My one-way ticket to hell

[NoahideHiker]

It would seem that I have been sliced, quartered and even diced, before receiving my one-way ticket to hell.

I don't know how many people in RF who have visited my website, Dark Mirrors of Heaven. It was meant to provide information about the non-canonical texts in relation to the Genesis, particularly in regarding to the Creation (which included Adam and Eve) and Enoch. Texts that I have used included the Haggada, Book of Jubilees, books of Enoch, Apocryphon of John (Gnostic), and others.

It was to provide different perspective, of the way ancient people thought of their religions, and how they change over time. It was never meant to displace the bible, and it was certainly not meant to be anti-Christian or anti-Jew or "anti-" anything. It was just mostly summaries of these legends, myths or whatever you would like to call them.

Afterall, not as many Christians in the Western world would know about Lilith, or Enoch's adventures and so forth. Not many read Gnostic texts as well. Also the bible is well known, whereas these texts are not readily available. Thus I was sharing knowledge. It wasn't mean to preach to follow these texts, and being agnostic, I have no desire to convert anyone or turn away from their respective religions.

Well, recently I got emails from one member, whom I won't name. Unless this person don't mind me showing the entire whole emails (including mine) out in the open. It doesn't bother me, one way or another if everyone else read them.

Anyway, the person's email, titled "What do I get out of it?"

Obviously it is question my motive for putting up such site. To this person, only the Bible mattered, and people becoming Christians. How I should concentrate only on the bible and my own salvation, and ignore these texts.

It would seem this person didn't like me pointing out that books such as the book of Enoch and book of Julibees were written before Jesus and his followers' time, and they were influenced by them. I have pointed out Jude's epistle alluding to prophecies from Enoch, which obvious referred to one of the books of Enoch. Also Enoch have been called "Son of Man", a popular epithet, which gospel writers have used and called Jesus.

Then the person began a long reply that I should be honest with myself and accept Jesus, becoming a Christian, as well as the consequence of not accepting Jesus - sins and hell. How I must do so with humility? Obviously he or she wants me to become a Christian.

I can understand this, about humility, but I warned the person that talk of sins, judgement and hell doesn't impress me; in fact, it disgust me. It is what I find Christianity so disgusting. I have people in the past telling me that I would go hell, if I don't convert.

Dark Ages and medieval period, priests have used fear on people to convert, and it is disgusting practice. I told the person that such method don't work with me, and if he or she don't want to talk about my website, then I have no interest in his or her letter if it meant trying to convert me.

I told the person that humility have very little to do with faith or belief. I probably should have explain further, because that only added fuel the person's fire.

Then the person lecture me that I don't have humility to be saved and so forth, and how I would go to hell. Already, the person judge that I would go to hell, and the only salvation is through Christ. Again, trying to put fear in me to convert. The tone of this reply hardly sounded humble. It's sure doesn't show compassion or understanding.

And being the person I am, I told the person that his email didn't sound humble at all. Well, here is the last reply.

His God had not yet judge me yet...if he does exist. Jesus have not judge me yet. But it doesn't matter, since the person have already judge me, and have already booked me a place in hell.

I admired Jesus' teaching of love and compassionate, but I sure don't love his Christians, especially those who are ready to judge me, without even knowing me.

If being Christian meant sharing a place in heaven with people such as these, then I'd prefer to stay out of heaven and go my own way, whichever way that may be.

It's clearly a fear of having one's beliefs challanged and is a natural knee jerk reaction.

 

[gnostic]

The humility God deems necessary to come to the cross is already an
accomplished fact in my life for I accepted Jesus as my substitute
forgiving all my sins and I have died with Him on the cross to put
away things of the flesh.

I think this contradictory statement from the person who emailed me.

(Assuming the person I have mentioned is "he", because I am getting a little tired of writing "he or she", "his or her", etc. The person's name on email could be boy or girl's name, that's why I have been identifying the person in previous posts as being either.)

Looking at the quote, in the first part, I can understand the person if he humbly accept Jesus and all his teaching, and it each individual's choice on how he follows the religion.

