Must I vote in order to complain?

[PureX]

Must I vote in order to feel justifiably aggrieved concerning the state of the country, etc.? I really think voting is a waste of time for myself, as I have no opinion whatsoever on who should be in power [considering they are all the same anyway- see above].

If someone has the right to vote, and is too lazy or stupid to exercise it with due dilligence, then I would say that person is a fool and that they deserve the lousy politicians that they get. Unfortunately, fellow citizens who do vote and who do try to keep up with the behavior of their representatives suffer because some choose to be the fool.

 

[spacemonkey]

Great episode of South Park about this, its called "Douche and Turd" and is on the recently released 8th season on DVD and I highly recommend watching it. If for no other reason than P Diddy's "Vote or die ************ vote or die".

 

[gnomon]

stemman

This is only correct if one's 'principle' is to vote. If one's principle is something political or depending on politics, then voting is not actually practising it.

I can see your point.

So would I also not be justified in complaining about a pop star's lifestyle, since I could excersie my opportunity to go and stand outside his house or send him a letter telling him to stop taking drugs? Considering that my actions here would cause effectively nothing, it is analogous to the politics situation.

The pop star's lifestyle is truly not open to public opinion. Local elections are and are also far more dependant on an individuals vote than a national election.

Imagine there was a big war and my compatriots fought for the right to own and maintain pot plants. These pot plants contribute, in however small a fashion, to keeping oxygen and carbon dioxide levels balanced in the world.

However, I choose not to own a pot plant. I can't be bothered filling out the registration forms for a pot plant permit and watering it often, making sure it gets sunlight etc. [even though admittedly this does not have to be done often]. Why do people criticise me for not owning one? Just because somebody fought for my right to own one does not mean I should purposely get one, just to somehow retroactively justify the war.

I was referencing, here in the States, the efforts of women and minorities to exercise the same rights already held by others. They didn't fight for my right to vote. Well, actually in a way they did. Just wanted to clarify I'm not talking about those who fought in wars.

I think democracy in this country works even though I myself choose not to vote- I don't believe I make a difference in this matter. I further believe that if everyone in the country suddenly decided to vote voluntarily, then no election outcomes would be any different whatsoever. I believe this because I think the proportion of the country that does vote is representative of the country as a whole.

I highlighted the last because that very well may hold true in the States.

We should be able to vote against democracy. I'm joking, btw.

The communist party is still around.

But anything that I can do is totally ineffectual! Only one-to-many or many-to-many media can actually affect voting outcomes. I dont care which government I get because: a) they will all be fundamentally the same; and b) I can't change it anyway. And I hate coffee, almost as much as I hate international news.

I would disagree. Not all governments are fundamentally the same. Those of us in the states are trying to hold on to a Constitutional Republic (I hope). Federalism currently reigns supreme and I hope that it doesn't continue until Washington D.C. holds all power. I shudder at the thought of living in a theocratic nation or under any sort of dictatorship. We have lost some of our rights in this nation because too many people just stopped caring. Sometimes I blame the media, I always blame the politicians but eventually it comes back to the people.

And I'm not American, so I don't know what 'Primaries' are either. I thank you all for your replies.

It's likened to preseason stupidity.

Honestly, I often feel the way you do. Usually its due to an overwhelming pessimism about the future. But now that many years of overcoming mental health issues and legal problems I'm wanting to get more involved. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment and disappointment.

 

[Booko]

I believe this because I think the proportion of the country that does vote is representative of the country as a whole.

I highlighted the last because that very well may hold true in the States.

I'm not so sure about this. There are still some impediments put in the way of those who tend to be poor and or people of color. I don't know how great the effect is, though.

There are moves here in Georgia anyway, to make it easier for people to vote, and to avoid turning people away for bureaucratic reasons that could be corrected after the polling places close.

The new system of provisional voting is a pain in the butt from ma poll managers pov, but it does prevent us from having to turn people away for silly reasons.

I would disagree. Not all governments are fundamentally the same. Those of us in the states are trying to hold on to a Constitutional Republic (I hope). Federalism currently reigns supreme and I hope that it doesn't continue until Washington D.C. holds all power. I shudder at the thought of living in a theocratic nation or under any sort of dictatorship. We have lost some of our rights in this nation because too many people just stopped caring. Sometimes I blame the media, I always blame the politicians but eventually it comes back to the people.

