My first post

[Muffled]

stevecanuck said: ↑
Then why aren't you a Muslim? Islam (via the Qur'an) tells you a few times that God does not have a son. It tells you Jesus is merely a prophet and that he did not die on the cross.

Jesus was born of Mary, and Mary was not a wife of any god, was she @Muffled , please?
Right?
Anybody please

Regards

I believe that is right. She was betrothed to Joseph a man. However that is not relevant to the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[Muffled]

9:111 is a good example - "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Every verse in the Qur'an has context. Allah had a reason for each verse being revealed when it was. However, that does not change what the verse says. Above, Allah is saying he will grant heaven to those who fight, kill, and die "fee sabil Allah". That's a context-independent statement of policy. Pure and simple.

I believe paradise and Heaven and The Kingdom of God are three different places. Who knows whether the translator got it right or not. One would have to look at the context.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe all the NT is the writing of Jesus but not by His hand, by His Spirit.

Please quote from the 4 Gospels that they did not write these but the Spirit of Jesus wrote these. Right?
Please don't blame or accuse Jesus of doing things he had no hand in. Right?

Regards

 

[stevecanuck]

Please quote from the 4 Gospels that they did not write these but the Spirit of Jesus wrote these. Right?
Please don't blame or accuse Jesus of doing things he had no hand in. Right?

Regards

You asked for the context around 2:98 and I gave it to you. I believe you owe me a response. Right?

 

[paarsurrey]

You asked for the context around 2:98 and I gave it to you. I believe you owe me a response. Right?

Please quote the verse in question in Arabic with translation , alongwith the preceding and following verses. One could then substantiate one's point of view.
Don't worry about winning, I don't discuss for winning. If one writes for winning then I declare one a " winner" for one's pleasure even before the discussion.
Then we will discuss. Right?

Regards

 

[stevecanuck]

Please quote the verse in question in Arabic with translation , alongwith the preceding and following verses. One could then substantiate one's point of view.
Don't worry about winning, I don't discuss for winning. If one writes for winning then I declare one a " winner" for one's pleasure even before the discussion.
Then we will discuss. Right?

Regards

Wow, you can't be serious. I've given you more than enough to discuss this. I've jumped through your hoops thus far, but this request is too absurd for words. Get. Lost.

 

[paarsurrey]

Please quote the verse in question in Arabic with translation , alongwith the preceding and following verses. One could then substantiate one's point of view.
Don't worry about winning, I don't discuss for winning. If one writes for winning then I declare one a " winner" for one's pleasure even before the discussion.
Then we will discuss. Right?

To demonstrate as to what I mean here, I will give Verse 2:98 as a central verse and give some verses preceding (say 5 verses) and some following (say 5):