But the person's next part of statement (colored and bolded) show arrogance, by identifying himself with Christ, thus person is bragging of moral superiority.

I am not completely certain about Christian teaching because I am not a Christian, so correct me if I am wrong. Only God can judge each individual in the end of this physical life. So my question is that a person's conversion don't guarantee an entry into heaven? Conversion is only one step and the way a person live his life are considered after conversion, is it not?

The person seemed to think salvation is guaranteed and my own fall into hell also guaranteed.

Isn't this person judging himself and me before his God could?

Gnostic, not every Christian feels that way about you. I am a former Pagan and yes, I have heard of Lilith. I love reading ancient texts and will have to check out your website. If the e-mails persist may I suggest you referring your judgemental tormentor to his scriptures.

Matthew 7: 1,2
DO NOT judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I've always thought Jesus' statement of not judging one another have several meanings. One is having compassion and not persecuting others, ie a teaching of tolerance to one another. And the other meaning is not judging another individual's sin.

 

[gnostic]

It's clearly a fear of having one's beliefs challanged and is a natural knee jerk reaction.

Sometimes I think some of these Christians lack true faith in their own religion, so they tried to overcompensate by persistant urge to convert others and failing that to tell people they would "go to hell".

 

[kateyes]

Sometimes I think some of these Christians lack true faith in their own religion, so they tried to overcompensate by persistant urge to convert others and failing that to tell people they would "go to hell".

Sadly many of the more fundamental Christian denominations (notice I do not say faiths) teach people not to question, not to explore, its this or nothing. I think there are many who follow those denominations because its easy, they don't have to think about it--just FOLLOW. To have someone try to point out other views-upset them because you are asking them to think-when they just want to blindly follow. Its as though someone gives them a set of rules and as long as they follow the rules they are fine, but try changing the rules and it upsets thier balance (ie how many Catholics do you know who still don't eat meat on Friday--its just easier)--the problem is it has nothing to do with beliefs or faith.


Personally--I think faith IS about exploring and questioning--its about building your own relationship with Jesus and God--not just following the formula.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Like MysticSang'ha said: Tell them you've always enjoyed a good barbeque. That's what I do.

:grill:



Them hot coals will be ready everywhere for some good hickory smoked ribs, eh Nick?


Unless we're still trying to be more conscious of animal welfare even in hell. Then I guess grilled zucchini and portobello 'shrooms are a good option. LOL



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Mister_T]

:grill:



Them hot coals will be ready everywhere for some good hickory smoked ribs, eh Nick?


Unless we're still trying to be more conscious of animal welfare even in hell. Then I guess grilled zucchini and portobello 'shrooms are a good option. LOL



Peace,
Mystic

Or Tofu substitutes. I'll bring the beer. :drunk:

 

[Wandered Off]

... those that believe not are condemned already

This is such a timesaver. Imagine being able to bypass the longest line in human history (Judgment Day). Finally it makes sense how it can happen in a day.

It inspires me to start sending people pre-disapproval letters to save them the valuable time of applying for a loan.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Or Tofu substitutes. I'll bring the beer. :drunk:

Cool. We're set. Make mine a Killian's Red. :flirt:




Peace,
Mystic

 

[madcap]

You always have the option to cease communications with a person that harrasses you like that. To me, pushy evangelicals are like telemarketers. I understand it's their job to try to sell me something, but it's not my job to buy, nor is it my job to turn things around and sell them something instead. So I politely decline and hang up.

It would be silly, though, for me to get upset because the telemarketer told me I was wrong for not refinancing my house. For one thing, I don't own a house. But for another, what the hell do I care what the telemarketer thinks of my decisions? She's just trying to make a sale.

 

[kateyes]

OOOOOOO--if its on tap I'll have a Killian's as well-please.

 

[Super Universe]

People are so closed minded. They are afraid that learning something will cause harm.
They don't want others to have the ability to choose. They don't realize that free choice is God's gift to all.

Some of the books written by Jesus contemporaries contain things that are quite shocking.

