lot of fans, many of them even read the Hebrew translation even though they are more than capable of reading the English one.
likewise, the Hebrew Bible, while originally written in the Hebrew language has been successfuly translated into English, in fact the Bible in English has remained so influential that it inspired 400 years of developments in English literature and indeed in the English language itself.
this in itself says a great deal about the quality of the Bible and the content of the book itself.

is the Torah in Hebrew , Torah in English (or other lang) , had the same context and beauty ?

 

[Caladan]

is the Torah in Hebrew , Torah in English (or other lang) , had the same context and beauty ?

Tell me, what have you heard about the King James Version of the Bible?

 

[Godobeyer]

Tell me, what have you heard about the King James Version of the Bible?

it's the Bible that most the christians believe in it .
but it's not the point .
my point is : original language of scriptures are not like the tranlations in the context and the beauty of the langauge .

 

[Caladan]

it's the Bible that most the christians believe in it .
but it's not the point .
my point is : original language of scriptures are not like the tranlations in the context and the beauty of the langauge .

You don't seem to understand the point.
what do you know else about the King James Version of the Bible. let me give you a hint, what is its importance OTHER then to Christian beliefs?

 

[loverOfTruth]

As beautiful as the Quran may sound in its original language I find it nearly unreadable in English. The book appears to have no structure at all and basically comes across as a one random thought after another strung together. It also has a habit of repeating the same stories ad nauseum. I don't find the argument attributing this characteristic to the fact it's non western literature to be very compelling either. The Bible was also written in the east and yet it is structured very coherently. Whether you agree with the message or not one can easily discern the author's theses in each book of the canon.

You are quite right about the structure of the Qur'an. It is unlike anything we are used to in a book. However, that is precisely the point - it is unlike any other book. It is fairly understandable that some people might find the structure less appealing than others - because that is a subjective matter. But I would suggest that you read the following article(especially the right column) which gives a beautiful annotation of the patterns and the timeline of the Qur'an. I'll just paste some portion of it here and you can read the rest from the site :

[Taken from: Concept of time in the Quran]

"the Qur'an does not follow a linear exposition and progressive timeline as, for example, the Bible does. It raises topics, not according to a successive historical progression, but according to its own unique inner pulse and rhythm. If it was in a historical, chronological order like a book of history or a biography, it would have been particularized to the chronology of history. The Qur'an, however, declares itself as timeless, as a book that cannot be particularized and limited to a specific historical context. 'Verily this is no less than a Message to all the Worlds.' (Qur'an 81:27) Jafar al-Sadiq (a.s.) has said of it that '...it will continue on its course as long as Heaven and Earth endure, because it enshrines a sign and a guide for every person and group to come.'

The Qur'an breaks the chronological mould to declare itself free from the ties of time. It originates with God who encompasses time and is not constrained by it. The Book of the Realities of existence which the Qur'an calls 'the Mother of the Book' is on a different plane of existence, outside of the flow of time as we know it. It is from this realm that the Qur'an descended to the Prophet's (s.a.) heart, and from there, degree by degree descended in the form of the specific words recited as the Qur'an. Nasir al-Din Qunawi writes, 'The writing and the form of the letters and sounds originate in time, but what is written and recited is beyond time'.
'And behold, it is with Us in the Mother of the Book, sublime indeed, wise.. (Qur'an 43:3)
"

Hope this helps the next time you decide to pick up the Qur'an and read with an open mind. Peace.

 

[Godobeyer]

You don't seem to understand the point.
what do you know else about the King James Version of the Bible. let me give you a hint, what is its importance OTHER then to Christian beliefs?

accuatly i don't know why it's importance between the other versions of the Bible, maybe because it's had good translation close to the original (Hebrew and Aramaic ) ?

 

[Caladan]

accuatly i don't know why it's importance between the other versions of the Bible, maybe because it's had good translation close to the original (Hebrew and Aramaic ) ?

Because even in an English translation the Bible has inspired the development of English literature, and more than that has inspired much development in the English language itself. this is a testament that the translators of the Bible had plenty to work with, which is again a testament to the good content of the book itself.

 

[Godobeyer]

Because even in an English translation the Bible has inspired the development of English literature, and more than that has inspired much development in the English language itself. this is a testament that the translators of the Bible had plenty to work with, which is again a testament to the good content of the book itself.

thanks for this info .
as i understand you, that the bible in English , is inspiration of insipiration Bible ?
how the translation becomes inspiration !!!! ,this is become insipiration game

 

[cablescavenger]

Please tell me what is so compelling about a man who claims to have heard an angel speak to him while he was alone in a cave. Why is everybody supposed to just take his word for it? Even if he did hear an angel, there are spirits of truth and deception, that is if you believe in the Bible. Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

He had fits too. There is some speculation he may have had temporal lobe epilepsy, which would explain many of his symptoms and his messages were from God.

 

[Gharib]

You're observation makes no sense at all.
what I am saying is very straightforward. the Hebrew translation of The Lord of the Rings (in fact there are two Hebrew trasnaltions to Tolkien's epic) is still considered a great trilogy, it has a lot of fans, many of them even read the Hebrew translation despite the fact that they are more than capable of reading the English one.
likewise, the Hebrew Bible, while originally written in the Hebrew language has been successfuly translated into English, in fact the Bible in English has remained so influential that it inspired 400 years of developments in English literature and indeed in the English language itself.
this in itself says a great deal about the quality of the Bible and the content of the book itself.

Unfortunately it's your thinking and reasoning that's gone off track.
Whether the Bible is/was an inspiration has nothing to do with it. The Qur'an was an inspiration that led to modern civilization and brought Christians out of the dark ages. I'm sure you know about Islamic history no point giving you a lecture. If you want to argue about inspiration then the Qur'an takes first prize. You know that very well.

As for it being difficult to read and understand, I'm sure more than half the Muslim population will disagree with you since they don't speak nor understand Arabic. And I'm one of those people who have read it in a language other than Arabic.

 

[Gharib]

He had fits too. There is some speculation he may have had temporal lobe epilepsy, which would explain many of his symptoms and his messages were from God.

That was only for a few days as a result of the spell of the Jewish people who he expelled from Madinah and their ally Jews who were a little distant from Madinah. It never happened again after they discovered the cause.