My "Christian" friends

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And if that's the case, then I am not a sinner as I don't do anything they don't do, thus I'm not in need of "saving".

But that's the thing: they probably think that everyone's a sinner and everyone needs saving, and the way that happens is through Jesus.

Anyone and everyone would fail the test if judged for their sins. However, since they have faith, they're exempt from the test. You don't have faith, so you're not exempt. That's the idea, anyhow.

 

[Jose Fly]

But that's the thing: they probably think that everyone's a sinner and everyone needs saving, and the way that happens is through Jesus.

Anyone and everyone would fail the test if judged for their sins. However, since they have faith, they're exempt from the test. You don't have faith, so you're not exempt. That's the idea, anyhow.

Well, I've never heard anything about being exempt from any test. It seems more about being able to pass the test because they've been forgiven for their sins. But then I have to wonder, how do they ask forgiveness and then turn right around and do the same things all over again with absolutely no sense of remorse or any sort of attempt to avoid the behaviors?

Seems a very shallow sort of faith to me...more like a name tag you stick on your shirt that says "Christian" but doesn't change anything beyond that.

 

[ChristineES]

I agree. But once the "you need to join us and be saved" conversation starts, all bets are off. The conversation itself is rooted in the belief that they have some sort of superior status over me and I am in need of their help.

I agree with you on this one. Most Christians I know at least try to act humble- as Christians are supposed to be humble. There are some Christians that repel more people than they would attract by their superior attitudes. But, as I said, it is between them and God.

 

[Skwim]

But isn't the entire idea of trying to "save" me based in how I live my life?

Indeed it does; however, I've found that those who adhere to a faith are more thin skinned about their religious beliefs than those of us that don't (just my observation) and require a more gentle handling if you want to retain the same friendship. Not that your friends can't be the exception, but I think the odds are against it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, I've never heard anything about being exempt from any test. It seems more about being able to pass the test because they've been forgiven for their sins.

I don't know if this matches up with Lutheran theology because I got it from a non-Lutheran source, but here's an analogy I heard once:

Our sins create a "debt" to God that's "written" in his "book". On judgement day, we will each be called to account and to pay our debt... which will be more than any person is capable of paying. However, for the believer, there will be a note: "paid in full".

But this is all pretty standard Protestant theology: that the question of salvation is effectively a choice of being judged based on your own merits, or being judged based on Christ's merits.

But then I have to wonder, how do they ask forgiveness and then turn right around and do the same things all over again with absolutely no sense of remorse or any sort of attempt to avoid the behaviors?

Seems a very shallow sort of faith to me...more like a name tag you stick on your shirt that says "Christian" but doesn't change anything beyond that.

Yeah... I agree. Even the denominations that say that a believer isn't saved by good works usually say that a believer's faith (or the indwelling Holy Spirit or what-have-you) will be evidenced by good works.

 

[Man of Faith]

I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, curse or go to bars. I don't get tattoos and won't get cremated. Of course I do slip up and sin like everybody, I'm not perfect. I will tell a lie and think to myself, self, why did you do that, Lord forgive me. I'm in church at least three times a weak and I'm a deacon so I am supposed to live right, and visit the sick and widows.

I did go to a bar about three months ago, I was out of town and with a coworker and we were looking for a place to eat. We walked around a while and didn't find anyplace, then there was this pub and I cringed. He said "lets go in there" and I said okay. Boy did I feel out of place and fearful of the demons in there. I made it through though. On the way home he asked me if I thought there were aliens out there. That was my cue to witness and tell him why I didn't think so. Now he knows why I don't curse, because I fear the God almighty!

 

[Father Heathen]

I ... won't get cremated.

Dare I ask why that would matter?

I did go to a bar about three months ago. ... Boy did I feel out of place and fearful of the demons in there. I made it through though.

Phew! I can't tell you how many times I've went into a bar only to stand knee-deep in the dead of those who didn't make it through.

Now he knows why I don't curse, because I fear the God almighty!

Why would god care about our petty, irrational and ultimately meaningless cultural norms?

 

[ChristineES]

I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, curse or go to bars. I don't get tattoos and won't get cremated. Of course I do slip up and sin like everybody, I'm not perfect. I will tell a lie and think to myself, self, why did you do that, Lord forgive me. I'm in church at least three times a weak and I'm a deacon so I am supposed to live right, and visit the sick and widows.

I did go to a bar about three months ago, I was out of town and with a coworker and we were looking for a place to eat. We walked around a while and didn't find anyplace, then there was this pub and I cringed. He said "lets go in there" and I said okay. Boy did I feel out of place and fearful of the demons in there. I made it through though. On the way home he asked me if I thought there were aliens out there. That was my cue to witness and tell him why I didn't think so. Now he knows why I don't curse, because I fear the God almighty!

