My "Christian" friends

[Jose Fly]

So here's something that's been on my mind the last week or so....

I have a group of guy friends, all roughly in their 30's to early 40's. We're all married and have kids about the same age and our wives are all good friends. We all get together fairly often, and semi-regularly the guys all get together and do stuff. However, I'm the only non-Christian in the group. Most of the guys work in one manner or another at the church they all go to, with one of them even being a junior pastor (or something like that).

So every once in a while, when we're out doing something one of the guys will do the "You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization. Since I've known these guys for years, I've never had any trouble letting them know how I feel about Christianity and to their credit, it's never gotten heated or anything.

However, recently I've been wondering something....are these guys actually Christians? With the exception of going to church and taking communion, they don't live any different than me. They drink (and get drunk), swear, gamble, watch R-rated movies, comment on women, smoke, and generally do whatever they want. So I'm wondering, what exactly are they trying to convert me to? What exactly am I in need of saving from? It seems to me, their version of "Christianity" is do whatever you like, make no attempt at all to stay away from sin, and once a week say the magic words, drink the magic wine, and eat the magic cracker and it's all good.

So the next time I get asked about going to church or getting "saved", I'm seriously thinking about answering with "Why? What exactly am I being saved from?", and pointing out all the above.

Thoughts?

 

[Skwim]

By asking the question you will likely alienate one or more of them to some degree or another. At least that's been my experience. I've been in somewhat the same position a couple of times, and because of my rational approach to their faith based claims my friends were put off by my inability to accept what they said. It was as if either I was calling them liars, or they didn't like dealing with logic of my remarks. IMHO If you value their friendships I'd stay away from confronting them. I've found most Christians aren't in a position to defend their faith well, and instead are inclined to take it as a personal attack when you challenge their claims.

 

[Jose Fly]

By asking the question you will likely alienate one or more of them to some degree or another. At least that's been my experience. I've been in somewhat the same position a couple of times, and because of my rational approach to their faith based claims my friends were put off by my inability to accept what they said. It was as if either I was calling them liars, or they didn't like dealing with logic of my remarks. IMHO If you value their friendships I'd stay away from confronting them. I've found most Christians aren't in a position to defend their faith well, and instead are inclined to take it as a personal attack when you challenge their claims.

I've had those experiences too, but not with these guys. Actually, in one of the more recent attempts to talk to me about Jesus, I was very clear that I thought the entire belief system is nonsense. They didn't take offense to it at all.

But I'm wondering what might happen if I turn the conversation back on them and their behavior and ask, "How exactly are you a Christian?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

However, recently I've been wondering something....are these guys actually Christians? With the exception of going to church and taking communion, they don't live any different than me. They drink (and get drunk), swear, gamble, watch R-rated movies, comment on women, smoke, and generally do whatever they want. So I'm wondering, what exactly are they trying to convert me to? What exactly am I in need of saving from?

Their God, apparently.

The approach is to sell you the problem and then sell you the solution.

It seems to me, their version of "Christianity" is do whatever you like, make no attempt at all to stay away from sin, and once a week say the magic words, drink the magic wine, and eat the magic cracker and it's all good.

What denomination are they? The bit about Communion makes it sound like they're Catholics, but that doesn't fit with the "junior pastor" thing you mentioned earlier (did you mean deacon?).

What exactly do they consider "sin"? In some denominations, drinking and smoking are no big deal.

Just be careful of imposing your ideas of what it means to be a "proper" Christian on them. Except for internal consistency and hypocrisy, the specifics of their religion are arbitrary unless they're derived from some sort of authority, so it's a bit problematic for someone who doesn't believe in that authority to say that they should practice their religion this way and not that way.

 

[Slo_Motion_BC]

By asking the question you will likely alienate one or more of them to some degree or another. At least that's been my experience. I've been in somewhat the same position a couple of times, and because of my rational approach to their faith based claims my friends were put off by my inability to accept what they said. It was as if either I was calling them liars, or they didn't like dealing with logic of my remarks. IMHO If you value their friendships I'd stay away from confronting them. I've found most Christians aren't in a position to defend their faith well, and instead are inclined to take it as a personal attack when you challenge their claims.

