My experience in Vrindavan

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Since they are sampradaya-s, then, by default, they would qualify for being considered as "bhakti cults".

Now, am sure you already knew i wouldn't buy into this one sampradāyas only mean authentic tradition.

because I became discouraged with, what I saw to be at least, the scoffing of "logical" approaches

which is another reason why Indian dialectics was so incredibly beautiful!

I can't agree more with you, Poeticus ji, than on this, i guess. If only people in general understood the conviction with which dialectics (and dialecticians) present their views and critically appraise that of the opponents, with their very basis of individuality at stake, for a siddhānta that inspires their essence-of-being, am sure there will be much more respect and appreciation for "bhakti of the wise and valorous", not to mention the overall augmentation of understanding of various haindava traditions. If only people took to heart the vaidik prolegomena:
यदेव विद्यया करोति श्रद्धयोपनिषदा तदेव वीर्यवत्तरं भवति ।
yadeva vidyayā karoti śraddhayopaniṣadā tadeva vīryavattaraṁ bhavati |

Krishna too gave upadeśa of Gītā, unarguably the greatest text on bhakti, to none other than Arjuna - the ambidextrous (savyasāci) - one who could use both parts of his brain effectively.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Asha]

Namaste

Thank you for your reply, Tattva-ji. I believe every Shaiva, Shakta, and Vaishnava sampradaya to be a bhakti cult, even the most glorious Ramanandi sect that prostrates before the unconquerable Lord Shri Ram. Since they are sampradaya-s, then, by default, they would qualify for being considered as "bhakti cults". I adopted this as a rather poor continuation of my earlier satirical post (because I became discouraged with, what I saw to be at least, the scoffing of "logical" approaches). But yes, of course there can never be any scope for plagiarism since the rules pertaining to commentaries would recommend acharya-s and philosophers to continuously add and refine previous hypotheses and thoughts (which is another reason why Indian dialectics was so incredibly beautiful!). And thank you for your link, I shall definitely consider the Tarkatandava for future reading (You Vedantists are so stubborn! Like me, a Hindu that is of the "bahudeva" line. ).

Iam sorry I do not understand the relevance of this to a post on Vrindavana ?

To a Vaisnava this Bhakti you seem to scoff at is a spontaniously occuring symptom of love.

It seems that you care more for Dialetics than you do for God ?

Prehaps I do not understand your jokes ?

Hinduism must mean something very different to you, please could you explain which tradition you belong to ?

Satire aside, what made both Astika and Nastika schools of thought once great was their tendency to challenge, to consistently and constantly test hypothesis against hypothesis. Before the bhakti cults arose,

It seems that you give little credit to the Bhakti schools as if they are only of recent origin ?

Many Bhaktas will not be happy with this assumption it seems that you forget the devotion of Lord Ramachandra and the Great Bhakta Lord Hanuman ?

These are devotees from a previous yuga !

And what of Pralada Maharaj He came long before the time of Lord Ramachandra ?

So your Astika and Nastika adherents why did they need to debate and test hypothesis ?

Hypothesis of what ?

Please be honest you do not know the age of the Bhakti traditions do you ?
and have you even given it much thought ?

What about Sri Narada muni ?

Why do you feel the need to prove that your ''darhana'' is the most ancient and the most great ?

this is how those of the Veda-derived darshana-s operated. This wasn't anything about ego. To stress such "material inquiries" as inherently inferior to "devotional practices" downplays the greatness of earlier realities that gave the Dharmically-inclined so much, what many Hindus now, and I assume you are Hindu since you freely post non-question posts in the Hindu DIR, often take for granted without giving proper credit due to the ancient darshana-s. Such decadent spiritually-devoid inquiries most certainly did help ancient Hindus have spiritual realizations. And they did it without relinquishing logic, without ever involving ego. What drove them most fervently was curiosity. And it was through that curiosity that they arrived at both the defenses of the Absolute as well as, what the Mimamsaka-s later derived at but now widely parroted by many Astika-s without ever consulting their works, the non-authorship of the Veda-s.

It is fine we all come from different traditions let us just respect each other, who cares who is the older dont we all go back to the begining of time ?

As Gaudiya Vaisnavas our Sampradaya is Sri Brahma Madhava Gaudiya Sampradaya which means yes we trace our liniage back to Lord Brahma the Creator of this universe. Do we need to go further back than that ?

