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My first post

Come2thelight

Active Member
@TransmutingSoul

Hey Tony, I hope you’re well.

Thank you for your exegesis of surah 2:2-5. Since those categories are the true path to submission to Allah as you claimed, then what has compelled you to go against these verses and believe in something after Muhammad, when there is no mention of this characteristic in those ayahs?

Concerning your question, from my limited knowledge, when you say established, what do you mean exactly? Because from what I know, he was imprisoned there and after the sultan died, he moved to Mazra’ih. So you can call it fate no doubt. Because if it wasn’t for his brother, his imprisonment wouldn’t have happened, some would say.

But again, excuse my ignorance, you’ll have to let me know what you mean by established, and also why you think it being established in Israel makes it more glorious.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@stevecanuck

Hello, I hope you’re well and had a great weekend.

“Ayah 9:111“

For starters, is there anything in this verse that talks about forgiveness? If you see my comment, I was specifically talking about forgiveness and this ayah doesn’t answer that explicitly as you have failed to demonstrate.

Concerning Banu Quriza, according to this hadith, this breaking of the treaty wasn’t the first time they did something ill against the new Muslims in Madinah. Sahih al-Bukhari 4028 - Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi) - كتاب المغازى - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

“YOU accused me of partially quoting a verse. I explained that it only looks worse for Islam by examining the whole verse. You ignored that explanation.”

I believe the verse we were talking about was 2:98 and you just quoted “Allah is the enemy towards the disbelievers” making it seem like Allah took this position first, while the first part of the ayah you conveniently and unjustly neglected clearly states that those who do it first. The first word in that ayah is conditional.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Concerning 5:33, I don’t recall misquoting it, and I honestly can’t be bothered to go back and look through all the previous messages. (Not the friendliest platform). So if I did, (which is uncharacteristic of me) I apologize for the mistake and yes it would be hypocritical of me.

“You're ignoring the fact that 'fasad' was equated to making war in 5:32 and 5:33.”

What do you mean by equated to making war?

Concerning the Chinese government, I agree they will, but when have the Muslims ever threatened their government?


“Do you realize that you're telling the entire country of Pakistan that they're practising Islam incorrectly?”

I’m 100% sure that the entire country wasn't advocating her death. The media might make you think that way, but what I also do know for sure is that there isn’t a single country in the world that follows sharia law perfectly. Rather they pick and choose what suits them and then claim it to be sharia. Pakistan included.

“ Who are we to look to at for the truth - you, or millions of Pakistanis?”

Neither. The Quran and the Sunnah are how we find the truth in this regard. And there is nothing that tells us to kill the person that simply doesn’t believe. Or even for the one that makes disrespectful remarks towards God and the Prophets. As the Quran says in 4:140 and on top of that, we Muslims need to be tolerant and not go down to the level where we insult other ideologies or religions so that others out of their ignorance insult God. As the Quran clearly states in 6:108.

You want to make Islam look like it’s evil, but it's not. Rather the Muslim body is ignorant. So lost that they are having an identity crisis. They don’t know what Islam is nor do they know what Islam teaches. This is the truth of the situation. The reason for this is because the average folk doesn’t want to put in the work and read. Which is a common theme worldwide. People don’t care to do their research and just like to accept anything like sheep.

Concerning 33:39, The kafir’s genuine denial will only make them more odious to their Lord, meaning the more they disbelieve the more they’ll be repulsive towards God as time goes on. The word used here that’s translated into hate is ‘maqtan’ which comes from the root word “maqt” which means ‘something so despicable that people avoid mentioning it.”

I need to clarify though that when I say ‘hate’ is not befitting for God, I mean it. Our belief is that God can’t change, and when God says in the Quran that “God dislikes this action” it shouldn’t be taken literally. It should be taken in the sense that this action is so bad that even God “would” find it repugnant. A person that is insignificant as the human being compared to the Creator, couldn’t have an effect on the Creator to move Allah to ‘hate’. This is not logical.

So under this premise, if you want to have this ayah mean what you are saying then it can work only when you consider the true meaning of the word being used 'maqtan'. So it would be; Allah tells us that those who have actively hidden the truth and denied it, their constant denial will result in them not even being a thing worth mentioning. As Allah also tells us in the Quran that on the Day of Judgment, God won't even talk to certain people. (2:174)

Concerning 65:4. Just because he understood it that way, that doesn’t mean he held the view that Muslims can have sex with children. There's no proof of this. If you really want to show this, all you have to do is find me a contemporary accredited scholar that says this, but I know you won't because Islam doesn’t teach this. Mental and physical maturity needs to be put into consideration. Plus, the families need to give consent to such a marriage. If there’s a father that will agree to their pubescent daughter being married to a grown man, then maybe she needs to be taken away from him and his twisted mind.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@icehorse

Hello, and I hope you’re well.

