Muslims who don't trust Scholars

[Shia Islam]

Salaam alaikum,But what about how each shi'ite has his own marja'? My friend even told me it can be called marja taqlidi

Each Shiite has either to reach the level of Ijtihad- which is possible for only tiny number of people- or he/she must follow a 'marja taqlid'. The marja is called the source of emulation, in that he must be followed in the law related matters (fiqh), not in the Aqeedah (the beliefs). This is because each person need to be able to defend and justify his/her beliefs rather than merely following others.

Each marja publish what is called the Resalah Amaliya ( the practical guide). the name itself reflects the fact that it is about Laws and not about the beliefs.

But this is what Sunnis also believe?

Yes.
Muslims need to emphasize their commonalities...

I will add this:

The Shiites are called the Mukhati'a (those who believe that for any matter there exist an Islamic law that Allah, his prophet and the Imam certainly know. Based on this, in case that two Marjas issue different verdicts for the same case, one must be wrong...

For this reasons the majority of the Shiites would normally follow a single marja who is thought to be the most learned one....

currently the one marja who is thought to be the most learned is Ayatollah sayed ali sistani...

Before him it was Ayatollah sayed AbulQasim Al Khoei, who lived for more than (maybe) 100 years, and was an exceptional marja in relation to his intellectual achievements...

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Each Shiite has either to reach the level of Ijtihad- which is possible for only tiny number of people- or he/she must follow a 'marja taqlid'.

Thanks Shia Islam. Allow me to summarize the part that is mostly related to this discussion. So, you agree that trusting a scholar is not a must in Islam and it rather stems from Shia's practice (or any other branch). In other words, if one does not trust scholars (neither for his/her belief system nor for the rules), you would not label him as a non-Mulsim, although you might not consider him a shia.

 

[Shia Islam]

Thanks Shia Islam. Allow me to summarize the part that is mostly related to this discussion. So, you agree that trusting a scholar is not a must in Islam and it rather stems from Shia's practice (or any other branch). In other words, if one does not trust scholars (neither for his/her belief system nor for the rules), you would not label him as a non-Mulsim, although you might not consider him a shia.

Dear safdar.dushantappeh,

I would like firstly to say this:
Will of Amir Al Mumineen (Imam Ali) (as) to Kumail ibn Ziyad (ra):

People are of three types: One is the scholar and divine. Then the seeker of knowledge who is also on the way to deliverance. Then (lastly) the common rot who run after every caller and bend in the direction of every wind. They seek not light from the effulgence of knowledge so as to be guided, and do not take protection of any reliable support so that they will be saved...

الناس ثلاثة : عالم رباني , و متعلم على سبيل نجاة , و همج رعاع أتباع كل ناعق , يميلون مع كل ريح , لم يستضيئوا بنور العلم , و لم يلجأوا إلى ركن وثيق

Based on the above, the goal of every Muslim should be to be a scholar at some stage of his/her life...

On the other hand, I noticed that there are many People who mistrust the religious authorities and the religious scholars without exceptions. These people are looking with suspicion toward any religious scholar.

This is an indication of an issue with these people who have developed a generalized unrealistic view about the scholars...

While in reality, the scholars are human, there are among them the trustworthy ones and those who can't be trusted...

among the scholars are those who are struggling and risking their lives for the truth...

There are good scholars...

Try to find a scholar that you can trust ...to help you in your aim to become a scholar yourself...

Good luck

 

[Shia Islam]

Salaam alaikum,But what about how each shi'ite has his own marja'? My friend even told me it can be called marja taqlidiBut this is what Sunnis also believe?

I was planning to quote a hadith in my post...
Here is it (copied from a site with no copyrights ) :

Here, it will be appropriate to cite a tradition reported from Amir al‑Mu'minin in Bihar al‑'Anwar (vo1.2, chapter 34, p.284; also see Nahj al‑balaghah, Khutbah No.18):