I'm more concerned about oligarchy, frankly. In many ways, we already have that.

 

[stemann]

I am uncertain about the exact psychological effects of taking such a course of therapy. I know it would not work for me but if it does for you then that is cool.

I like to think it works for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was just self delusion. If the person to whom I am complaining argues back, thus engaging in argument, it usually turns out worse than if I had not said anything at all.

However, you must realise that when somebody complains, any other person will automatically try and find the most efficient solution to the complaints. I'm sure if it became apparent to them that you were not complaining because you didn't like something but refused to do anything about it but you were complaining merely as a way of dealing with your anger then, being more enlightened of your motives, they would have less of a problem with your decision not to vote yet still complain.

It seems to me that, in general, my male friends understand that we all only complain or argue about topics such as this for therapeutic reasons, and thus the arguments are academic at best. However, my female friends seem to take these arguments much more to heart and more seriously, thus causing more anger and annoyance. There are obviously exceptions to this rule; I'm not attempting to be sexist, just stating my observation.

I am saying that there is no point in getting angry over something that either I cannot change or I cannot be bothered to change. In this example, if I could not be bothered to vote or attempt to get what I want in some other way then I have nobody to complain about but myself. If I voted but the vote went against me then complaining is still pointless since I can continue to campaign for what I want. If I felt that an issue was beyond my control and I was powerless to face it then the more healthy option would be to accept it as an inevitable part of my life rather than try and oppose it which would be, by definition, futile.

Acceptance mostly comes after anger for me, but it always comes eventually. Perhaps this is why any views I have have become dull over time, and I don't care much anymore about the things about which I cared in the past.

If you have the right to vote, and are too lazy or stupid to exercise it with due dilligence, then I would say that you are a fool and that you deserve the lousy politicians that you get.

Due diligence (also known as due care) is the effort made by an ordinarily prudent or reasonable party to avoid harm to another party or himself.

So I'm not allowed to vote if it will harm 'another party'? [since it is not contractual, whatever 'party' this may be is undefined- people, countries animals?] This isn't democratic.

If you use one spray of Lynx(tm) then you deserve all the sunburn you get caused by the depletion of the Ozone layer that was in turn caused by the release of chlorofluorocarbons into the atmosphere. Does one spray of Lynx(tm) affect the Ozone layer in such a drastic way? No, it doesn't.

Unfortunately, your fellow citizens who do vote and who do try to keep up with the behavior of their representatives suffer because you choose to be the fool.

How in the hell do they suffer by me personally not voting? How would the Universe, Earth or country of my birth be affected if I did/didn't vote?

I keep up with their behaviour insofar as it goes 'Tony Blair does X,' 'David Cameron criticises Tony Blair for doing X for no reason other than he is the leader of the opposition, and so irrespective of his actual ideological views, the politician in him screams "Attack him!!! He said some certain thing and/or stated his views on some certain issue!!! Disagree quickly!!!"' This is politics in general, and it is why I don't like it, because it is untruthful charades perpetrated by people whose collective goals are actually the same thing: power. Some start out benevolent, but power corrupts.

/takes the moral high ground and moves on

Great episode of South Park about this, its called "Douche and Turd" and is on the recently released 8th season on DVD and I highly recommend watching it. If for no other reason than P Diddy's "Vote or die motherf***** vote or die".

Gah I've actually seen this episode but only remember the beginning, and a small bit at the end where someone says, 'Even if the vote is only between a Douche and a Turd, you should vote anyway.' It was a good episode.

The pop star's lifestyle is truly not open to public opinion. Local elections are and are also far more dependant on an individuals vote than a national election.

Some would say that we have a duty to look out for and protect our fellow man, just as we have a duty to vote. If said pop star is glamourising drink and drugs, having sex with underaged girls, or getting away with other infringements of the Law of the Land, then one could be said to have a duty to attempt to change this.