Am curious, which of the schools would be considered "bhakti cults" and other than the classification as such by western orientalists, your rationale for approving/adopting it? Also, most later schools, at least the tattvavāda school, do consider the pūrva-mīmāṅsakas thesis (pūrvapakṣa) about apauruṣeyatva and svataḥ-prāmāṇya and suggest improvements. And i know for a fact that you fully understand the pūrvapakṣa-siddhānta methodology, there can never be any scope for plagiarism

Please I must ask why ''Cult'' is Bhakti not our natural condition ?
who cares what ''western orientalists'' think or say or what clasification they use.

I can only agree with Nayana prabhu

The path of Bhakti is forever fresh, we are always being revealed various pastimes of the lord through our gurus.

Material Logic is not able to grasp the workings of the lord or the feelings of bhakti. This is the reason we surrender to the Lord and Guru for it to be revealed to us. Logical debates keep us locked in the cycle of samsara and material existence. They do not help us to have spiritual realisations. Many of the Saints of Vraja were very simple people with almost no education, some were erudite scholars, they all hold in common the process of relinquishing logic and surrendering the ego to the Guru and the Lord.

The beautiful thing about Bhakti is that one dosent have to be interllecualy qualified it just spontaniously overflows from the heart Because of this I can think of nothing more pleasing to God, as Bhakti is open to any one the uneducated and the interllectual alike.

 

[Prayag Das]

Dear Asha:

Yes, I agree, what do many of these comments have to do with the original post?

Nayana did bring up the subject that some consider their guru infallible in all respects. And even though Srila Prabhupada had some opinions that most find harsh and hard to believe, this should not be a reason to reject all of his teachings. His teachings on how to develop love for Krishna are perfect.

Prabhupada said during a lecture on BG3.1-5 in Los Angeles on December 20, 1968:

"Religion without philosophy is sentiment or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation. The ultimate goal is Krsna."

People who accept just a tiny bit of the guru's teachings without learning the philosophy of their sampradaya do tend to become fanatics. I have painful personal experience of this.

I agree that we don't have to become scholars in order to execute devotional service, but the danger is that if we do not have some knowledge of the sastras, then it is easy for us to be mislead. We have to be sure that what the guru is teaching is does not contradict the sastras or previous acaryas. At least this is what Prabhupada taught.

Hare Krishna.

Prayag das

 

[Nayana]

When the quote I posted mentioned "the Logic School", it was referring to the Nyaya Darshana. This is the same Astika school of thought that gave, and heavily influenced, the many sampradaya-s we have today the idea of Ishwara, the concept of there being an Absolute. In other words, these are the same "material logicians", who in their dismal materialistic ignorance, born from a thorough relinquishing of spiritual reservoirs, brought about and solidified what ISCKONITES today refer to as "Absolute Personality". Kind of ironic for such degenerate "material logicians" to have articulated something in their spiritually decadent debates a theological concept now so heavily appropriated by almost every single sampradaya we know today, eh?

Satire aside, what made both Astika and Nastika schools of thought once great was their tendency to challenge, to consistently and constantly test hypothesis against hypothesis. Before the bhakti cults arose, this is how those of the Veda-derived darshana-s operated. This wasn't anything about ego. To stress such "material inquiries" as inherently inferior to "devotional practices" downplays the greatness of earlier realities that gave the Dharmically-inclined so much, what many Hindus now, and I assume you are Hindu since you freely post non-question posts in the Hindu DIR, often take for granted without giving proper credit due to the ancient darshana-s. Such decadent spiritually-devoid inquiries most certainly did help ancient Hindus have spiritual realizations. And they did it without relinquishing logic, without ever involving ego. What drove them most fervently was curiosity. And it was through that curiosity that they arrived at both the defenses of the Absolute as well as, what the Mimamsaka-s later derived at but now widely parroted by many Astika-s without ever consulting their works, the non-authorship of the Veda-s.