Christ hasn't judged you, He's already forgiven you. Judge Christ by what you learn from Him, not from others, but from the words that He left behind, His parables and stories, and His deeds.

If forgiving others is something you will try to adopt then I would say that you are already a Christian or at least you are already the best thing about being a Christian.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And then there's always that verse from Matthew where Jesus warns about judging others. But some how the fundamentalists always manage to overlook that one.

That's a non sequitor to my comment but take the whole verse which says that judge not lest you be judged in like manner. The Bible sets forth standards for Biblical judgement.

 

[Mister_T]

That's a non sequitor to my comment but take the whole verse which says that judge not lest you be judged in like manner. The Bible sets forth standards for Biblical judgement.

I'm not aware of any verses that support human judgment of any kind. Jesus is quite clear on his stance about judging others and dictating to them.

Mattew 7: 1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers" Translation: Unless you're perfect, zip it.

Here's another.

Matthew 23; 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel


Enjoy.

 

[athanasius]

It would seem that I have been sliced, quartered and even diced, before receiving my one-way ticket to hell.

I don't know how many people in RF who have visited my website, Dark Mirrors of Heaven. It was meant to provide information about the non-canonical texts in relation to the Genesis, particularly in regarding to the Creation (which included Adam and Eve) and Enoch. Texts that I have used included the Haggada, Book of Jubilees, books of Enoch, Apocryphon of John (Gnostic), and others.

It was to provide different perspective, of the way ancient people thought of their religions, and how they change over time. It was never meant to displace the bible, and it was certainly not meant to be anti-Christian or anti-Jew or "anti-" anything. It was just mostly summaries of these legends, myths or whatever you would like to call them.

Afterall, not as many Christians in the Western world would know about Lilith, or Enoch's adventures and so forth. Not many read Gnostic texts as well. Also the bible is well known, whereas these texts are not readily available. Thus I was sharing knowledge. It wasn't mean to preach to follow these texts, and being agnostic, I have no desire to convert anyone or turn away from their respective religions.

Well, recently I got emails from one member, whom I won't name. Unless this person don't mind me showing the entire whole emails (including mine) out in the open. It doesn't bother me, one way or another if everyone else read them.

Anyway, the person's email, titled "What do I get out of it?"

Obviously it is question my motive for putting up such site. To this person, only the Bible mattered, and people becoming Christians. How I should concentrate only on the bible and my own salvation, and ignore these texts.

It would seem this person didn't like me pointing out that books such as the book of Enoch and book of Julibees were written before Jesus and his followers' time, and they were influenced by them. I have pointed out Jude's epistle alluding to prophecies from Enoch, which obvious referred to one of the books of Enoch. Also Enoch have been called "Son of Man", a popular epithet, which gospel writers have used and called Jesus.

Then the person began a long reply that I should be honest with myself and accept Jesus, becoming a Christian, as well as the consequence of not accepting Jesus - sins and hell. How I must do so with humility? Obviously he or she wants me to become a Christian.

I can understand this, about humility, but I warned the person that talk of sins, judgement and hell doesn't impress me; in fact, it disgust me. It is what I find Christianity so disgusting. I have people in the past telling me that I would go hell, if I don't convert.

Dark Ages and medieval period, priests have used fear on people to convert, and it is disgusting practice. I told the person that such method don't work with me, and if he or she don't want to talk about my website, then I have no interest in his or her letter if it meant trying to convert me.

I told the person that humility have very little to do with faith or belief. I probably should have explain further, because that only added fuel the person's fire.

Then the person lecture me that I don't have humility to be saved and so forth, and how I would go to hell. Already, the person judge that I would go to hell, and the only salvation is through Christ. Again, trying to put fear in me to convert. The tone of this reply hardly sounded humble. It's sure doesn't show compassion or understanding.

And being the person I am, I told the person that his email didn't sound humble at all. Well, here is the last reply.

His God had not yet judge me yet...if he does exist. Jesus have not judge me yet. But it doesn't matter, since the person have already judge me, and have already booked me a place in hell.