“Are you starting to see what I mean by the MIND / BRAIN tension?”

Honestly, not really. My educated guess would be that the subliminal message/repetition within the text subconsciously makes the reader start to formulate a concept of “others” within their minds and thus could result in apathy or in the extreme case, animosity. Would this be correct?
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
Hey, @Policy Congratulations! I hope you find it to be a great haven and may you build wonderful memories in the years to come :D

When you say, the universe was a singularity or when I say came from a singularity what’s the difference? Both statements show that the universe had a starting point. The properties of the singularity don’t match the properties of the universe that’s why we give them two different terms.

You saying “the universe was a singularity that underwent an expansion event” is kind of similar to one saying “the chicken was an egg that hatched and the chicken grew over time.” I know there’s a difference between the two of course, but the point stands. The singularity had different properties than the universe.

What are your thoughts?
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@Aupmanyav

Hello, and I hope you’re well.

Where does this Maya come from?

And concerning the fitrah, there is evidence for it, as the neurologist and evolutionary biologists can attest to. Even psychologists have done studies about the belief in the supernatural in children.

The fact that you don’t believe in God but waste your time on these forums is also evidence that you are subconsciously searching for something.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
The Acts road to Damascus is just one story (definitely fiction).

Hello, and I hope you're well. I honestly thought you were a Christian for some reason lol.

Well, there's no point in talking about what God said or did if you don't believe in one, to begin with.

Care to state your current position so at least I know who I'm chatting with :)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Hello, and I hope you're well. I honestly thought you were a Christian for some reason lol.

Well, there's no point in talking about what God said or did if you don't believe in one, to begin with.

Care to state your current position so at least I know who I'm chatting with :)

You dont get it that " gods" are just characters
in books, to discuss them in any other terms
is what is pointless.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
You dont get it that " gods" are just characters
in books, to discuss them in any other terms
is what is pointless.

Hey @Audie, I hope you're well.

For you, the source of our existence might be belittled to a character in a book, but for those that do actually believe in such a reality, find it way more than that. Can you empathize with that position?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
New Hey, @Policy Congratulations! I hope you find it to be a great haven and may you build wonderful memories in the years to come :D
Thanks!
When you say, the universe was a singularity or when I say came from a singularity what’s the difference? Both statements show that the universe had a starting point. The properties of the singularity don’t match the properties of the universe that’s why we give them two different terms.

The difference is between a singularity being the state of the universe at a given point. And the universe budding from something else that already exists. This is a vast oversimplification, but think of it like a state change. Like ice suddenly expanding into steam. The properties of the ice/ singularity are different from the properties of the steam/universe.

Actually, that might not be too far off. It's been a long time since physics 351, but I believe that degeneracy and singularity are considered to be states of matter. I'm not positive on the second.

The Big bang does not address whether or not the universe had the beginning. The big bang addresses the fact that our current state of the universe started from a singularity. This does not indicate that the singularity was the beginning of the matter , energy, fields and forces of the universe. It's just as far back as we have reliable data.

To make another facile analogy: if you go into your kid's classroom and pull out the red Play-Doh. It's a ball. You can make a snake from it. You have enough information to know that all the things that happened from the time it was a ball to the time it was a snake occurred. You don't know if It was a brooch or a plane or a pterodactyl before. It was a ball. You don't know what it was at the beginning. You only know what it was at a beginning.

I think that this addresses the part of your post that didn't quote as well. If you think I missed something important, let me know.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@Policy
Thanks for your comment.

So can we call a piece of ice, steam? Once that change of state occurs, we can say that it has now become steam. Why can't this be the same for the universe?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
@Policy
Thanks for your comment.

So can we call a piece of ice, steam? Once that change of state occurs, we can say that it has now become steam. Why can't this be the same for the universe?
I'm not sure that I am tracking exactly what you mean.bWhat I'm saying is that water can have multiple states. It is seven or eight if I remember correctly, but the three most common are ice, liquid water, and steam. But they're all still water. The universe, whether in the form of a singularity or as we see it today is still the universe.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Hey @Audie, I hope you're well.

For you, the source of our existence might be belittled to a character in a book, but for those that do actually believe in such a reality, find it way more than that. Can you empathize with that position?

I know people believe in all sorts of things.