I must apologise if I have offended you.
I completely agree that logic is an essential part of our lives, I myself am a scientist and I fully appreciate logic and academic learning. I fully support debate in a material sense when dealing with material matters such as: government, schooling etc.
However, debates dealing with genuine realisations and revelations of the lord and debating between schools of thoughts I cannot agree with. The Lord is constantly revealing to us. I must admit my ignorance of the Nyaya Shastra, however Bhaktivinod Thakur and other Babajis of Vraj explained it's teachings in length and the vast majority of their detractors and people who challenged them to debate were indeed students of Nyaya. As well many of the Babaji's came to Krishna through Nyaya.
I appreciate the various paths and callings we have to be devotees whether it be through Parvati/Shiva-Lila, RadheKrishna/Lila etc.
Devotees who follow Nyaya may very well be highly advanced devotees, There is no doubt and no teaching from my Gurus that does not support this. However from the readings that I follow it does say that the understanding of the Lord through debate is not bad however it does not give the debaters the feeling of full Prema and the ability to leave samsara. Much like how Bhuddism or following the path of Sattivka as set out by the vedas, does make one inclined to Bhakti but will not provide love of RadheShyam.

I do not feel it to be true that the concept ISKON and other sampradayas hold to be the "Absolute Personality" comes from anyone. The Lord is the Lord and through worship and association of the Lords devotees we come to understand the Lord fully in Prema. The Lord reveals their personalities to their disciples, no debate can bring an understanding of the Lord. However, those who engaged in studying Nyaya are meditating and worshiping the Lord so naturally have experiences of love, devotion and revelations.
In Jaiva Dharma these points are explained very eloquently, I am not doing as much.

 

[Asha]

Welcome Nayana

Hari Bol !

Oh I don't think people on here do, I mean people in general. This was just a post about my general experience with the devotee community. I grew up amongst a lot of devotees fighting about nit bits said by various gurus. Basically the end result was that I didn't end up learning about the religion of my family and only now starting to discover it.

So nice.
I so am glad for you. Is it the first time you visited Vrindarvana ?

Is your family from Gaudiya Math or from ISKCON ?

I dont realy worry too much about the divisions or the petty arguments, that is just a stupid human trait it happens everywhere so please do not let this put you off.

I don't come on here much but I wanted to share my experience somehow, I forgot how much skill it takes to write on the internet and get your point across by writing only!

And please do tell us more about these books you have been given they sound realy interesting.

Jai Shree Krishna

Asha

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste



Iam sorry I do not understand the relevance of this to a post on Vrindavana ?

To a Vaisnava this Bhakti you seem to scoff at is a spontaniously occuring symptom of love.

It seems that you care more for Dialetics than you do for God ?

Prehaps I do not understand your jokes ?

Hinduism must mean something very different to you, please could you explain which tradition you belong to ?



It seems that you give little credit to the Bhakti schools as if they are only of recent origin ?

Many Bhaktas will not be happy with this assumption it seems that you forget the devotion of Lord Ramachandra and the Great Bhakta Lord Hanuman ?

These are devotees from a previous yuga !

And what of Pralada Maharaj He came long before the time of Lord Ramachandra ?

So your Astika and Nastika adherents why did they need to debate and test hypothesis ?

Hypothesis of what ?

Please be honest you do not know the age of the Bhakti traditions do you ?
and have you even given it much thought ?

What about Sri Narada muni ?

Why do you feel the need to prove that your ''darhana'' is the most ancient and the most great ?



It is fine we all come from different traditions let us just respect each other, who cares who is the older dont we all go back to the begining of time ?

As Gaudiya Vaisnavas our Sampradaya is Sri Brahma Madhava Gaudiya Sampradaya which means yes we trace our liniage back to Lord Brahma the Creator of this universe. Do we need to go further back than that ?




Please I must ask why ''Cult'' is Bhakti not our natural condition ?
who cares what ''western orientalists'' think or say or what clasification they use.

Either I am being severely misunderstood, or my posts are being read tangentially. And both of these probabilities are a strong cause for concern. Nowhere do I prove, let alone try to prove, that my darshana is the "most ancient and the most great"---I do not even mention the darshana that I am a part of. In fact, I am not even a part of an Astika-derived darshana. Furthermore, neither do I discuss about which darshana is the greatest because it is, or happens to be, the oldest. Next, nowhere do I express that Indian dialectics is "greater than God". And lastly, nowhere am I joking.

If my posts were read comprehensively, one can easily realize that I respond to only two articulations already made beforehand, simply following the logic of their posts. The first is in regards to notions of infallibility regarding guru-s. The second is the affirmation by Nayana that logical debates "do not help us to have spiritual realisations", which as per the history of Indian dialectics, using the Nyaya Darshana as a mere example to simply counter that assertion, is incorrect. That is all.