I was referencing, here in the States, the efforts of women and minorities to exercise the same rights already held by others. They didn't fight for my right to vote. Well, actually in a way they did. Just wanted to clarify I'm not talking about those who fought in wars.

Ok, I see I misinterpreted. Thanks for the clarification.

(Gosh, it's a good job I'm not female, or I would have the suffragette league on my back aswell).

The communist party is still around.

Nixon: "In our darkest hour we can stand erect with proud, upthrust bosoms!"
Fry: "Anyone who laughs is a communist!"

I would disagree. Not all governments are fundamentally the same. Those of us in the states are trying to hold on to a Constitutional Republic (I hope). Federalism currently reigns supreme and I hope that it doesn't continue until Washington D.C. holds all power. I shudder at the thought of living in a theocratic nation or under any sort of dictatorship. We have lost some of our rights in this nation because too many people just stopped caring. Sometimes I blame the media, I always blame the politicians but eventually it comes back to the people.

My earlier comment about them all being fundamentally the same I should state I meant only for England, and then only for the three biggest parties: Labour, Conservative, and Liberal Democrat. I only really believe this because the only party policies that I see are mostly in attack of the other parties or are made in comparison to other parties, and so it just seems like one big slanging match.

This is then solidified by watching any Prime Minister's Questions, whereby the two leaders proceed to call each other and laugh in their little "gangs" while attempting an everlasting puerile game of one-upmanship.

It's likened to preseason stupidity.

Honestly, I often feel the way you do. Usually its due to an overwhelming pessimism about the future. But now that many years of overcoming mental health issues and legal problems I'm wanting to get more involved. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment and disappointment.

I wish I were cool like you masochists

 

[Tigress]

How in the hell do they suffer by me personally not voting? How would the Universe, Earth or country of my birth be affected if I did/didn't vote?

Every one vote counts. Yours could be a tie-breaker, for all you know.

"Pessimism never won any battle." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[stemann]

Every one vote counts. Yours could be a tie-breaker, for all you know.

Are you aware of the probability of that being the case?

"Pessimism never won any battle." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

I personally prefer pessimistic realism to delusions.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Must I vote in order to feel justifiably aggrieved concerning the state of the country, etc.?

Yes.

But that is not the only thing that you should do. You should make your opinion known to as many people as possible, give to candidates that you like, support companies that are involved in political action that you support, and write candidates who are in office telling them why you didn't vote for them and what they can do to get your vote.

 

[Tigress]

Are you aware of the probability of that being the case?

Yes, but there's still that chance.

I personally prefer pessimistic realism to delusions.

Well, how's this then: "In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip." - Daniel L. Reardon

 

[stemann]

Yes.

But that is not the only thing that you should do. You should make your opinion known to as many people as possible, give to candidates that you like, support companies that are involved in political action that you support, and write candidates who are in office telling them why you didn't vote for them and what they can do to get your vote.

I agree with this because this is what I would do if I believed it were worth attempting to change the outcome of a vote, or if I believed my actions would be effective or even heeded.

Well, how's this then: "In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip." - Daniel L. Reardon

That's like saying we should all experience hallucinogenic drugs because even if we die or get arrested, we will have had a good time in our non-realistic mental state beforehand.

 

[PureX]

So I'm not allowed to vote if it will harm 'another party'? [since it is not contractual, whatever 'party' this may be is undefined- people, countries animals?] This isn't democratic.

Well, wasn't that a clever but pointless distraction.

Now, what part of this comment are you disagreeing with: "If someone has the right to vote, and is too lazy or stupid to exercise it with due dilligence, then I would say that person is a fool and that they deserve the lousy politicians that they get." ?

If you use one spray of Lynx(tm) then you deserve all the sunburn you get caused by the depletion of the Ozone layer that was in turn caused by the release of chlorofluorocarbons into the atmosphere. Does one spray of Lynx(tm) affect the Ozone layer in such a drastic way? No, it doesn't.

So by this logic you figure you're absolved of responsibility for your negative behaviors because they have only a small negative effect on the world?

How in the hell do they suffer by me personally not voting? How would the Universe, Earth or country of my birth be affected if I did/didn't vote?