I admired Jesus' teaching of love and compassionate, but I sure don't love his Christians, especially those who are ready to judge me, without even knowing me.

If being Christian meant sharing a place in heaven with people such as these, then I'd prefer to stay out of heaven and go my own way, whichever way that may be.

Hmmm Maybe you'll end up doing some time in purgatory??:sad4:

 

[Quagmire]

I agree; it is far too easy to offend those who are easily offended.

Just as any faith that's so easily threatened by unfamiliar information must be a small and fragile thing to begin with.

You have the wrong word there. Pseudepigraphical merely means that the text isn't written by the person claimed as the author

True. In common usage though (at least at the level of coffeeshop intellectualism) pseudepigraphica seems to have become an acceptable term in reference to any non-canocal Judeo-christian writtings (probably because coffeeshop intellectuals and pseudo-scholars *raises hand* are fond of throwing around five syllable words whenever possible, and because it helps to distinquinish the larger body of works from the Apocryapha of the Roman Catholic vulgate and latter versions of the Septagient (sp))

- Christians accept loads of those even if they don't realise it. As for apocryphal texts (which is probably what you meant, though you may also have intended to include the Deuterocanonicals), there are plenty of Christians who have read them. I'm one. I don't agree with them all but that doesn't mean they are valueless. Of course, if you come from a Tradition such as mine which has an altogether less rigid view of just what it means for a text to be canonical (a correct view, as opposed to the later Protestant idea) and especially if you have an understanding of the history of the development of the canons (there has never been a single canon) then it does make things easier. Strict literalists, Biblical inerrantists and sola scripturalists, which are the sort of people who are most likely to be threatened by such texts are a tiny minority of Christians being, almost invariably, from a Protestant tradition.

Yes, unfortunately (here in the U.S. at least) they're an extremely outspoken and politically influencial minority.
I would dearly love to see someone come up with a designation for these people that would identify them as seperate from christians as a whole without offending any innocent bystanders (even refering to them as pentocostal or evegelical tends to include some people who probably don't deserve to be stereotyped).

Those of us who are part of one of the near 1.5 billion strong group of Christians whose churches pre-date the Reformation, don't hold to such unsustainable notions of Scripture.

James

I truly admire anyone who can be devote about their religion while being objective about it's origins. I think this is a much more powerful demonstration of faith than the blind acceptance of unexamined dogma.

 

[gnostic]

Scripture says in John Chapter three that those who believe are not condemned but those that believe not are condemned already because they have believed in the name of the only begotton son of God.

If you're talking about John 3:18-21, then Jesus and your Christian god have already condemned over 3 billions non-Christian souls today to hell. Then that sounds like a very loving and just god.

The person had already quoted me these verses. Did Jesus say this? Or was it the writer, "John" who wrote this in?

Who needs Satan if God and Jesus can far crueler than Satan ever could be?

I must pack my bags, and I will need to wear my Hawaiian shirt and shorts, and bring some bags full of marshmellows for roasting. :grill:

 

[gnostic]

True. In common usage though (at least at the level of coffeeshop intellectualism) pseudepigraphica seems to have become an acceptable term in reference to any non-canocal Judeo-christian writtings (probably because coffeeshop intellectuals and pseudo-scholars *raises hand* are fond of throwing around five syllable words whenever possible, and because it helps to distinquinish the larger body of works from the Apocryapha of the Roman Catholic vulgate and later versions of the Septagient (sp))

I thought the Septuagint was older than the Vulgate by at least 4 centuries.

 

[Quagmire]

I thought the Septuagint was older than the Vulgate by at least 4 centuries.

Sorry, spelling error. I was trying to say latter versions of the septuagint as opposed to earlier versions.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

...Then that sounds like a very loving and just god.

Therein lies your mistake; attributing to the God of the Bible only one attribute.

 

[lilithu]

I am a former Pagan and yes, I have heard of Lilith.

*ears perk up* Did someone call me?


Cool site Gnostic. Thanks for sharing it with us.