 

[Shantanu]

Before the bhakti cults arose, this is how those of the Veda-derived darshana-s operated. This wasn't anything about ego. To stress such "material inquiries" as inherently inferior to "devotional practices" downplays the greatness of earlier realities that gave the Dharmically-inclined so much, what many Hindus now, and I assume you are Hindu since you freely post non-question posts in the Hindu DIR, often take for granted without giving proper credit due to the ancient darshana-s. Such decadent spiritually-devoid inquiries most certainly did help ancient Hindus have spiritual realizations. And they did it without relinquishing logic, without ever involving ego. What drove them most fervently was curiosity. And it was through that curiosity that they arrived at both the defenses of the Absolute as well as, what the Mimamsaka-s later derived at but now widely parroted by many Astika-s without ever consulting their works, the non-authorship of the Veda-s.

Are you suggesting that the same curiosity, science and logical reasoning does not lead to Bhagavad Gita-type realisations?

 

[Nayana]

Wow, a lot of discussion. I am currently very busy with university but will respond in a few days to your messages.

 

[Nayana]

Welcome Nayana

Hari Bol !



So nice.
I so am glad for you. Is it the first time you visited Vrindarvana ?

Is your family from Gaudiya Math or from ISKCON ?

I dont realy worry too much about the divisions or the petty arguments, that is just a stupid human trait it happens everywhere so please do not let this put you off.




And please do tell us more about these books you have been given they sound realy interesting.

Jai Shree Krishna

Asha

Yes, this is my very first time to Vrindavan AND India. My family is from Yawal, near the Maharashtra/MP/Gujarat boarder and I grew up in australia around the Hare Krishna ISKCON movement.

My parents met in ISKCON and married. My mother later accepted a Guru, Narayana Maharaja. So i guess we are Gaudiya Math and not strictly ISKCON however, I was briefly in childhood part of ISKCON. There isn't really a difference, ISKCON is great as a place to learn for anyone, however as an organisation there are huge issues that are never dealt with. Whenever I hear the story of someone leaving Gaudiya Vaishnavism it seems its mainly due to opinions and problems with ISKCON rather then literature and the religion itself.

My years as a Hare Krishna

This is an example. Its seems this is a common theme for devotees from places in the 'west'.

On one hand I can understand why ISKCON tries to control the reading material and learning of people in the movement to make sure they develop a strong base of understanding to build upon which many have done successfully, but this gets abused a lot. Religious organisations are a magnet for megalomaniacs and narcissists.

Well I stayed in a temple next to Imlee Tal and just behind Seva Kunj called Gopi Nath Bhavan. Some titles that I bought were: "Walking with a saint 2007", "The nectar of Govardhana Lila", "Jaiva Dharma", "Caitanya-caritamrta", "The art of Chanting Hare Krishna" *I will edit in more*.
I haven't had a chance to read them all yet.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Nayana ji

Yes, this is my very first time to Vrindavan AND India. My family is from Yawal, near the Maharashtra/MP/Gujarat boarder and I grew up in australia around the Hare Krishna ISKCON movement.

you have raised some very interesting points in this post , ....please if you dont mind my asking you are of Indian decent , although you are born in Australia ? ...do you think this makes things a little different for you ?
here in the UK the Indian Families are very keen to bring their children up in some kind of temple enviroment and start them following the principles from an early age ,....

this link you gave is very interesting , ....My years as a Hare Krishna , ......although the writer is speaking about Australia what she says is also very typical here is the UK , ....many westerners un UK and Europe start when they are younger with high ideals but a fair percentage drop out again , ...it is not so much due to ISKCON politics as it is due to the western mentality , ...

so many times it is due to the influence of other freinds , work colegues etc , ...A lot of westerners join because it is like droping out of the societal l norms for a westerner , it is a great life being a devotee when you are young it is like one Giant party , ....travel , go to India , ...but westerners who are not brought up in the tradition often dont fully understand the concept of surrender , ..so because of this there are many personality clashes and fallings out .

My parents met in ISKCON and married. My mother later accepted a Guru, Narayana Maharaja. So i guess we are Gaudiya Math and not strictly ISKCON however, I was briefly in childhood part of ISKCON. There isn't really a difference, ISKCON is great as a place to learn for anyone, however as an organisation there are huge issues that are never dealt with. Whenever I hear the story of someone leaving Gaudiya Vaishnavism it seems its mainly due to opinions and problems with ISKCON rather then literature and the religion itself.

