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Muslims Voting for American President (response)

I created this thread so people could respond to MuhamedAbdullah's thread in the Islam forum. This was the OP:
By Imam Anwar Awlaki

The Muslim community in the US is busy with the vote and are debating who the Muslims should pick as their president. The argument presented is we are choosing between the lesser of the two evils. In reality it is more about being American and part of the system than it is about benefiting the ummah because the fact of the matter is there is no benefit in either candidate whatsoever.

Democracy in an un-Islamic system and we as Muslims should have nothing to do with it. Whether one looks at the root and history of democracy or at the reality of democracy today one can realize that it is a system that is not only different than the Islamic system but is opposed to it. Can’t you see that the West in its war against Islam is offering the democratic system as an alternative to Sharia? So if the West, which is the founder of democracy, sees democracy as an opposing system to Islam why are some Muslims still insisting on participating in it and adopting it as their political religion?

Democracy is a Western system that was founded and developed in the West and today the West, not the Muslims, have full authority and right to tell the world what democracy is and how it should be practiced and implemented. We have our own system of government and likewise it is the Muslims who are going to define it and will not allow non Muslims to meddle with our religion and teach us what is right from wrong.

Muslims should seek to avoid any forms of participation in Western democracy.

The promoters of participation in American elections argue that we are choosing the least of the two evils. This principle is correct but what they are missing is that in the process of choosing the lesser of the two evils they are committing an even greater evil . The breaking down of the psychological barrier that should exist between Muslims and non-Muslims, the erosion of the aqeedah of wala and bara (loyalty to Allah and disavowal of the enemies of Allah,) and the risk of loosing one’s religion are evils that outweigh any benefit that may come out of such participation.

Also the types of candidates that American politics has been spitting out is absolutely disgusting. I wonder how any Muslim with a grain of iman in his heart could walk up to a ballot box and cast his vote in endorsement of creatures such as Mcain or Obama?! How can a Muslim sleep with a clear conscience after he has chosen the likes of G.W. Bush? No matter how irrelevant your vote is, on the Day of Judgment you will be called to answer for it. You, under no coercion or duress, consciously chose to vote for the leader of a nation that is leading the war against Islam.

There is also a strange belief among some that if we participate in the elections of the disbelievers we will bring good to ourselves, while if we have trust in Allah and avoid the disbelievers, as He wants from us, we will be missing out on some good and would draw harm to ourselves. They are so weak they believe we can only survive in today’s word if we seek support from the enemies of Allah. But for the believers Allah is sufficient for them and they do not need to seek assistance from the leaders or the governments of the disbelievers.


The is no benefit for the ummah in voting for the new American Pharoah

(from Anwar Awlaki's Blog)
To me, what is most disturbing about this is the vicious labeling of Americans as "the enemies of Allah", and the support for a "psychological barrier that should exist between Muslims and non-Muslims". Such "psychological barriers" are precisely what is needed to justify oppression and inhumane acts of violence against other human beings. Psychological barriers between people of different groups is precisely what we need to break down, not build up.

This is a mindset which presumptuously labels those who disagree as "enemies of God", yet I don't think it's platitudinous to say that the mindset is an enemy of reason, tolerance, equality, freedom, progress, and democracy. And I think most Muslim-Americans would agree with me, and many Muslims around the world would agree with me, too.

Other thoughts?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Whoops, I was debating in a DIR, wasn't I?

Will move my posts here. Thanks, Spinks.

(re)Post 1:
Voting is a civic duty. Citizens of a democracy have a responsibility to participate in it.

and 2:
Oh, and another thing. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I created this thread so people could respond to MuhamedAbdullah's thread in the Islam forum. This was the OP:
To me, what is most disturbing about this is the vicious labeling of Americans as "the enemies of Allah", and the support for a "psychological barrier that should exist between Muslims and non-Muslims". Such "psychological barriers" are precisely what is needed to justify oppression and inhumane acts of violence against other human beings. Psychological barriers between people of different groups is precisely what we need to break down, not build up.

This is a mindset which presumptuously labels those who disagree as "enemies of God", yet I don't think it's platitudinous to say that the mindset is an enemy of reason, tolerance, equality, freedom, progress, and democracy. And I think most Muslim-Americans would agree with me, and many Muslims around the world would agree with me, too.

Other thoughts?


Insightful analysis! You're lucky I'm out of frubals or I might drown you in them from over enthusiasm at your insights. :D

I believe the mindset you refer to is a distinct psychological temperament or personality that has been explained in some detail by Bob Altemeyer, a research psychologist. There's a thread on his book, The Authoritarians, here.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I created this thread so people could respond to MuhamedAbdullah's thread in the Islam forum. This was the OP:
To me, what is most disturbing about this is the vicious labeling of Americans as "the enemies of Allah", and the support for a "psychological barrier that should exist between Muslims and non-Muslims". Such "psychological barriers" are precisely what is needed to justify oppression and inhumane acts of violence against other human beings. Psychological barriers between people of different groups is precisely what we need to break down, not build up.