You're trying to hide by making yourself look insignificant. First, you effect yourself. When you don't vote, you tell your political representatives that you don't care who they are or what they do while in office. And if you don't care, then why should they care about you? Second, you effect your family. When you don't bother voting, you are telling your family that you don't care what the government does to them, or for them. And not only are you sending this mesasage to them, but you're backing it up by your own inaction. Third, you are sending the same negative mesage to your neighbors and friends. And you're backing that message up by your inaction, too. And your inaction in this case has an effect. The politicians understand that when you don't vote, you don't care what they do to you, your family, your friends or your neighbors, and so they're just that much more inclined to do as they please, instead of considering the well-being of your family, friends or neighbors.

And lastly, indifference is sometimes infectious. When people who do care about your well-being see that you don't care, yourself, then they become inclined to write you off. After all, why should they care about you or your family when you can't even be bothered to care about these, yourself? And when you obviously don't care about anyone else's, either?

It has been said, and I believe it's true, that the opposite of love is not hatred, but indifference. To not care about your own well-being, the well-being of your family, or your friends, or your neighbors is to not love them. Is that really how you want to live? Are you really so lazy and self-absorbed that you can't even bother to vote once every couple of years for their sakes? And for the sake of your neignbors and friends?

Man! How pathetic is that?

I keep up with their behaviour insofar as it goes 'Tony Blair does X,' 'David Cameron criticises Tony Blair for doing X for no reason other than he is the leader of the opposition, and so irrespective of his actual ideological views, the politician in him screams "Attack him!!! He said some certain thing and/or stated his views on some certain issue!!! Disagree quickly!!!"' This is politics in general, and it is why I don't like it, because it is untruthful charades perpetrated by people whose collective goals are actually the same thing: power. Some start out benevolent, but power corrupts.

Then vote them out of power. At least try. Make noise. Protest. Do what you can. Do your part, and encourage everyone else to do their part, too, and the politicians will have to behave better or know that they'll be tossed out of politics.

Complaining is good. Do it loudly and often, when it's about politics. But complaining and then not voting is idiotic. If they can't hear your words, they will hear your vote. Especially when it's combined with a lot of other similar votes. Then they'll begin to listen to you, because they'll want to know what they can do to stop your from voting them out.

 

[Random]

As a Libertarian Socialist, that is an Anarchist who can organise things , I don't vote at all. I never say never, but I find that inevitably the Big Two parties in virtually every Western democracy are no different in practice, regardless of ideology. They serve the status quo or they won't be in power for long. It's pointless to vote for fringe parties because minority representation means next to nothing and affects nothing. I never can shake the feeling that I'd be electing a mere figurehead, as the real decisions are taken by the non-elect shadowy civil service.

I consider it a responsible, educated choice: a vote for no essential change is a wasted vote, so why bother showing up to sanction a system I disagree with by offering them my preference in a meaningless popularity contest?

Politics an I are just unmixy things in general, I guess, but the problems of abstention and apathy are growing amongst the young especially. Who knows? Maybe that will casue a chain reaction and lead eventually to something better. We can hope.

 

[PureX]

I guess, but the problems of abstention and apathy are growing amongst the young especially. Who knows? Maybe that will casue a chain reaction and lead eventually to something better. We can hope.

Apathy and inaction will lead to nothing but more oppression. Freedom requires respect, appreciation, and vigilance, and believe me, there are plenty of people who would like to take it away from us, and tell us all what we can and can't do.

 

[stemann]

Well, wasn't that a clever but pointless distraction.

Now, what part of this comment are you disagreeing with: "If someone has the right to vote, and is too lazy or stupid to exercise it with due dilligence, then I would say that person is a fool and that they deserve the lousy politicians that they get." ?

Both the 'due diligence' part and the 'deserve' part. It is contrary to the whole point of democracy to say one must exercise one's vote with due diligence. It doesn't make sense to say one 'deserves' a lousy politician when one's reason for not voting is that their vote won't count.

So by this logic you figure you're absolved of responsibility for your negative behaviors because they have only a small negative effect on the world?

After a fashion, yes. Depending on how small the effect of the negative behaviour is, and if the aggregate of all the times it occurs is actually large [such as recycling a small amount every week].

