My first post

[stevecanuck]

... your conscious MIND might be taught that the Quran is a book of peaceful messages....

I think that statement gives the Qur'an far too much credit in terms of obviously promoting peace. In fact, Muslims are told to hate/mistrust unbelievers in an open and obvious manner. The order to kill is issued literally dozens of times.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav Hello, and I hope you’re well.
And concerning the fitrah, there is evidence for it, as the neurologist and evolutionary biologists can attest to. Even psychologists have done studies about the belief in the supernatural in children.
The fact that you don’t believe in God but waste your time on these forums is also evidence that you are subconsciously searching for something.

Where does this Maya come from?

Thank you. I am in good mood and health, and hope the same for you.
Would you grow up or remain a child forever?
Pot calling a pan black! You are doing the same.

MAYA:
(Hovering over the link will tell you what I am talking about)
- The stuff of the universe (the plasma, Brahman in Hinduism) had intense heat and pressure.
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 10*-43 seconds
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 10*−36 seconds
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 10*−32 seconds
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Before 10*−32 seconds
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia.
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 10*-12 seconds
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia: Anywhere between 10*−22 and 10*−15 seconds after the Big Bang, until 10*−12 seconds after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Between 10*−12 seconds and 10*−5 seconds after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Around 1 second after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. May have occurred within about 1 second after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Between 1 second and 10 seconds after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Between 10 seconds and 370,000 years after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. Between 2 minutes and 20 minutes after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 47,000 years after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. About 370,000 years after the Big Bang
- Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia. 370 thousand to about 1 billion years after the Big Bang

So, now the universe is in place. The Universe is expanding. Our Milky Way galaxy formed around 11 billion years ago. Sun formed about 4.6 billion years ago (apparently took more time to cool down). Earth formed about 4.8 billion years ago. Life appeared on earth about 4 billion years ago. Brain evolved about 700 million years ago. What we observe is an image formed by brain from the input of our limited senses.
That is 'Maya'.
It is more than what seems to exists. Our senses do not register the forces of interaction, radiations beyond the range of our senses. They do not register atoms and molecules. We do not see the play of energy, the play of atoms and molecules in the happenings around us. We only get the image that is relevant to us. That is what evolution did, made us fit into the environment. The reality is different. When we analyze our observation and the inputs by science, then we can realize the reality. If we do not take all that trouble, it is much more convenient to brush all that under the carpet and say:
"God made the universe in six days and rested on the seventh. God made the first human from the dust of the ground, and created women from his rib."

May you be blessed with Wisdom.
(Post concluded)

 

[stevecanuck]

[FONT=Verdana]“YOU accused me of partially quoting a verse. I explained that it only looks worse for Islam by examining the whole verse. You ignored that explanation.”[/FONT]

I believe the verse we were talking about was 2:98 and you just quoted “Allah is the enemy towards the disbelievers” making it seem like Allah took this position first, while the first part of the ayah you conveniently and unjustly neglected clearly states that those who do it first. The first word in that ayah is conditional.

[COLOR=#000000]How many times are you going to miss the point? Here it is in detail:

1. I quoted the part of 2:98 that I considered relevant.
2. You said I was being manipulative for not quoting the whole verse.
3. I then gave the whole verse and discussed all of it (you disagreed with my assessment, [B][U]BUT[/U][/B], that's not the point).

Here is the point:

When YOU quoted 5:33, YOU ONLY QUOTED THE PART OF IT THAT YOU CONSIDERED RELEVANT.

Do you get that I'm saying you are being hypocritical? Do you get WHY I'm saying you are being hypocritical?[/COLOR]

 

[stevecanuck]

@stevecanuck

“Do you realize that you're telling the entire country of Pakistan that they're practising Islam incorrectly?”

I’m 100% sure that the entire country wasn't advocating her death. The media might make you think that way, but what I also do know for sure is that there isn’t a single country in the world that follows sharia law perfectly. Rather they pick and choose what suits them and then claim it to be sharia. Pakistan included.

A plurality of the electorate AND the Prime Minister approve of the death penalty for "insulting Islam".

That alone should tell people all they need to know about the religion of peace and tolerance.

“Who are we to look to at for the truth - you, or millions of Pakistanis?”

Neither. The Quran and the Sunnah are how we find the truth in this regard. And there is nothing that tells us to kill the person that simply doesn’t believe.

