"My God! My God! Why Have You Forsaken Me!"

[Axe Elf]

It is the Hebrew word for strange belief or idolatry

Ok, so you want me to explain this strange belief or idolatry. Are you suggesting that reciting the Shema is a strange belief or idolatry? I could maybe get behind the first part, but I'm not sure how it would be idolatry--so if I can't explain that, I guess I will have to choose moving along.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Ok, so you want me to explain this strange belief or idolatry. Are you suggesting that reciting the Shema is a strange belief or idolatry? I could maybe get behind the first part, but I'm not sure how it would be idolatry--so if I can't explain that, I guess I will have to choose moving along.

I'm trying to figure why Jesus being God recited a Jewish prayer dedicated to God. So in other words you're saying Jesus prays to himself all the time as if he speaks in third person? Even as a former Christian this was always bizarre. A Jewish rabbi that came, endowed with unimaginable powers prays to God but in reality is praying to himself? This is strange either Jesus had a case of multiple personality disorder, or maybe, just maybe Pauline Christianity as it is today got it wrong.

 

[Axe Elf]

I'm trying to figure why Jesus being God recited a Jewish prayer dedicated to God. So in other words you're saying Jesus prays to himself all the time as if he speaks in third person?

Jesus was also a man, who studied and learned Jewish traditions, so he probably observed many of those traditions with a deeper understanding than the priests who were just going through the motions, so to speak.

I understand the Trinity by understanding my own triune nature, with a body (Son), mind (Father) and Spirit. My body talks to my mind all the time--telling it that I'm hungry, that I'm cold, that someone is standing on my penis, etc. And my mind talks to my body a lot too, telling it to raise my right hand, or walk forward, or type a period at the end of this sentence.

So I don't think idolatry comes into play there, either. I guess you could still call it a "strange belief" for Jesus (the Body of God) to converse with the Father (the Mind of God)--but then Jesus was a pretty unique case.

 

[wizanda]

I'm trying to figure why Jesus being God recited a Jewish prayer dedicated to God.

Because Judaism's translation was off since the Babylonian exile...

El is the Most High manifestor of reality, and Yeshua is an Elohim which is equivalent of saying an arch angel.

In my opinion.

 

[Axe Elf]

Because Judaism's translation was off since the Babylonian exile...

El is the Most High manifestor of reality, and Yeshua is an Elohim which is equivalent of saying an arch angel.

In my opinion.

Wait--you think Jesus was an arch angel [sic]?

 

[wizanda]

Wait--you think Jesus was an arch angel [sic]?

More than that, think YHVH Elohim is also that same Arch Angel, and El Elyon is the God Most High.

It is like when Yeshua just spoke to the weather for it to change, humans don't think that way inherently.

Plus in Isaiah 52:10 it says 'we will see Yeshuat Eloheinu' (Yeshua Elohim) 'appearing in the form of a son of man' (Isaiah 52:14)

In my opinion.

 

[Axe Elf]

More than that, think YHVH Elohim is also that same Arch Angel, and El Elyon is the God Most High.

It is like when Yeshua just spoke to the weather for it to change, humans don't think that way inherently.

Plus in Isaiah 52:10 it says 'we will see Yeshuat Eloheinu' (Yeshua Elohim) 'appearing in the form of a son of man' (Isaiah 52:14)

In my opinion.

Well, there goes Christianity...

 

[wizanda]

Well, there goes Christianity...

Actually Dr Margret Barker who is a Christian puts forward the same hypothesis; that Paul and Simon stated one Lord (Yeshua/YHVH Elohim), and one God (El Elyon).

Revelation has one God Almighty (El Shaddai) and one Lord of Lords (Yeshua/YHVH Elohim).

The fake Gospel of John muddies the water, as it makes Yeshua son of YHVH.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, that's a pretty radical alteration, so it can probably be safely discarded.

More than likely. At no time do I think Jesus the Christ considered that God had forsaken Him, thus these words will have deep meaning.

There is the Fire Tablet by Baha'u'llah where I see these Words of Christ reflected.

The Tablet starts and continues for some time with Baha'u'llah questioning where God is in many ways, then God answers Baha'u'llah telling him why He was given the Message, then Bahau'llah responds to this with power and confirmation.

If you would like to read it, it is here -

Fire Tablet

Regards Tony

 

[Axe Elf]

Actually Dr Margret Barker who is a Christian puts forward the same hypothesis; that Paul and Simon stated one Lord (Yeshua/YHVH Elohim), and one God (El Elyon).

Revelation has one God Almighty (El Shaddai) and one Lord of Lords (Yeshua/YHVH Elohim).

The fake Gospel of John muddies the water, as it makes Yeshua son of YHVH.

In my opinion.

Yeah, see, Christianity is kind of predicated on Jesus being the son of God, not just an angel (even a superangel). So anyone who denies that is kind of pioneering a new religion, or could maybe convert to Judaism, but they can't really call themselves a "Christian." Well, I guess they can call themselves a unicorn if they like, but no one else would acknowledge it.

 

[Axe Elf]

More than likely. At no time do I think Jesus the Christ considered that God had forsaken Him, thus these words will have deep meaning.