ترد على أحدهم القضية في حكم من الأحكام، فيحكم فيها برأيه، ثم ترد تلك القضية بعينها على غيره، فيحكم فيها بخلاف قوله، ثم يجتمع القضاة بذلك عند الإمام الذي استقضاهم فيصوب آراءهم جميعاً - والههم واحد! وكتابهم واحد! أفأمرهم الله - سبحانه - بالاختلاف فأطاعوه! أم نهاهم عنه فعصوه! أم أنزل الله ديناً ناقصاً فاستعان بهم على إتمامه! ام كانوا شركاء له، فلهم ان يقولوا، وعليه أن يرضى!؟ أم أنزل ديناً تاماً فقصر الرسول (&#1589 عن تبليغه وأدائه، والله سبحانه يقول: ((ما فرطنا في الكتاب من شي&#1569) وفيه تبيان لكل شيء، وذكر أن الكتاب يصدق بعضه بعضاً، وانه لااختلاف فيه فقال سبحانه ((ولو كان من عند غير الله لوجدوا فيه اختلافاً كثيرا&#1611).
When a case relating to one of the ahkam is put before any one of them he passes judgement on it according to his ray. Afterwards, when the same problem is placed before another of them, he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their God is One, their prophet is one and the same and their scripture is one and the same.

Was it God‑subhanahu‑who enjoined them to differ (while laying down the ahkam), and they obeyed Him’? Or He forbade them from it and they disobeyed Him? Or, did God Almighty send His Din in a defective and imperfect form and asked for their help and assist*ance in order to make it perfect?

Or, were they His partners and assistants (in performing legislation) so that He has to concede to whatever judgement they pronounce? Or is it that God Almighty made His Din perfect, but the Prophet (S) fell short of communicating it (to the people)?

The fact is that God states in the Qur’an:

مَا فَرَّطْنَا فِي الْكِتَابِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ ۚ
We have not neglected anything in the Book, (6:38)

تِبْيَانًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ
and that in it is all things, (16:89)

and that one part of the Qur’an verifies another part and that there is no contradiction in it. And the Almighty has said:

وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا
If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much incongruity, (4:82).

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Thanks Shia Islam for the detailed explanation.

Based on the above, the goal of every Muslim should be to be a scholar at some stage of his/her life...

I guess it is fair to say that this goal seems to be unrealistic. I believe you also agree with me on this.

As of issuing Fatwas, it's a very complicated process that needs tens of years of study

So becoming a scholar (in the way you and the main branches define) is not a realistic goal for me. And (for whatever personal reason that I have) I am not willing to base my religion on trusting scholars. Am I still a Muslim? My understanding from your and Sunni brothers was that you do not consider trusting scholars as a pillar of Islam, so I guess you would still consider me a Muslim.

 

[Shia Islam]

Thanks Shia Islam for the detailed explanation.


I guess it is fair to say that this goal seems to be unrealistic. I believe you also agree with me on this.

I meant that you you should continue learning and increasing your knowledge of religion.

And there is no harm in having an unreachable aim

And (for whatever personal reason that I have) I am not willing to base my religion on trusting scholars. Am I still a Muslim? My understanding from your and Sunni brothers was that you do not consider trusting scholars as a pillar of Islam, so I guess you would still consider me a Muslim.

Could you explain what is it about scholars that you don't trust?

Are you saying that you know more than them what is permissible in Islam and What is not?

Do you assume that there is no honest scholars out there?

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

And there is no harm in having an unreachable aim

Not sure about that. An unreachable aim could be indicative of an imperfection in the plan.

Could you explain what is it about scholars that you don't trust?

The fact that the scholars claim to be honest and reasonable. And yet the scholars who are born among Shia people become Shia scholar and the scholars who are born among Sunni people become Sunni scholar. It seems that the scholars of each area just repeat what their people want to hear, and yet claim that their thinking is original and only based on facts.

The fact that Islam was supposed to be about throwing all the intermediary idols away and having people directly communicating with the God. But now these are the scholars who are the middle man and tell people what the God wants them to do.

The fact that the scholars discourage people from thinking. They tell them discovering the right way is too complicated for you ordinary people. We did it the effort for you, just trust us and execute our commands (which they claim to be the God's commands). Even if we make a horrible mistake and our command was actually against the God's will, you followers are safe since you had a good intention.

The fact that if you talk to people who have killed the brothers from other branch or are willing to do so and ask them why you do so, at the end they will confess that they have received the ok signal from a trusted religious leader whom they trust. And if you even try to argue with them that this action is wrong, they would refuse to even listen to you saying that the religion is so complicated and they are not scholars to be able to analyze arguments.