A christian is a footstep follower of Jesus Christ. Thus if Jesus and a million followers walked across a field of snow there would only be one set of footprints.
Thats it in a nutshell. Jesus does not steal so christians must not steal, etc, etc, etc.
smbc

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've had those experiences too, but not with these guys. Actually, in one of the more recent attempts to talk to me about Jesus, I was very clear that I thought the entire belief system is nonsense. They didn't take offense to it at all.

But I'm wondering what might happen if I turn the conversation back on them and their behavior and ask, "How exactly are you a Christian?"

If you really want to get into it, maybe you could approach it a different way: ask them what it means to be a Christian, or how Christian faith expresses itself in a person's life.

Wait for them to pin themselves down to something specific before questioning how their lives adheres to what they say they believe.

 

[Skwim]

I've had those experiences too, but not with these guys. Actually, in one of the more recent attempts to talk to me about Jesus, I was very clear that I thought the entire belief system is nonsense. They didn't take offense to it at all.

But I'm wondering what might happen if I turn the conversation back on them and their behavior and ask, "How exactly are you a Christian?"

I think that would be a dangerous tactic. Unless they've brought up the issue of how you live your life, this could well come across as an indictment of what appears to be their less-than-Christian life style.

 

[Jose Fly]

Their God, apparently.

The approach is to sell you the problem and then sell you the solution.

Oh sure. I've been preached to/at my entire life, so I know the drill quite well. 99% of the time it barely even registers.

What denomination are they? The bit about Communion makes it sound like they're Catholics, but that doesn't fit with the "junior pastor" thing you mentioned earlier (did you mean deacon?).

Lutheran.

What exactly do they consider "sin"? In some denominations, drinking and smoking are no big deal.

That's a good question, and one I'm thinking of asking. I figure if I ask "What do I need saving from", their answer will be "From sin", which leads right to the above.

Just be careful of imposing your ideas of what it means to be a "proper" Christian on them. Except for internal consistency and hypocrisy, the specifics of their religion are arbitrary unless they're derived from some sort of authority, so it's a bit problematic for someone who doesn't believe in that authority to say that they should practice their religion this way and not that way.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I'd approach it more in the form of a question.

If you really want to get into it, maybe you could approach it a different way: ask them what it means to be a Christian, or how Christian faith expresses itself in a person's life.

Wait for them to pin themselves down to something specific before questioning how their lives adheres to what they say they believe.

Yeah, something like that.

 

[Jose Fly]

I think that would be a dangerous tactic. Unless they've brought up the issue of how you live your life, this could well come across as an indictment of what appears to be their less-than-Christian life style.

But isn't the entire idea of trying to "save" me based in how I live my life?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's a good question, and one I'm thinking of asking. I figure if I ask "What do I need saving from", their answer will be "From sin", which leads right to the above.

But from what I know of Lutheran theology, Lutherans preach that people are saved by faith alone. God doesn't judge believers on their works.

Of course, for some of the things you mention, such as smoking and drinking, they might feel that they aren't sins at all in any case.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

When it comes down to it, religious faith is generally nothing more than affectation of belief. It's primarily a tool for social cohesion, not a philisophical reflection on the actual existence of a deity. I wouldn't suggest saying this to religious people though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But isn't the entire idea of trying to "save" me based in how I live my life?

Kinda...

Good works
Lutherans believe that good works are the fruit of faith,[140] always and in every instance.[141] Good works have their origin in God,[142] not in the fallen human heart or in human striving;[143] their absence would demonstrate that faith, too, is absent.[144] Lutherans do not believe that good works are a factor in obtaining salvation; they believe that we are saved by the grace of God - based on the merit of Christ in his suffering and death - and faith in the triune god. Good works are the natural result of faith, not the cause of salvation. Although Christians are no longer compelled to keep God's law, they freely and willingly serve God and their neighbors.[145]

Lutheranism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ChristineES]

I don't go around judging whether people are Christians or not. I don't go around judging whether people are anything or not. I also don't sort my friends by size, shape, religion, or lifestyle. Friends are friends, with no adjectives attached.
I can't read the heart of another person, I don't know what another person is really thinking or not. That person him or herself is the only one that truly knows what he or she is thinking and God (if you believe in God). So I say when someone does something I may or may not approve of, I say "it is between him/her and God" and I truly hope that someone says to me, when I do something he or she doesn't approve of say "it is between her and God" (or "her own choice" if the speaker does not believe in God). So if those friends are Christians or not is between them and God.