Sympathize is the word. Feel sorry for.
But only to a point.
Ive little respect for studied self deception.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
@TransmutingSoul

Hey Tony, I hope you’re well.

Thank you for your exegesis of surah 2:2-5. Since those categories are the true path to submission to Allah as you claimed, then what has compelled you to go against these verses and believe in something after Muhammad, when there is no mention of this characteristic in those ayahs?

Concerning your question, from my limited knowledge, when you say established, what do you mean exactly? Because from what I know, he was imprisoned there and after the sultan died, he moved to Mazra’ih. So you can call it fate no doubt. Because if it wasn’t for his brother, his imprisonment wouldn’t have happened, some would say.

But again, excuse my ignorance, you’ll have to let me know what you mean by established, and also why you think it being established in Israel makes it more glorious.

I hope you are well and happy and full of joy.

Your reply, in this age of technology does not cut the honesty test for me.

You forgot to mention the Bab being put to death, then Baha'u'llah being thrown into the Síyáh-Chál (Black pit) before being dispossessed of his extensive properties and wealth and then in the exceptionally severe winter of January 1853 Baháʼu'lláh with family members were Banished and undertook a three-month journey to Baghdad, thus beginning what became exile for the rest of his life in territories of the Ottoman Empire, the final place was as prisoner in Akka, a sentence that Baha'u'llah was never acquitted of.

That you took the time to say Baha'u'llah moved to Mazra’ih, is dishonest.

I can only leave it up to you to see how that banishment fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and many, many ahadith.

If you have a genuine ignorance of this history, now is your chance to find out more. Then and only then could you understand what I have offered.

Peace be with you, Regards Tony
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@icehorse

Hello, and I hope you’re well.

“Are you starting to see what I mean by the MIND / BRAIN tension?”

Honestly, not really. My educated guess would be that the subliminal message/repetition within the text subconsciously makes the reader start to formulate a concept of “others” within their minds and thus could result in apathy or in the extreme case, animosity. Would this be correct?

That's almost correct. So when a person studies the Quran from any sort of academic or theological perspective, they're quite conscious of their studies. All of this study is happening in the conscious MIND. (BTW, this is true of almost all "studying", regardless of whether it's theology or physics or architecture, whatever.)

But - intentionally or not - the Quran was written in a way that is consistent with how propaganda is created. Propaganda works not only in a person's conscious MIND, but also in their unconscious BRAIN. So your conscious MIND might be taught that the Quran is a book of peaceful messages, but your BRAIN will be picking up the Quran's propaganda, which is almost the opposite of peaceful. So the individual has a conflict between what their conscious MIND thinks is true and what their subconscious BRAIN thinks is true.

This sort of MIND / BRAIN conflict happens frequently. Let's imagine you're in school and you're studying for a final exam in a class you must take, but that you're not interested in. In this situation, your MIND is motivated to study, but your BRAIN is not. And your BRAIN has more control of what you learn than you think it does! So again, we see this conflict. The MIND wants to learn this topic (because the ego needs to get a good grade). But the BRAIN doesn't care about getting good grades, and the academic topic to be studied is of almost no interest to the BRAIN.

So to tweak your post just a little:

The subliminal, repetitious messages in the Quran will make the reader's BRAIN formulate a negative concept of "others".
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
@stevecanuck

Hello, I hope you’re well and had a great weekend.

“Ayah 9:111“

For starters, is there anything in this verse that talks about forgiveness? If you see my comment, I was specifically talking about forgiveness and this ayah doesn’t answer that explicitly as you have failed to demonstrate.

Forgiveness is clearly implied. Allah says hundreds of times that only believing in him and obeying him will cause him to forgive a person and admit them to heaven. Those who are admitted to heaven because the fight, kill, and die for the religion of peace therefore have been forgiven their past sins. The entire Qur'an is written in terms of obedience-based action being a prerequisite for Allah's forgiveness. How is that not obvious?

Btw, PLEASE use the quote option. It makes it so much easier to respond.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
@stevecanuck

Concerning Banu Quriza, according to this hadith, this breaking of the treaty wasn’t the first time they did something ill against the new Muslims in Madinah.

Let me stop you right there. I asked you to show hadiths in which the Banu Quraiza are said to have broken the treaty during the Battle of the Trench.

You jumped right over that part. Please either show the hadiths or admit there are none.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Well, there's no point in talking about what God said or did if you don't believe in one, to begin with.

As a general statement, regardless of which religion is the topic, this is nonsense. When people take religion-inspired actions that affect others, there is very much a point in talking about said religion.
 
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