And ...

 

[Shia Islam]

The fact that the scholars claim to be honest and reasonable. And yet the scholars who are born among Shia people become Shia scholar and the scholars who are born among Sunni people become Sunni scholar. It seems that the scholars of each area just repeat what their people want to hear, and yet claim that their thinking is original and only based on facts.

The fact that Islam was supposed to be about throwing all the intermediary idols away and having people directly communicating with the God. But now these are the scholars who are the middle man and tell people what the God wants them to do.

The fact that the scholars discourage people from thinking. They tell them discovering the right way is too complicated for you ordinary people. We did it the effort for you, just trust us and execute our commands (which they claim to be the God's commands). Even if we make a horrible mistake and our command was actually against the God's will, you followers are safe since you had a good intention.

The fact that if you talk to people who have killed the brothers from other branch or are willing to do so and ask them why you do so, at the end they will confess that they have received the ok signal from a trusted religious leader whom they trust. And if you even try to argue with them that this action is wrong, they would refuse to even listen to you saying that the religion is so complicated and they are not scholars to be able to analyze arguments.

And ...

Now...Your point became very clear....
And I agree with many of your points...

Indeed your main idea seems to be in-line with the following 'Criterion of Knowing the Truth' as set by Imam Ali a.s. (who is described by the prophet (s) as the gate of the city of knowledge, where the city of knowledge is the prophet himself as the prophet (s) stated ) :

ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلام&#1615 : إنّ الحقَّ لايُعرَفُ‏ بالرِّجالِ، اعْرِفِ الحقَّ تَعرِفْ أهلَهُ.
Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘Verily the truth is not known through men; know the truth [first] and you will know its people.’[Majma`a al-Bayan, v. 1, p. 211]

So your starting point is to investigate where the truth lies...Then search for the truthfull people within that camp...

Then, true scholars always provide evidences for their rulings...read thru these evidences and try to find out what other scholars are saying about these points...

The truth is always different from falsehood...Imam Ali a.s. said:

"With every correct matter there is a light”

May Allah guide us all to his satisfaction...

 

[loverOfTruth]

What I hear is that a Muslim either must trust scholars or become one. I believe in the God, in the judgement day, in Quran, but I refuse to base my faith based on trusting scholars. Do you consider me your Muslim brother?

Is this the case that to be considered as your Muslim brother I should also trust some scholars that you or your branch authorizes? I am sure at the very beginning of Islam there were no scholars so it should not be so weird if a Muslim does not put them in his belief system.

Is there any command in Quran that instructs (or at least hints that suggests) creating a space for scholars in our religion? I read Quran and quite contrary I found hints that discourages trusting the religious authorities? Here is the results of my research:
Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Is there anything that I missed? Perhaps my conclusion comes from a misinterpretation of some verses and you can help me identify them.

Salaam....Scholars basically possess the knowledge of the religion better than the common folks because they dedicated their time to study the religion. Hence, it is natural that one would turn to them for guidance in confusing matters and in general learning the deen of Allah(swt) - just like in any worldly matter, you would turn to the experts for learning and answers.

"Is one who is devoutly obedient during periods of the night, prostrating and standing [in prayer], fearing the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, [like one who does not]? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding." (Al Qur'an 39:9)

However, it becomes more serious in matters of great significance. For example, can most Muslims just read the Qur'an and the Hadiths and figure out how to pray, how to perform Hajj etc. ? That's where the scholars come into play. You just choose some scholar based on their knowledge and credibility and stick to them....rest Allah(swt) knows best.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Then, true scholars always provide evidences for their rulings...read thru these evidences and try to find out what other scholars are saying about these points...

Then I guess we lived in two different planets. I did read the books of fatwas رساله توضیح المسایل from scholars and found no arguments in there, only final opinion. I am living between the Muslim people and I do not see any scholar backs up his fatwas with arguments. Can you point me to a web site in which the scholar accompany his fatwa with the arguments? (if there is any)

And I do not know how even that is possible. Lets say that a modern scholar does so and beside his fatwa also explain the arguments based on which he concluded the fatwa. The arguments are usually based on a Hadith. How could an ordinary Muslim verifies the authenticity of the Hadith? At the end you would have to just trust the scholar and take the set of Hadiths that he calls authentic. (And we know that Sunni and Shia scholar believe in many different Hadiths)

Any may I ask you a personal question? What was the last time you thought about the fatwa of your trusted scholar, read through the arguments, and decided that his is wrong?