You're trying to hide by making yourself look insignificant.

My argument is that in this instance I am insignificant.

First, you effect yourself. When you don't vote, you tell your political representatives that you don't care who they are or what they do while in office. And if you don't care, then why should they care about you?

So politicians purposely treat people who don't vote differently from those that do?

Second, you effect your family. When you don't bother voting, you are telling your family that you don't care what the government does to them, or for them. And not only are you sending this mesasage to them, but you're backing it up by your own inaction.

No, I am telling them that short of organising a giant protest [which I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do anyway] I can't affect what the government chooses to do. I am pretty sure that, should the government choose to do anything drastic that I would feel strongly enough about to want to change anything, the rest of the population would be outraged enough to vote against them anyway.

Third, you are sending the same negative mesage to your neighbors and friends. And you're backing that message up by your inaction, too.

None of my neighbours or friends know that I don't want to vote [except any that may read this forum] and so I don't affect them.

And your inaction in this case has an effect. The politicians understand that when you don't vote, you don't care what they do to you, your family, your friends or your neighbors, and so they're just that much more inclined to do as they please, instead of considering the well-being of your family, friends or neighbors.

The politicians don't say, 'Aha! This one person didn't vote so therefore let's make laws that take away all his money and possessions, and also all his family's and friends' and neighbours' money and possessions aswell.' My one non-vote won't affect what they do.

And lastly, indifference is sometimes infectious. When people who do care about your well-being see that you don't care, yourself, then they become inclined to write you off. After all, why should they care about you or your family when you can't even be bothered to care about these, yourself? And when you obviously don't care about anyone else's, either?

Firstly, if somebody who formerly cared about me decided to not care about me just because of my reasons for not voting [which I personally think are logical] then I would laugh at that person and would actively encourage them to get the hell out of my life.

Secondly, you are making the fallacious argument that I don't vote because I don't care about family, friends and neighbours, or that if I don't vote that means I can be said not to care. I don't cover all sharp edges and hard surfaces in my house with bubble wrap on the off chance that a member of my family will fall over and hit their head on it, but this does not mean that I don't care about them.

It has been said, and I believe it's true, that the opposite of love is not hatred, but indifference.

I agree with you on this.

To not care about your own well-being, the well-being of your family, or your friends, or your neighbors is to not love them. Is that really how you want to live?

I do care about all their well-being, and it isn't how I live.

Are you really so lazy and self-absorbed that you can't even bother to vote once every couple of years for their sakes? And for the sake of your neignbors and friends?

Man! How pathetic is that?

About as pathetic as disregarding everything I say just because you disagree with my conclusion, and then calling me lazy and self-absorbed anyway; even if I am lazy, self-absorbed and pathetic, this still has no bearing on me not voting.

Then vote them out of power. At least try. Make noise. Protest. Do what you can. Do your part, and encourage everyone else to do their part, too, and the politicians will have to behave better or know that they'll be tossed out of politics.

I have already stated that my part is not enough, and never will be unless I commit and act of terrorism or something, and terrorism never evokes sympathy for the terrorist.

The politicians will never have to behave any better, because everybody is already used to it, and the world is so screwed up that not enough people actually care about what happens overall.

Complaining is good. Do it loudly and often, when it's about politics. But complaining and then not voting is idiotic. If they can't hear your words, they will hear your vote.

No, they won't hear my vote, because it won't affect the outcome. And complaining still won't affect it.

As a Libertarian Socialist, that is an Anarchist who can organise things , I don't vote at all. I never say never, but I find that inevitably the Big Two parties in virtually every Western democracy are no different in practice, regardless of ideology. They serve the status quo or they won't be in power for long.

Exactly.

Apathy and inaction will lead to nothing but more oppression. Freedom requires respect, appreciation, and vigilance, and believe me, there are plenty of people who would like to take it away from us, and tell us all what we can and can't do.

There are plenty of people who don't have it, but our politicians don't care about them, since they don't affect whether or not they remain in power.

 

[stemann]

I've just realised, you were right. It's stupid to think that my one vote doesn't matter, because what if everybody thought like that? I resign this thread.