Verse 9:29 says exactly that. It begins, "Fight those who believe not in Allah".

How much more clear does it have to be?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Verse 9:29 says exactly that. It begins, "Fight those who believe not in Allah".

Excellent advice from Allah. Kill and get killed. Never let there be peace.

 

[joelr]

Hello, and I hope you're well. I honestly thought you were a Christian for some reason lol.

Well, there's no point in talking about what God said or did if you don't believe in one, to begin with.

Care to state your current position so at least I know who I'm chatting with

I don't "not believe" in God I follow what evidence presents. There is no good evidence for any Gods.

 

[stevecanuck]

@stevecanuck

... As the Quran says in 4:140 and on top of that, we Muslims need to be tolerant and not go down to the level where we insult other ideologies or religions so that others out of their ignorance insult God.

That is not what verse 4:140 says. It neither states nor implies that Muslims should not "insult other religions". Rather it says not to enter into discussions with unbelievers lest you should become like them. Read it again:

Yusuf Ali: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell.

If fact, aren't you openly disobeying that verse by engaging us in this forum? Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm.

 

[paarsurrey]

That is not what verse 4:140 says. It neither states nor implies that Muslims should not "insult other religions". Rather it says not to enter into discussions with unbelievers lest you should become like them. Read it again:

Yusuf Ali: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell.

If fact, aren't you openly disobeying that verse by engaging us in this forum? Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm.

The best way to understand a specific verse of Quran is from the verses in the context, that is some verses preceding and some verses following. Right?
Will one like to do it to understand Quran verse 4:140, please. Right?
If yes, they please quote 5 verses preceding and 5 verses following for a meaningful discussion by the friends here on RF, please. Right?

Regards

 

[stevecanuck]

The best way to understand a specific verse of Quran is from the verses in the context, that is some verses preceding and some verses following. Right?
Will one like to do it to understand Quran verse 4:140, please. Right?
If yes, they please quote 5 verses preceding and 5 verses following for a meaningful discussion by the friends here on RF, please. Right?

Regards

I do that whenever it would make a difference. However, much of the Qur'an can be read as stand-alone verses, or even parts of verses.

 

[Muffled]

Then why aren't you a Muslim? Islam (via the Qur'an) tells you a few times that God does not have a son. It tells you Jesus is merely a prophet and that he did not die on the cross.



It certainly does. After about 22 years of evolution, the Qur'an settles on a position described by verse 9:111

"Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed".

I believe I am a Christian because it saves me from sin which makes me eligible for eternal life. Islam can't do that for me.

I believe It almost says that. I believe it says God does not have sons. I believe that means He makes it a policy not to procreate. In fact Jesus did not have children nor did he marry.

I believe It almost says that. It actually says Jesus is a prophet. The "merely" is not in the text. It s true Jesus did prophesy.

I believe it says that He appeared to die. In fact He did not; He left and the body died. The result is the same.

I believe that qualifies as a special case but the majority of Muslims will never do that despite some claiming that they are.

For instance the 911 terrorists were not fighting for God but in reality for the devil.

 

[Muffled]

The Pauline Christians don't have anything in writing from Jesus, hence the difference and their confusion. Right, please?

Regards

I believe the whole Bible is writing from God who is in Jesus.

 

[danieldemol]

@danieldemol

Hello, and I hope you're well.

“Where in the Quran does it say that a Muslim may feed a needy person or make up the days at a later period due to inability to distinguish those periods.”

2:183 and 184 give the conditions of one not being able to fast on particular days, they can do other things to compensate for it. There’s no reason to reject the idea that fasting over a certain amount of hours can’t be harmful, this is why scholars allow those in such countries to fast at different timings. People shouldn’t be overburdened by their religion. It is a way to ease our lives and not to make it difficult as the Quran states. 2:185

Hello and hope you are also well.

Let us examine 2:183 to 185 inclusive to see what it actually says. I will try to underline the relevant bits

"(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free will it is better for him and it is better for you that ye fast if ye only knew.

185
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting but if anyone is ill or on a journey the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful." Yusuf Ali translation.

So the alleged revelation allows for those who are ill or on a journey to make up the days later.

But it does not say anything about being unable to distinguish the signs or more to the point where you can distinguish the signs but they are too far apart.