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

You just choose some scholar based on their knowledge and credibility and stick to them....rest Allah(swt) knows best.

Yes, Allah knows the best and warned in Quran about following religious leaders. He describes people about to be thrown to hell and they turn to their religious leaders saying that we were just following you or asking the God to punish the leaders more.

Do you think you can do me a favor and read the article that I linked in the first post:

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Section D has many such examples from Quran.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Yes, Allah knows the best and warned in Quran about following religious leaders. He describes people about to be thrown to hell and they turn to their religious leaders saying that we were just following you or asking the God to punish the leaders more.

Do you think you can do me a favor and read the article that I linked in the first post:

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Section D has many such examples from Quran.

Salaam, ok I read it.

#1 Most of the references given are for the leaders/elders of the disbelievers. So according to the Islamic history and Qur'an we all know the most common reason that the people didn't accept Islam is because they didn't wanna give up the stuff of their forefathers/tribe leaders etc. No surprise there.

#2 The few references regarding the religious scholars of the other religion's (you stated but I did not find them to be so) leaders of the earlier religions. And even if I take your word for it, if their scholars accepted Islam we wouldn't have any Christians or Jews remaining. And we know their scholars were not following their own religion and hence naturally rejected Islam as stated in the Qur'an :
"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind." (Al Qur'an 5:13)

So none of those shows that Allah forbids following Muslim Scholars in Islam. On the contrary, if you read the following verse you'll know that Allah(swt) assigns role of learning knowledge to some so they can teach others (even though basic learning is obligatory upon everyone ) :

"Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil)." (Al Qur'an 9:122)


The following article really explains this matter well : Why Muslims Follow Madhhabs

Peace.

 

[Shia Islam]

Then I guess we lived in two different planets. I did read the books of fatwas رساله توضیح المسایل from scholars and found no arguments in there, only final opinion. I am living between the Muslim people and I do not see any scholar backs up his fatwas with arguments. Can you point me to a web site in which the scholar accompany his fatwa with the arguments? (if there is any)

And I do not know how even that is possible. Lets say that a modern scholar does so and beside his fatwa also explain the arguments based on which he concluded the fatwa. The arguments are usually based on a Hadith. How could an ordinary Muslim verifies the authenticity of the Hadith? At the end you would have to just trust the scholar and take the set of Hadiths that he calls authentic. (And we know that Sunni and Shia scholar believe in many different Hadiths)

Any may I ask you a personal question? What was the last time you thought about the fatwa of your trusted scholar, read through the arguments, and decided that his is wrong?

I know that some may misinterpret this, but i must say that in Shia Islam our situation is different...

After the the death of the Holly prophet we followed the 12 holly Imams a.s. one after the other. Among the consequence of this is the vast volumes of hadith collections that we have...

The Hadiths are covering all the areas of life...

This made the role of the Mujtahids easier...

Then, we have the Hawza (seminaries) wherein the scholars will need to study for tens of years under the supervision of the great scholars before reaching the point of Ijtihad.

Normally one scholar will surpass the others in his knowledge and will be followed by the majority of the shiites worldwide. He must be approves to be a just person before people can follow him.

Grand Ayatollahs live austere lives and have always shown readiness to sacrifice for the sake of protecting Islam and the Ummah...

You can read about the lives of Ayatolla Khoei, Sistani, KHomenini ...etc.

People not only Trust these personalities, they are ready to sacrifice their lives for them...

This is no secret

 

[TashaN]

Hi brother, welcome to the Islam DIR.

I have a theory (which could be wrong) that why the attached details did not disappear after a while. My theory is that perhaps the details justified the existence of scholars. And scholar became the unique source to see what Islam means. And they were inclined to offer an interpretation of Islam that justifies their existence. For example no car manufacturing company says that cars are useless, otherwise nobody would pay them for their cars. Or no cigarette company would discourage people from smoking cigar since their very existence depends on people keep smoking. As I said it is just a theory and I have no proofs for it.