Jesus sat around drinking wine with tax collectors and hookers. The self-righteous of His day slammed Him on it. I think now you may know how He felt. Maybe

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would god care about our petty, irrational and ultimately meaningless cultural norms?

Of course he would care. God is an anthropomorphization of our ideas of virtue and perfection. He cares about the same things we do... or rather, he cares about the things we think we should care about.

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course he would care. God is an anthropomorphization of our ideas of virtue and perfection. He cares about the same things we do... or rather, he cares about the things we think we should care about.

I realize that, but if there was a god for real he wouldn't be this anthropomorphized projection of our own egos, emotions and cultural norms. "He" would obviously transcend the cartoon caricaturizations that religions paint of "him".

 

[Man of Faith]

Jesus sat around drinking wine with tax collectors and hookers. The self-righteous of His day slammed Him on it. I think now you may know how He felt. Maybe

Yes, but I'm not Jesus! Don't get me drunk and put a hooker in my lap! Seriously man should avoid temptation unless you are part of the trinity.

And I'm not selfrighteous, my righteousness comes from above.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't get me drunk and put a hooker in my lap!

And don't throw me into the briar patch!

I didn't realize you were a fan of reverse psychology.

 

[ChristineES]

Yes, but I'm not Jesus! Don't get me drunk and put a hooker in my lap! Seriously man should avoid temptation unless you are part of the trinity.

And I'm not selfrighteous, my righteousness comes from above.

I don't drink or smoke either. I wasn't calling you self-righteous, I am sorry you took it that way. I was just saying it is very easy to judge someone you see in a bar- you don't know what they are doing there. And a little alcohol is OK (even though I don't drink) as long you don't overdo it or you are not an alcoholic (I don't drink because 1/2 my family is alcoholic and I don't want to take a chance on that, )

 

[Man of Faith]

And don't throw me into the briar patch!

I didn't realize you were a fan of reverse psychology.

Ok, that's funny.

 

[Man of Faith]

I don't drink or smoke either. I wasn't calling you self-righteous, I am sorry you took it that way. I was just saying it is very easy to judge someone you see in a bar- you don't know what they are doing there. And a little alcohol is OK (even though I don't drink) as long you don't overdo it or you are not an alcoholic (I don't drink because 1/2 my family is alcoholic and I don't want to take a chance on that, )

Point well taken.

 

[Father Heathen]

And a little alcohol is OK

Jesus did turn water into wine, after all.

 

[Jose Fly]

Indeed it does; however, I've found that those who adhere to a faith are more thin skinned about their religious beliefs than those of us that don't (just my observation) and require a more gentle handling if you want to retain the same friendship. Not that your friends can't be the exception, but I think the odds are against it.

Well, truth be told the reason this has been increasingly on my mind is that the proselytizing has been ramping up as of late. Given that I've made myself pretty clear on the subject, it's somewhat frustrating.

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't know if this matches up with Lutheran theology because I got it from a non-Lutheran source, but here's an analogy I heard once:

Our sins create a "debt" to God that's "written" in his "book". On judgement day, we will each be called to account and to pay our debt... which will be more than any person is capable of paying. However, for the believer, there will be a note: "paid in full".

But this is all pretty standard Protestant theology: that the question of salvation is effectively a choice of being judged based on your own merits, or being judged based on Christ's merits.

I've heard something like that too, and some different versions as well. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist environment, so I'm more used to the Chick Tract version of judgement.

Yeah... I agree. Even the denominations that say that a believer isn't saved by good works usually say that a believer's faith (or the indwelling Holy Spirit or what-have-you) will be evidenced by good works.

And to be fair, these guys do a lot of good stuff through the church, e.g. charity work, raising money for the poor, building homes in poor parts of the world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, truth be told the reason this has been increasingly on my mind is that the proselytizing has been ramping up as of late. Given that I've made myself pretty clear on the subject, it's somewhat frustrating.

If that's the issue, then why not address it directly. Have you told them how you feel about what they're doing? If they're really your friends, they should respect this.

Also, from what I gather, Lutherans are monergists, so unless I'm missing something, it's not like they should really think that they could do anything to cause your salvation anyhow.

 

[Skwim]

Well, truth be told the reason this has been increasingly on my mind is that the proselytizing has been ramping up as of late. Given that I've made myself pretty clear on the subject, it's somewhat frustrating.

Then I think a polite, but direct request to cease and desist is in order rather than initiating further discussion by challenging them.