2:94
وَاِذۡ اَخَذۡنَا مِیۡثَاقَکُمۡ وَرَفَعۡنَا فَوۡقَکُمُ الطُّوۡرَ ؕ خُذُوۡا مَاۤ اٰتَیۡنٰکُمۡ بِقُوَّۃٍ وَّاسۡمَعُوۡا ؕ قَالُوۡا سَمِعۡنَا وَعَصَیۡنَا ٭ وَاُشۡرِبُوۡا فِیۡ قُلُوۡبِہِمُ الۡعِجۡلَ بِکُفۡرِہِمۡ ؕ قُلۡ بِئۡسَمَا یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ بِہٖۤ اِیۡمَانُکُمۡ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ مُّؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿۹۴﴾
And remember the time, when We took a covenant from you and raised high above you the Mount, saying: ‘Hold firmly to what We have given you and hearken;’ they said: ‘We hear and we disobey;’ and their hearts were permeated with the love of the calf because of their disbelief. Say: ‘Evil is that which your faith enjoins on you, if you have any faith!’
2:95
قُلۡ اِنۡ کَانَتۡ لَکُمُ الدَّارُ الۡاٰخِرَۃُ عِنۡدَ اللّٰہِ خَالِصَۃً مِّنۡ دُوۡنِ النَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُا الۡمَوۡتَ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ صٰدِقِیۡنَ ﴿۹۵﴾
Say: ‘If the abode of the Hereafter, with Allah, is solely for you to the exclusion of all other people, then wish for death, if you are truthful.’
2:96
وَلَنۡ یَّتَمَنَّوۡہُ اَبَدًۢا بِمَا قَدَّمَتۡ اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ ؕ وَاللّٰہُ عَلِیۡمٌۢ بِالظّٰلِمِیۡنَ ﴿۹۶﴾
But never shall they wish for it, because of what their own hands have sent on before them; and Allah knows the wrongdoers well.
2:97
وَلَتَجِدَنَّہُمۡ اَحۡرَصَ النَّاسِ عَلٰی حَیٰوۃٍ ۚۛ وَمِنَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَشۡرَکُوۡا ۚۛ یَوَدُّ اَحَدُہُمۡ لَوۡ یُعَمَّرُ اَلۡفَ سَنَۃٍ ۚ وَمَا ہُوَ بِمُزَحۡزِحِہٖ مِنَ الۡعَذَابِ اَنۡ یُّعَمَّرَ ؕ وَاللّٰہُ بَصِیۡرٌۢ بِمَا یَعۡمَلُوۡنَ ﴿٪۹۷﴾
And thou shalt surely find them of all people, the most covetous of life, even more than those who set up equals with God. Every one of them wishes that he may be granted a life of a thousand years, but his being granted such life shall not keep him away from the punishment; and Allah sees all that they do.
2:98
قُلۡ مَنۡ کَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبۡرِیۡلَ فَاِنَّہٗ نَزَّلَہٗ عَلٰی قَلۡبِکَ بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَہُدًی وَّبُشۡرٰی لِلۡمُؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿۹۸﴾
Say: ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel — for he it is who has caused it to descend on thy heart by the command of Allah, which fulfils that which precedes it, and is a guidance and glad tidings to the believers —
2:99
مَنۡ کَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّلّٰہِ وَمَلٰٓئِکَتِہٖ وَرُسُلِہٖ وَجِبۡرِیۡلَ وَمِیۡکٰٮلَ فَاِنَّ اللّٰہَ عَدُوٌّ لِّلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ ﴿۹۹﴾
‘Whoever is an enemy to Allah, and His angels, and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then surely, Allah is an enemy to such disbelievers.’
2:100
وَلَقَدۡ اَنۡزَلۡنَاۤ اِلَیۡکَ اٰیٰتٍۭ بَیِّنٰتٍ ۚ وَمَا یَکۡفُرُ بِہَاۤ اِلَّا الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰۰﴾
And surely, We have sent down to thee manifest Signs, and no one disbelieves in them but the disobedient.
2:101
اَوَکُلَّمَا عٰہَدُوۡا عَہۡدًا نَّبَذَہٗ فَرِیۡقٌ مِّنۡہُمۡ ؕ بَلۡ اَکۡثَرُہُمۡ لَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰۱﴾
What! every time they make a covenant, will a party among them throw it aside? Nay, most of them have no faith.
2:102
وَلَمَّا جَآءَہُمۡ رَسُوۡلٌ مِّنۡ عِنۡدِ اللّٰہِ مُصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَہُمۡ نَبَذَ فَرِیۡقٌ مِّنَ الَّذِیۡنَ اُوۡتُوا الۡکِتٰبَ ٭ۙ کِتٰبَ اللّٰہِ وَرَآءَ ظُہُوۡرِہِمۡ کَاَنَّہُمۡ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰۲﴾۫
And now when there has come to them a Messenger from Allah, fulfilling that which is with them, a party of the people to whom the Book was given have thrown the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if they knew it not.
2:103
وَاتَّبَعُوۡا مَا تَتۡلُوا الشَّیٰطِیۡنُ عَلٰی مُلۡکِ سُلَیۡمٰنَ ۚ وَمَا کَفَرَ سُلَیۡمٰنُ وَلٰکِنَّ الشَّیٰطِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا یُعَلِّمُوۡنَ النَّاسَ السِّحۡرَ ٭ وَمَاۤ اُنۡزِلَ عَلَی الۡمَلَکَیۡنِ بِبَابِلَ ہَارُوۡتَ وَمَارُوۡتَ ؕ وَمَا یُعَلِّمٰنِ مِنۡ اَحَدٍ حَتّٰی یَقُوۡلَاۤ اِنَّمَا نَحۡنُ فِتۡنَۃٌ فَلَا تَکۡفُرۡ ؕ فَیَتَعَلَّمُوۡنَ مِنۡہُمَا مَا یُفَرِّقُوۡنَ بِہٖ بَیۡنَ الۡمَرۡءِ وَزَوۡجِہٖ ؕ وَمَا ہُمۡ بِضَآرِّیۡنَ بِہٖ مِنۡ اَحَدٍ اِلَّا بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ ؕ وَیَتَعَلَّمُوۡنَ مَا یَضُرُّہُمۡ وَلَا یَنۡفَعُہُمۡ ؕ وَلَقَدۡ عَلِمُوۡا لَمَنِ اشۡتَرٰٮہُ مَا لَہٗ فِی الۡاٰخِرَۃِ مِنۡ خَلَاقٍ ۟ؕ وَلَبِئۡسَ مَا شَرَوۡا بِہٖۤ اَنۡفُسَہُمۡ ؕ لَوۡ کَانُوۡا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰۳﴾
And they pursue the course which the rebellious men followed during the reign of Solomon. And Solomon did not disbelieve; but it was the rebellious ones who disbelieved, teaching people falsehood and deception. And they pursue what was revealed to the two angels in Babylon, Harut and Marut. But these two taught no one until they had said: ‘We are but a trial, do not therefore disbelieve.’ So men learnt from them that by which they made a difference between a man and his wife, but they harmed no one thereby, except by the command of Allah; on the contrary, these people are learning that which would harm them and do them no good. And they have certainly known that he who trafficks therein has no share of good in the Hereafter; and surely, evil is that for which they have sold their souls; had they but known!
2:104
وَلَوۡ اَنَّہُمۡ اٰمَنُوۡا وَاتَّقَوۡا لَمَثُوۡبَۃٌ مِّنۡ عِنۡدِ اللّٰہِ خَیۡرٌ ؕ لَوۡ کَانُوۡا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰۴﴾٪
And if they had believed and acted righteously, better surely would have been the reward from Allah, had they but known!
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
I quoted :