This could be true of few of them but not all. You can think of most of them as university professors of today. They didn't seek followers. They were in it for the knowledge itself. They were holding talks and debates, and writing books. It's interesting that the top scholars in the past they were refraining and running away from issuing fatwas even one of them said that if a scholar claim that he can answer ALL the questions he is being asked then he is insane. I tried to search into this matter and i noticed that many if not most of the scholars in the past rose as a response to the new ideologies and philosophies which been imported from the east and the west as the islamic land was expanding.

People from remote places with different weathers and life circumstances started to ask questions which didn't occur to the scholars before, and the scholars tried to answer them to the best of their abilities. It was the students of these scholars which recorded every single details of these talks and fatwas of course aside from the books written by these scholars.

Now with the massive flow of information we have all these packages from the past which became a burden, whereby in the past, were solutions for the public at a time.

Nevertheless, today people don't know why they HAVE to burden themselves with this package, they simply follow those who were before them. Why not to follow the main source which is the Quran and what Prophet Mohamed said?

It's interesting that in the time of Prophet Mohamed a Muslim came to the Prophet and told him, listen, all what i gotta do is just to believe in Allah and in you as a prophet, then pray, pay zakat to the poor, fast, and do haj, and don't ask me for anything else to do, will i enter paradise for doing just that? Prophet Mohamed said yes, then when the guy left, the Prophet told those surrounding him, if he truly did that, then he has succeeded. "wording is mine"

Also what is more interesting is that people kept asking Prophet Mohamed and he was discouraging them from asking too many irrelevant questions not to burden themselves with things that weren't required of them to do. In another word, they just had to follow what he asked them to do, and stay away from what he prohibited, and aside from that they can do as they see fit without resorting to ask him, to be your own mufti.

I have been thinking about this issue alot, what comes first? should we listen to the Quran? or to the scholar, or to who exactly? until i stumbled upon this great book by Al-Qaradawi which finally point the priorities in our lives as Muslims.

In Arabic: في فقه الأولويات: دراسة جديدة في ضوء القرآن والسنة by يوسف القرضاوي — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
In English: Fiqih Prioritas by

All the best.

 

[TashaN]

Then I guess we lived in two different planets. I did read the books of fatwas رساله توضیح المسایل from scholars and found no arguments in there, only final opinion. I am living between the Muslim people and I do not see any scholar backs up his fatwas with arguments. Can you point me to a web site in which the scholar accompany his fatwa with the arguments? (if there is any)

And I do not know how even that is possible. Lets say that a modern scholar does so and beside his fatwa also explain the arguments based on which he concluded the fatwa. The arguments are usually based on a Hadith. How could an ordinary Muslim verifies the authenticity of the Hadith? At the end you would have to just trust the scholar and take the set of Hadiths that he calls authentic. (And we know that Sunni and Shia scholar believe in many different Hadiths)

Any may I ask you a personal question? What was the last time you thought about the fatwa of your trusted scholar, read through the arguments, and decided that his is wrong?

Well, i personally don't have a trusted scholar per se, i just follow the Quran and what the Prophet said, and aside from that the scholar i seek for opnion depend on his area of expertise, they are not like encyclopedias or something, right?

I really see no harm in seeing different opinions because at the end, whether it's a scholar or not, we all refer to the Quran and what the Prophet said. The verses and hadiths they use might be correct but sometimes they might not use them for valid arguments.

I hope you got what i mean.

Regarding the hadith, it's not made up. The whole Muslims agree on a specific set of rules to accept hadiths or reject them. Imagine if someone from America, Spain, Yemen, Iraq, Russia, Malaysia all said the same thing without meeting each other, it means they all heard it from the same source right? in a simple way that's how hadith works. Companions of Prophet Mohamed were scattered all over the planet and some scholars of hadith were travelling and collecting these hadiths into books, similar hadith scholars did the same thing without meeting the others who are collecting too. The way they collect and validate is very complex and i just tried to simplify it for you.

Hadith studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Peace.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Salaam, ok I read it.

#1 Most of the references given are for the leaders/elders of the disbelievers.