 

[Man of Faith]

The OP makes a good point. If Christians don't live differently than the lost then they lose their witness.

 

[ChristineES]

The OP makes a good point. If Christians don't live differently than the lost then they lose their witness.

Yeah, that's true, too. And it is sad.

 

[Jose Fly]

But from what I know of Lutheran theology, Lutherans preach that people are saved by faith alone. God doesn't judge believers on their works.

Right, which leads to an easy rebuttal for me.

Of course, for some of the things you mention, such as smoking and drinking, they might feel that they aren't sins at all in any case.

And if that's the case, then I am not a sinner as I don't do anything they don't do, thus I'm not in need of "saving".

 

[Father Heathen]

So here's something that's been on my mind the last week or so....

I have a group of guy friends, all roughly in their 30's to early 40's. We're all married and have kids about the same age and our wives are all good friends. We all get together fairly often, and semi-regularly the guys all get together and do stuff. However, I'm the only non-Christian in the group. Most of the guys work in one manner or another at the church they all go to, with one of them even being a junior pastor (or something like that).

So every once in a while, when we're out doing something one of the guys will do the "You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization. Since I've known these guys for years, I've never had any trouble letting them know how I feel about Christianity and to their credit, it's never gotten heated or anything.

However, recently I've been wondering something....are these guys actually Christians? With the exception of going to church and taking communion, they don't live any different than me. They drink (and get drunk), swear, gamble, watch R-rated movies, comment on women, smoke, and generally do whatever they want. So I'm wondering, what exactly are they trying to convert me to? What exactly am I in need of saving from? It seems to me, their version of "Christianity" is do whatever you like, make no attempt at all to stay away from sin, and once a week say the magic words, drink the magic wine, and eat the magic cracker and it's all good.

So the next time I get asked about going to church or getting "saved", I'm seriously thinking about answering with "Why? What exactly am I being saved from?", and pointing out all the above.

Thoughts?

They're not perfect, just forgiven. H'yuk.

 

[Jose Fly]

When it comes down to it, religious faith is generally nothing more than affectation of belief. It's primarily a tool for social cohesion, not a philisophical reflection on the actual existence of a deity. I wouldn't suggest saying this to religious people though.

As I said earlier, these are really cool guys and I can say pretty much whatever I want and they don't get offended or upset. I let them know a few years ago that once they broach the subject of Christianity and try to preach at me, they'd better be prepared for me to fully express my views on the subject. Anything less would be hypocritical and I wouldn't be friends with them.

And I have made a similar point about they way this group goes about their faith makes it seem more about social bonding and interaction than anything else. They actually agreed.

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't go around judging whether people are Christians or not. I don't go around judging whether people are anything or not. I also don't sort my friends by size, shape, religion, or lifestyle. Friends are friends, with no adjectives attached.
I can't read the heart of another person, I don't know what another person is really thinking or not. That person him or herself is the only one that truly knows what he or she is thinking and God (if you believe in God). So I say when someone does something I may or may not approve of, I say "it is between him/her and God" and I truly hope that someone says to me, when I do something he or she doesn't approve of say "it is between her and God" (or "her own choice" if the speaker does not believe in God). So if those friends are Christians or not is between them and God.

I agree. But once the "you need to join us and be saved" conversation starts, all bets are off. The conversation itself is rooted in the belief that they have some sort of superior status over me and I am in need of their help.

 

[Jose Fly]

They're not perfect, just forgiven. H'yuk.

That actually would be a decent answer if they made any sort of effort to try and not "sin". But they don't. With the exception of going to church and all that, they live the exact same lifestyle I live.