1. the text of the verse in original Arabic(as this is the language in which it is said to be revealed by G-d on the heart of Muhammad),
2. highlighted it in magenta, and gave its translation rendered by Sher Ali, one of many translations at IslamAwakened.
3. This is because the translations, as is evident, are not considered Quran/Word of G-d, these are rendered by humans and if they make a mistake then we can go for deep understanding into the Arabic original, which should not be difficult for one since one, as I appreciated and it makes me happy, has studied Quran for twenty years.
4. I referenced the website at the end, one could give from whatever website one likes.

Now, one can very happily substantiate one's point of view whatever it is, please. Right?
The verse colored in magenta , which is under discussion, is in central position, the preceding 5 verse and five following verses have been given for the context in our demonstration. Right?

Regards

 

[KWED]

This is because the translations, as is evident, are not considered Quran/Word of G-d, these are rendered by humans and if they make a mistake then we can go for deep understanding into the Arabic original, which should not be difficult for one since one, as I appreciated and it makes me happy, has studied Quran for twenty years.

As the outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree - why would he allow an inaccurate translation to be made?

In fact, if the Quran can only be understood in Classical Arabic, by native Classical Arabic speakers, who have also studied extensively under other such people, then the Quran is not fit for purpose as Allah's final, perfect guide for all humanity.
And if the Quran is not perfect, then it is not from god.
QED.

 

[England my lionheart]

As the outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree - why would he allow an inaccurate translation to be made?

In fact, if the Quran can only be understood in Classical Arabic, by native Classical Arabic speakers, who have also studied extensively under other such people, then the Quran is not fit for purpose as Allah's final, perfect guide for all humanity.
And if the Quran is not perfect, then it is not from god.
QED.

A book that apparently is a clear message to humanity that nobody can understand even if you can read classical Arabic,what a conundrum.

 

[Sheldon]

I have often wondered why, if as so many Muslims claim, the Quran is the perfect word of a perfect deity, why so many Muslims expend so much energy, and even violence, supressing all critical objections by mere evolved apes?

It seems "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

 

[stevecanuck]

To demonstrate as to what I mean here, I will give Verse 2:98 as a central verse and give some verses preceding

I'm already did this and more in post #1039. Are you going to specifically address that or not?

Good bye until you do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm already did this and more in post #1039..

The verses refer to non-religious Jews, and not those who acknowledge truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have often wondered why, if as so many Muslims claim, the Quran is the perfect word of a perfect deity, why so many Muslims expend so much energy, and even violence, supressing all critical objections by mere evolved apes?

It seems "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

Is one among the evolved ones, may I ask , please?
Right?

Regards