You know the main meaning of "Kafar" (کف&#1585 is being ungrateful by hiding/denying the truth. "Kaafer" (کاف&#1585 is mostly translated as disbelievers sine they are ungrateful towards the God. You can see examples in Quran that the follower of other religion are also called "Kaafer" (کاف&#1585 since they were ungrateful towards the gift of Quran:

And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them... (2:91)

Believers are also sometimes called "Kaafer" as their behavior is ungrateful:

Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray. (3:90)

In fact, every Muslim is always somewhere between the two states of Belief and Ungratefulness:

... They were nearer to disbelief that day than to faith, saying with their mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah is most Knowing of what they conceal - (3:167)

So I would not rush into dismissing a verse since it has the term "ungrateful" (کف&#1585 in it.

#2 The few references regarding the religious scholars of the other religion's (you stated but I did not find them to be so) leaders of the earlier religions.

My understanding is that Quran tells the story of mistakes of previous religions so that we do not make the same mistakes again. The previous religions had a prophet initially, the prophet dies, and then their religions gets heavily deviated from its origin by following the religious leaders and take their instructions equivalent to the prophet or the God's commands.

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31)

So none of those shows that Allah forbids following Muslim Scholars in Islam.

Lets say there was a verse that would explicitly say "Do not follow Muslim scholars". Then do you really think the current Muslim scholars would adopt the title "scholar". Of course not, otherwise nobody would follow them. The would probabely call themselves "the knowers", or "the educaters".

Quran explains the concepts by telling the stories of the previous mistakes. We are supposed to learn from them and not make the same mistakes.

Last but not least there are examples that are not associated with terms "ungrateful" or "Christianity". They rather associated with the term "People" and the verse is intentionally kept general by using the terms "followers" and "followed" so it would apply to any community and any time:

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah. ... (2:165)
when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship], (2:166) Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire. (2:167)

Allah(swt) assigns role of learning knowledge to some so they can teach others (even though basic learning is obligatory upon everyone ) :
(9:122)

It is a bit unfair to generalize this verse to scholars. What scholars do is not learning Quran and passing it to people. The study a certain literature (whose associativity to Islam is subject to another discussion) and tell people that learning that literature is too difficult and would take years of study. So people have left with no choice but following the scholars instruction that is supposedly inspired by that literature.

During this discussions I never asked you to follow my opinion. I rather presented the arguments that I observed during my studies. You still have the option of verifying the argument and accept/reject them. This is way different from the relationship of scholars and followers.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

My Dear Brother, Shia Islam

There are two ways of reading Quran: (i) first is to adjust our understanding of Quran to match our current culture as well as religious practice of our local community, (ii) the other is to verify our day-to-day life against Quran so that we use Quran as a guidance to find the deviations and correct them.

The former is easier since many people surrounding me would support that and they would acknowledge that I am ion the right path. This acknowledgment is reassuring and would make feel good. The latter however is the most difficult: I would lose the support of the people of my community, and depends on the community their reaction could be as mild as rejecting me or as strong as hanging me. I would have no supporter but the God.

If I do not find any disagreement between Quran any my local religious culture, that is a good hint that I am reading Quran using the first approach.

Safdar

People not only Trust these personalities, they are ready to sacrifice their lives for them...
This is no secret

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah. But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah. And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment. (2:165)

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Regarding the hadith, it's not made up. The whole Muslims agree on a specific set of rules to accept hadiths or reject them. Imagine if someone from America, Spain, Yemen, Iraq, Russia, Malaysia all said the same thing without meeting each other, it means they all heard it from the same source right?

Not sure I quite agree with you in this part. Lets take one of the the MOST authentic Hadiths in Islam: al-Thaqalayn (ثقلی&#1606. Shia and Sunni belief in two hugely different versions of this Hadith:

Shia version:
Zaid bin Arqam, narrated that the messenger of Allah . said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

Sunni version:
according to the Muwatta[3] by Malik ibn Anas:
" 46.3 Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have left two things with you. As long as you hold fast to them, you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet.".

Hadith of the two weighty things - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[cocolia42]

I really wanted to stay out of this conversation...until I read this:

The fact that the scholars discourage people from thinking. They tell them discovering the right way is too complicated for you ordinary people. We did it the effort for you, just trust us and execute our commands (which they claim to be the God's commands). Even if we make a horrible mistake and our command was actually against the God's will, you followers are safe since you had a good intention.

I agree with you that we should not blindly follow any scholar(s). And a scholar such as the type you mention above should not be trusted. BUT, it is important to have scholars.