As for "He does not want to put you to difficulties" that is saying essentially that if you follow the (allegedly) revealed law it won't be difficult.

To use that as a convenient catch all to allow innovation in matters of religion is to turn Islam into doublespeak. One could ignore any law allegedly revealed by God on the basis that it is too hard. For example is it too hard to pray 5 times a day because you are a busy person, no problem dont pray, or pray once a day etc.

I'm sure you could imagine all sorts of innovation in religion that could be raised under such a convenient catch all phrase allowing you to ignore that which is allegedly revealed if you tried hard enough.

In my opinion.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hello and hope you are also well.

Let us examine 2:183 to 185 inclusive to see what it actually says. I will try to underline the relevant bits

"(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free will it is better for him and it is better for you that ye fast if ye only knew.

185
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting but if anyone is ill or on a journey the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful." Yusuf Ali translation.

So the alleged revelation allows for those who are ill or on a journey to make up the days later.

But it does not say anything about being unable to distinguish the signs or more to the point where you can distinguish the signs but they are too far apart.

As for "He does not want to put you to difficulties" that is saying essentially that if you follow the (allegedly) revealed law it won't be difficult.

To use that as a convenient catch all to allow innovation in matters of religion is to turn Islam into doublespeak. One could ignore any law allegedly revealed by God on the basis that it is too hard. For example is it too hard to pray 5 times a day because you are a busy person, no problem dont pray, or pray once a day etc.

I'm sure you could imagine all sorts of innovation in religion that could be raised under such a convenient catch all phrase allowing you to ignore that which is allegedly revealed if you tried hard enough.

In my opinion.

I agree with our friend @danieldemol here (colored by me in magenta).

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe the whole Bible is writing from God who is in Jesus.

One's "believe"+ing is incorrect as Jesus left nothing in writing that has reached us, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

stevecanuck said: ↑
Then why aren't you a Muslim? Islam (via the Qur'an) tells you a few times that God does not have a son. It tells you Jesus is merely a prophet and that he did not die on the cross.

I believe I am a Christian because it saves me from sin which makes me eligible for eternal life. Islam can't do that for me.

I believe It almost says that. I believe it says God does not have sons. I believe that means He makes it a policy not to procreate. In fact Jesus did not have children nor did he marry.

I believe It almost says that. It actually says Jesus is a prophet. The "merely" is not in the text. It s true Jesus did prophesy.

I believe it says that He appeared to die. In fact He did not; He left and the body died. The result is the same.

I believe that qualifies as a special case but the majority of Muslims will never do that despite some claiming that they are.

For instance the 911 terrorists were not fighting for God but in reality for the devil.

Jesus was born of Mary, and Mary was not a wife of any god, was she @Muffled , please?
Right?
Anybody please

Regards

 

[Sheldon]

We can even convince ourselves of something, when deep down, we know it to be false.

I think the irony meter just exploded.

I am a believer. You will not convince me...

Do you have that laminated on a card, or maybe written on a t shirt? I have to say it seems very apropos.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't pretend.
Citing atrocities of mankind prove nothing, regardless of their religious persuasion.

At the very least it demonstrates that religious beliefs are no barrier to committing atrocities. Thus the oft used theistic argument for moral ascendancy for their beliefs is dubious, at best.

I don't claim that believers are perfect and don't get angry and seek revenge etc.

They have done far worse than that, clearly.

However, we are taught not to.

Who is we? Not all theists are taught this clearly, not all Muslims either.

 

[paarsurrey]

At the very least it demonstrates that religious beliefs are no barrier to committing atrocities. Thus the oft used theistic argument for moral ascendancy for their beliefs is dubious, at best.

They have done far worse than that, clearly.

Who is we? Not all theists are taught this clearly, not all Muslims either.

So, what is one's methodology to find truth in things not physical or material, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I do that whenever it would make a difference. However, much of the Qur'an can be read as stand-alone verses, or even parts of verses.

Examples, please.

Regards

 

[stevecanuck]

Examples, please.

Regards

9:111 is a good example - "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Every verse in the Qur'an has context. Allah had a reason for each verse being revealed when it was. However, that does not change what the verse says. Above, Allah is saying he will grant heaven to those who fight, kill, and die "fee sabil Allah". That's a context-independent statement of policy. Pure and simple.