This is a mindset which presumptuously labels those who disagree as "enemies of God", yet I don't think it's platitudinous to say that the mindset is an enemy of reason, tolerance, equality, freedom, progress, and democracy. And I think most Muslim-Americans would agree with me, and many Muslims around the world would agree with me, too.

Other thoughts?

I completely agree...the "disgust" of anyone not Muslim was apparent...This persons view/opinion promotes division..and quite frankly hatred of anyone not of their "religion"...And they(the evil ones) are labeled "Americans"..which doesnt make sense..because to be American doesnt mean you arent Muslim..(if that makes sense)...

What does this person want?? Their own country and laws on Amercian soil that Muslims have complete control over? That "non -Muslims" arent welcome in?..

Love

Dallas
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Humans are a social species and depend on each other to survive and flourish. Since each of us depends on the other, I think each of us should have a say in how we are governed. It's not as if we depend on our leaders, but they do not depend on us. The dependence is mutual. Therefore, the governance should be distributed in part to everyone.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Oh and I apoligize too for posting in an area not for debate..I promise it was an oversight on my part and not intentional...

Love

Dallas
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
He is in Yemen. But do you think that anyone who disagrees with any US policy should just leave the country or only Muslims who do?
It's not about disagreeing with US policy. It's about refusing to engage in the country's social contract. And yes, I think ANYONE who does that should either leave or not immigrate here in the first place*. You want to live under Shari'a law, fine. Go away.

* Actually, that stance is limited to niether Muslims nor the US.
 
Whoops, I was debating in a DIR, wasn't I?

Will move my posts here. Thanks, Spinks.

(re)Post 1:
Voting is a civic duty. Citizens of a democracy have a responsibility to participate in it.

Democracy is a sham. For example look at the UK where the majority of the people where against the war in Iraq yet the British went in anyway. Now if it was really a democracy then the will of the people would be obeyed. But all major decisions are taken by and amongst the ruling class. In the upcoming US election if you are against the war of terror then what do you do as both candidates (who have been put forward by the ruling class) are for the war. Democracy merely presents the facade that the people actually have a say in the running of the country.

Now before anyone says that anyone is eligible to stand, this may indeed by the case but you wont get elected unless you have the backing of particular elements amongst the rulers such as a section of the media or large financial backers. All you have to do to see this clearly is to look at the elected representatives - are they really representative of the general population, is there workers, cab drivers etc amongst them?

and 2:
Oh, and another thing. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain.

Thats like a someone saying to you "I will beat you with a metal bar or a baseball bat. If you don't choose which then you have no right to complain". Muslims (and indeed anyone else) has the right to complain and resist the opression which will be carried out by the next US regime throughout the world. The flip side is that if you do vote you give that regime credibility.
 
It's not about disagreeing with US policy. It's about refusing to engage in the country's social contract. And yes, I think ANYONE who does that should either leave or not immigrate here in the first place*. You want to live under Shari'a law, fine. Go away.

* Actually, that stance is limited to niether Muslims nor the US.

So always agree and obey the establishment as they are always correct. Should the Jews have obeyed the social contract in Nazi Germany or those oppressed in the USSR obeyed theirs? Thats a slavish mentality if ever I heard one.
 

OutOfTime

Active Member
If you're concerned, you can try voting for 'none of the above' also known as a no confidence vote or refuting the ballot. This is what I would do since I have no faith in the current system and think that the elections are rigged (with the candidate with the most royal bloodline/lineage winning each time...this time it will be Obama).

Not sure if it is still allowed, it used to be allowed here in Canada but not anymore.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Democracy is a sham.
It's not perfect, but it's better than anything else we've come up with.

Thats like a someone saying to you "I will beat you with a metal bar or a baseball bat. If you don't choose which then you have no right to complain".
BS. In this country, everyone has a voice. If you refuse to engage in the process, that's YOUR choice.

Muslims (and indeed anyone else) has the right to complain and resist the opression which will be carried out by the next US regime throughout the world. The flip side is that if you do vote you give that regime credibility.
Yes, they do. And the foremost way of doing that is by participating in society. Live by example. Protest injustice. VOTE. Don't turn your back on your civic duty, embrace it as the priviledge it is!
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
So always agree and obey the establishment as they are always correct. Should the Jews have obeyed the social contract in Nazi Germany or those oppressed in the USSR obeyed theirs? Thats a slavish mentality if ever I heard one.
That's not what I was saying, and I think you know it. I'm talking about CHALLENGING the establishment. If you don't like things as they are, WORK TO CHANGE THEM!