We (humans) tend to be guided by our desires. We are biased. It is easy for us to come to a conclusion that suits our own desires. Scholars often disagree on issues and it is their responsibility to provide the evidence for their claim. It is our responsibility to look at that evidence with a sincere heart and go with the one we sincerely believe to be right.

Scholars should not discourage us from thinking. Just the opposite. They should help us think by providing the evidence clearly. Could you imagine if we had to read the entire Qur'an and all the Hadith every time some question popped into our minds? The scholars are able to point us in the right direction to examine the evidence for ourselves.

As for this:

just trust us and execute our commands (which they claim to be the God's commands). Even if we make a horrible mistake and our command was actually against the God's will, you followers are safe since you had a good intention.

I don't think so. If we would be safe following the commands of scholars just because of our intentions then the Jews and Christians would be safe too.
When we read the tafsir of ibn Kathir of Surat At-Tawbah we find:

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and the Messiah, son of Maryam) ﴿9:31
﴾. Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from `Adi bin Hatim, may Allah be pleased with him, who became Christian during the time of Jahiliyyah. When the call of the Messenger of Allah reached his area, `Adi ran away to Ash-Sham, and his sister and several of his people were captured. The Messenger of Allah freed his sister and gave her gifts. So she went to her brother and encouraged him to become Muslim and to go to the Messenger of Allah . `Adi, who was one of the chiefs of his people (the tribe of Tai') and whose father, Hatim At-Ta'i, was known for his generosity, went to Al-Madinah. When the people announced his arrival, `Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah;
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).
`Adi commented, "I said, `They did not worship them.''' The Prophet said, (Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.) The Messenger of Allah said to `Adi, (O `Adi what do you say Did you run away (to Ash-Sham) so that 'Allahu Akbar' (Allah is the Great) is not pronounced Do you know of anything greater than Allah What made you run away Did you run away so that `La ilaha illallah' is not pronounced Do you know of any deity worthy of worship except Allah)
The Messenger invited `Adi to embrace Islam, and he embraced Islam and pronounced the Testimony of Truth. The face of the Messenger of Allah beamed with pleasure and he said to `Adi, (Verily, the Jews have earned the anger (of Allah) and the Christians are misguided.) Hudhayfah bin Al-Yaman, `Abdullah bin `Abbas and several others said about the explanation of,
(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah...)
that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said, (while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to; (None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.
​

So look to the scholars for the ayat that you need to examine for yourself, brother.

Allah alam.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

We (humans) tend to be guided by our desires. We are biased. It is easy for us to come to a conclusion that suits our own desires. Scholars often disagree on issues and it is their responsibility to provide the evidence for their claim. It is our responsibility to look at that evidence with a sincere heart and go with the one we sincerely believe to be right.

That is actually a very good point. I had actually listed this as one of the major disadvantages of eliminating scholars from the Islamic practice:
Simple Islam - Hadith-EN
And here is the solution I proposed in that article

Even though, a muslim could express his/her understanding of a good implementation of details and share it with the peers, whose feedback can help revealing the level of interference of the inciting self.

As long as the communication between people and scholar is limited to providing evidence we are on the same page. By this definition Me and You are actually scholars of each other since we provide evidence for our opinion and we do not accept an opinion unless we first verify it.

But is it the case in real life? Do you really see this pattern between the people and scholars?

Scholars should not discourage us from thinking. Just the opposite. They should help us think by providing the evidence clearly. Could you imagine if we had to read the entire Qur'an and all the Hadith every time some question popped into our minds? The scholars are able to point us in the right direction to examine the evidence for ourselves.

Well I do not have to read the entire Quran each time I have a question. A scholar also does not do that. But as a Mulsim I should be reading Quran all the time to verify my lifestyle and belief system against Quran.

Regarding Hadith, I agree with you that I cannot imagine that. I am a well-educated person but I cannot leave my life to read through the many thousands of Hadiths. Actually in contrary to Quran, reading the Hadiths is not sufficient. I would also need to master the science of telling the degree of authenticity of a Hadith.

If you please do me a favor and read the article that I cited in the first post, you will find that Hadith was my main argument against scholars. I argued that the very existence of scholars in the current follower-followed form that Quran warns us about is due to inclusion of Hadith in Islamic practice. I put the link here again and I really really hope you read it.

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Thanks