Well, I kind of think that He DID feel separated from God in those last moments by the sin for which He died. It makes the most sense, given the situation.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What did Jesus mean when he cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me"? Did he truly feel forsaken? If so, why? Had God really forsaken him, or was that just his perception?

The man is suffering for a purpose and refers us to Psalm 22 to make the point. Part of psalm 22 says "For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help." It talks about future generations. The individual is suffering for a purpose, for future generations. That appears to be the gospel is saying.

Possibly 1 Peter 1:12 alludes to Psalm 22 when it says "It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."

Hebrews 5:7 suggests that Jesus prays to be saved from death during his days of life on Earth but has to learn obedience through suffering. It suggests his death is teaching him a lesson. Hebrews 5:9 says the death or something that happens at time of death perfects him.

Jesus does not wish to die but submits to it for the purpose of doing good, and he explains by his quote that he is not forsaken.

 

[wizanda]

see, Christianity is kind of predicated on Jesus being the son of God, not just an angel (even a superangel).

This is the same thing being said...

Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David,

Christianity is confused as it follows Rabbinic Judaisms faults, that they've forgotten the father is El Elyon; who gave his son YHVH Elohim the nation of Israel as his people (Deuteronomy 32:7-9).

but they can't really call themselves a "Christian."

A Christian when Paul and Simon established it accepted these things; modern Christianity being confused, just proves the prophets were right, that the world will be deceived.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, see, Christianity is kind of predicated on Jesus being the son of God, not just an angel (even a superangel). So anyone who denies that is kind of pioneering a new religion, or could maybe convert to Judaism, but they can't really call themselves a "Christian." Well, I guess they can call themselves a unicorn if they like, but no one else would acknowledge it.

What matters here is, is what is of God in this matter and not what any individual or group of people may have concluded.

Thus the quandry of choice.

Regards Tony

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

What did Jesus mean when he cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me"? Did he truly feel forsaken? If so, why? Had God really forsaken him, or was that just his perception?

That was just his perception. God, if It exists, never intervenes, but Jesus was indoctrinated to believe that It does if you have enough faith. Jesus demonstrated his faith by leading a contingent of his followers to take the Temple and held it for a day, thus cleansing it of its corruption. But God was a no show, so many of his followers (including Judas and Peter), knowing what the punishment for insurrection was, turned on him. The OP quote and the cleansing of the Temple are probably the two most historical reports about Jesus in the Bible.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I kind of think that He DID feel separated from God in those last moments by the sin for which He died. It makes the most sense, given the situation.

I had discussed this some time ago in this post

Why Has thou Forsaken Me - Baha'i Forums

It appears Christ was most likely quoting Old Testament Writings, Psalm 22

Regards Tony

 

[Tumah]

"George Lamsa the Aramaic scholar translated Matthew 27:46 this way:

And in the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, eli, lmana shabachthani! which means My God, My God, for this I was kept!

In a footnote; "This was my destiny for which I was born"

So this I think suggests a different meaning than the one usually used.

Lamsa had some interesting perspectives as he was a native Aramaic speaker." (Quoted - Formally posted by Arthra)

Lamsa Bible - Lamsa Bible - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

There are a number of Aramaic dialects both today and yesteryear. The word "lmana" for instance, is found in the Syriac Pe****ta and it means "why". The Babylonian Talmud uses the word "amai" and the Jerusalem Talmud though, uses the word "lama" (from Hebrew). I think it's more likely that whoever the author was, he probably used Israeli Aramaic instead of Syrian Aramaic. I mean, unless that was a later addition.

Now, I don't know what whatever dialect of Aramaic Mr. Lambsa speaks uses for the word "keep". But in the Aramaic dialect we'd expect to see, the word for "keep" or "preserve" will come from the root n-ṭ-r. In the Jerusalem Talmud "n'ṭurei qartha - guardians (ie. preservers) of the town". In the Pe****ta, "ṭar pukdana - keep the commandments(Matt.19:17)"

It's a bit difficult to see how he would have connected n-ṭ-r to shabachthani. There is no 'ch' sound in Aramaic to my knowledge. There's h, ḥ, k, kh and q.
I don't know of any root words spelled š-b-h
The root š-b-ḥ means to "praise"
I don't know of any root words spelled š-b-k or š-b-kh.
The root word š-b-q means to "leave, foresake".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What did Jesus mean when he cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me"? Did he truly feel forsaken? If so, why? Had God really forsaken him, or was that just his perception?

The far better question would be:

Why would the author of the scene have Jesus make a reference to Psalm 22?​

For an answer, see Prooftext.

 

[Tumah]

It is the Hebrew word for strange belief or idolatry

Strange work/service.

 

[Axe Elf]

A Christian when Paul and Simon established it accepted these things; modern Christianity being confused, just proves the prophets were right, that the world will be deceived.

Yeah, no, that argument...

1) Either I am deceived, or the world is deceived.
2) The bible says that the world will be deceived.
3) Therefore, I am not deceived.

...kind of smacks of another common Xian argument that I sometimes refer to as "Xian Logic 101":

1) God said we would be persecuted for telling the truth.
2) I am persecuted.
3) Therefore, I must be telling the truth.

Neither version is very satisfying as a method of establishing truth.