You, otoh, are advocating just letting them do whatever they want and then whining about it. That changes nothing.
 
That's not what I was saying, and I think you know it. I'm talking about CHALLENGING the establishment. If you don't like things as they are, WORK TO CHANGE THEM!

You, otoh, are advocating just letting them do whatever they want and then whining about it. That changes nothing.

But you are working on the premise that voting will change it which it wont and I am not advocating doing nothing about it as there are other ways to challenge the establishment than through the electoral process, indeed one of the purposes of elections is to fool people into the belief that they are doing their part and they are challenging injustice. Do the majority of Americans want Guantanemo? Do they want to be spied on? Which candidate will change either of these?
 
It's not perfect, but it's better than anything else we've come up with.

Well I would disagree with that but even if it is the case that isn't a reason to accept or support something.

BS. In this country, everyone has a voice. If you refuse to engage in the process, that's YOUR choice.

Thats why all those people who want free medical care have got it. They spoke and where listened to. Sorry my mistake.

The fact is that they only have a voice in decided which member of the ruling class will misrule them which isn't really much of a choice to be honest.

Yes, they do. And the foremost way of doing that is by participating in society. Live by example. Protest injustice. VOTE. Don't turn your back on your civic duty, embrace it as the priviledge it is!

Again, where is the choice to stop the war in Iraq? There are many people who want it stopped right now, who should they vote for?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
You're right, Muhamad. We should all just give up and let those in power do whatever they please. That'll show 'em. :sarcastic
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
To me, what is most disturbing about this is the vicious labeling of Americans as "the enemies of Allah", and the support for a "psychological barrier that should exist between Muslims and non-Muslims". Such "psychological barriers" are precisely what is needed to justify oppression and inhumane acts of violence against other human beings. Psychological barriers between people of different groups is precisely what we need to break down, not build up.

This is a mindset which presumptuously labels those who disagree as "enemies of God", yet I don't think it's platitudinous to say that the mindset is an enemy of reason, tolerance, equality, freedom, progress, and democracy. And I think most Muslim-Americans would agree with me, and many Muslims around the world would agree with me, too.
There is a book by Reza Aslan called "No God But God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam." I cannot praise the book enough for anyone wanting an insightful introduction to the Islam from a socio-historical point of view.

One of the book's greatest insights actually comes in the foreward, before the book proper even starts. Aslan talks about the subway bombings in Britain. Here in the West, we heard about the attacks and thought it was another example of Islamic militants attacking the Western culture that they despise. I certainly thought so.

But Aslan points out that the subway stops that were targeted were all areas with large Muslim populations. This isn't to say that the terrorists weren't out to get "godless Westerners." But they were ALSO out to get Muslims who were willing to assimilate, to live peacefully in a democratic country.

Aslan goes on to say that Islam is undergoing a Reformation right now, just as Christianity underwent one a few centuries ago. It is a civil war, and all civil wars are violent. What is at stake is the future of Islam - whether it will be a peaceful, tolerant religion that can coexist with difference, for there is certain basis for that in its past, or whether it will be an exclusivist, intolerant religion that must segregate and/or dominate. There is historical basis for that too.

I think it's pretty clear where Imam Awlaki and MuhamedAbdullah stand on this.
 
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I am not advocating doing nothing about it as there are other ways to challenge the establishment than through the electoral process, indeed one of the purposes of elections is to fool people into the belief that they are doing their part and they are challenging injustice.

Storm said:
You're right, Muhamad. We should all just give up and let those in power do whatever they please. That'll show 'em. :sarcastic

Strange.
 
I think it's pretty clear where Imam Awlaki and MuhamedAbdullah stand on this.

Where? I stand by what was decreed by Allah and the Messenger(SAW). Islam can't be changed as it was given to us perfect. But yes there are those who are trying to change Islam and indeed they are quite open about it and these people are extremists as I cannot imagine a more extreme thing than saying the God was wrong on some issues and that they should be changed.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Where? I stand by what was decreed by Allah and the Messenger(SAW). Islam can't be changed as it was given to us perfect. But yes there are those who are trying to change Islam and indeed they are quite open about it and these people are extremists as I cannot imagine a more extreme thing than saying the God was wrong on some issues and that they should be changed.
Funny. 99% of the Muslims I meet say that they follow the laws decreed by Allah and related by Mohammed. There seems to be no argument on that. And yet they don't agree on what those laws are.

Are you claiming that the Quran tells you that you cannot live in a democratic country?
 
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