I have freinds who left Gaudiya Math , ...the problem is allways over opinions and power struggles within the management , ....If we can see past this and just concentrate on our sadhana things are very different , ...

This is an example. Its seems this is a common theme for devotees from places in the 'west'.

the link you gave was interesting , and yes very tipical of the west , the temptation of material life is still very strong so for many it is a bit of a battle deciding which to follow , ...

On one hand I can understand why ISKCON tries to control the reading material and learning of people in the movement to make sure they develop a strong base of understanding to build upon which many have done successfully, but this gets abused a lot. Religious organisations are a magnet for megalomaniacs and narcissists.

I think this must be a problem for all organisations , ...the ego is very strong in this age of Kali .... this is why I ask if you feel growing up in an Indian devote family helps , prehaps by training you in the correct attitude to devotional life from an early age ?

I notice now that more temples here are becoming prediminantly Indian with fewer westerners ,....the book reading and strict study programs are to make sure that they do not loose their Culture , ...I think ISKCON is going through some big changes , ....

Well I stayed in a temple next to Imlee Tal and just behind Seva Kunj called Gopi Nath Bhavan. Some titles that I bought were: "Walking with a saint 2007", "The nectar of Govardhana Lila", "Jaiva Dharma", "Caitanya-caritamrta", "The art of Chanting Hare Krishna" *I will edit in more*.
I haven't had a chance to read them all yet.

sounds wonderfull , ....how long did you stay ?

 

[Nayana]

namaskaram Nayana ji



you have raised some very interesting points in this post , ....please if you dont mind my asking you are of Indian decent , although you are born in Australia ? ...do you think this makes things a little different for you ?
here in the UK the Indian Families are very keen to bring their children up in some kind of temple enviroment and start them following the principles from an early age ,....

Yes I was born very close to an ISKCON farm that my parents were living on at the time. Personally since I had almost no contact with my Indian parent I was raised as a westerner basically by my mother and had sporadic exposure that I didn't quite understand. Indian families in Australia tend to raise their children with the cultural values but very rarely do any of them express anything deeper. Much like Christians and Sunday church.

this link you gave is very interesting , ....My years as a Hare Krishna , ......although the writer is speaking about Australia what she says is also very typical here is the UK , ....many westerners un UK and Europe start when they are younger with high ideals but a fair percentage drop out again , ...it is not so much due to ISKCON politics as it is due to the western mentality , ...

so many times it is due to the influence of other freinds , work colegues etc , ...A lot of westerners join because it is like droping out of the societal l norms for a westerner , it is a great life being a devotee when you are young it is like one Giant party , ....travel , go to India , ...but westerners who are not brought up in the tradition often dont fully understand the concept of surrender , ..so because of this there are many personality clashes and fallings out .

I think the religion is quite difficult to integrate with typical western behaviour. I found myself at around 19 deciding to abandon my beliefs as I was too unsure of them and started eating meat while in a relationship. I felt like I fit in so much more with friends and society in general. Although I know that is considered quite bad and a lot of devotees would simply cut off contact with me because of that but I think it ties in with what you are saying. When people come initial to the religion they are given a choice and they are pressured to make radical life choices which take them on amazing highs but there is no support when it hits the low times and they haven't been able to build up social/personal structures to be able to continue without constant association. Thus they drop out and don't come back.
The reason I came back shortly after that was due to exposure in childhood and a reasonable understanding of the philosophy which enabled me to understand easier and research independently.

I think this must be a problem for all organisations , ...the ego is very strong in this age of Kali .... this is why I ask if you feel growing up in an Indian devote family helps , prehaps by training you in the correct attitude to devotional life from an early age ?

No unfortunately I didn't get much information. Lack of support in the community and ISKCON's tendency to burn people out meant that I very much was like an 'outsider' coming to the religion. However yes the exposure that I did have early on in life left a lasting impression.

sounds wonderfull , ....how long did you stay ?

I stayed in India for a month. It was amazing to soak up the culture of my family and their religious practices. Funnily enough they have deities from Vrindavan and followed Gaudiya Vaishnavism after my grandmother had gone on pilgrimage and brought the knowledge back.