My problem with Muslims from personal experience

[Looncall]

Fine; I condemn the 2002 Gujarat riots and 1984 Hindu-Sikh riots. They were politically motivated, not religious because Hindu scriptures don't say to kill Muslims and Sikhs.

I'll repeat myself AGAIN: the majority of Muslims blame 9/11 and ISIS on the Mossad.

Huh. Standard Muslim anti-jewish bigotry. Taught in Muslim schools, I hear.

By the way, Muslim scriptures do say to kill non-muslims.

 

[Lyndon]

Jewish scriptures say to kill non Jews

 

[loverofhumanity]

Huh. Standard Muslim anti-jewish bigotry. Taught in Muslim schools, I hear.

By the way, Muslim scriptures do say to kill non-muslims.

Do they really? Muslims are only allowed self defense in the Quran which is the only authoritative Word of God for all Muslims.

According to the Quran Muslims are forbidden to attack first.

2: 190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.

George Sale

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

J M Rodwell

2:190 Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.

N J Dawood

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Marmaduke Pickthall

2:190 AND FIGHT in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression –for, verily, God does not love aggressors.


Muhammad Assad

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.


Rashad Khalifa


The Quran forbids premeditated murder

 

[Shad]

90% of your terrorist act were by ISIS or Al Qaeda, The majority of Muslims most certainly denounce them. Are you going to link American white terrorist attacks, like mass shootings, to all Christians, that's just total BS, something you seem to like to deal in.

Your racial thinking is showing. White isn't a religion nor does it contain anything that promote radicalism. Christianity isn't a white only religion. Islam isn't a non-white religion (racial exclusions). Muslim isn't a race.

 

[icehorse]

Jewish scriptures say to kill non Jews

Why do we hear this "two wrongs make it right" argument over and over again?

 

[icehorse]

Do they really? Muslims are only allowed self defense in the Quran which is the only authoritative Word of God for all Muslims.

According to the Quran Muslims are forbidden to attack first.

These are half-truths. First, Islam's definition of what constitutes an act of defense is different most non-Muslims would expect, so there's that HUGE semantic problem.

Second, the Quran attacks non-Muslims over 500 times. Listing a few examples doesn't prove anything.

 

[Firemorphic]

First, Islam's definition of what constitutes an act of defense is different most non-Muslims would expect

Elaborate.

Second, the Quran attacks non-Muslims over 500 times.

Define "non-Muslims"

 

[loverofhumanity]

These are half-truths. First, Islam's definition of what constitutes an act of defense is different most non-Muslims would expect, so there's that HUGE semantic problem.

Second, the Quran attacks non-Muslims over 500 times. Listing a few examples doesn't prove anything.

The definition in the Quran of when a battle can take place is clearly defined in Sura 2:190 - only if attacked first.

There was a war going on so Muslims rightly defended themselves against their enemies and oppressors whether it was one or 500 times but the Quran only permitted warfare against aggressors or traitors secretly working with the enemy.

However Christians and Jews who did not attack Muslims were never harmed.

 

[Looncall]

The definition in the Quran of when a battle can take place is clearly defined in Sura 2:190 - only if attacked first.

There was a war going on so Muslims rightly defended themselves against their enemies and oppressors whether it was one or 500 times but the Quran only permitted warfare against aggressors or traitors secretly working with the enemy.

However Christians and Jews who did not attack Muslims were never harmed.

Tell that to the untold thousands taken as slaves by Muslims.

 

[icehorse]

The definition in the Quran of when a battle can take place is clearly defined in Sura 2:190 - only if attacked first.

There was a war going on so Muslims rightly defended themselves against their enemies and oppressors whether it was one or 500 times but the Quran only permitted warfare against aggressors or traitors secretly working with the enemy.

However Christians and Jews who did not attack Muslims were never harmed.

By citing a single Sura, your implication is that the Quran is consistent with it's own messages throughout. It's not.

 

[Vinayaka]

Even if we totally forgot about all the historical histories, and only looked at current wars, it's pretty self-evident which religion is prominent where most of it is going on.

List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

By citing a single Sura, your implication is that the Quran is consistent with it's own messages throughout. It's not.

What I find amazing about this (not just here but in lots of arguments) is the idea that the reader won't figure it out. To hand pick one quote, or one incident to support your argument is one thing. But to think that you're going to fool anyone by doing it is another. Most people just aren't anywhere near that stupid.

 

[Lyndon]

Even if we totally forgot about all the historical histories, and only looked at current wars, it's pretty self-evident which religion is prominent where most of it is going on.

List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

And in how many of those armed conflicts does America have a pivotal part, either supplying weapons or actual fighters???

 

[Vinayaka]

And in how many of those armed conflicts does America have a pivotal part, either supplying weapons or actual fighters???

I'm not sure, are you? Certainly there is money to be made selling arms. Canada is in that trade too. It's always more complicated than we see, or by how it's portrayed. But back to the OP, I've never personally met any Muslims here in Canada that were at all aggressive or looking for a fight. I think once you get out of such circumstances, it's a great relief. Refugees who actually make it to safe haven are just so happy to have escaped.

 

[Lyndon]

I would be happy to escape America right now!!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Tell that to the untold thousands taken as slaves by Muslims.

My point is that it is not the religion which is teaching these things. Violence has been part of human history since the dawn of time.

 

[Vinayaka]

My point is that it is not the religion which is teaching these things. Violence has been part of human history since the dawn of time.

Has it? 60 000 years back, in small hunter/gatherer groups? We had a lot to learn form some of those groups. Unfortunately we've managed to kill them all off.

 

[metis]

Anthropologist Desmond Morris called us "naked apes", and indeed we pretty much are, especially sharing so much of our physique and basic behaviors with chimps.

In anthropology, we study primate behavior, and the chimp is so similar in basic emotions to us that to better understand them is to better understand us. And, yes, chimps can be quite violent at times, including even killing other chimps.

 

[loverofhumanity]

By citing a single Sura, your implication is that the Quran is consistent with it's own messages throughout. It's not.

Yes it is if you know the history behind the revelation of the verses.

The Quran is about the struggle for freedom of religion and belief.
The entire saga was all about the Meccans trying to prevent the spread of the belief in one God as their entire wealth and economy was based upon tributes to some 360 idols.

When Muhammad declared there was only one God at first they offered power and bribes to Him to withdraw His beliefs publicly but He refused so then they began oppressing and persecuting Muslims for over 13 years resulting in deaths and the fleeing of Muslims to Abyssinia then Mecca. Eventually Muslims were told in the Quran to defend their right to freedom of worship and belief and to fight for it if persecuted and attacked.

The entire Quran is a fight for freedom of religion. Eventually the Muslims peacefully won over Mecca. But all the battles, bloodshed and wars were all about the human right to be free to believe in one God.

 

[Vinayaka]

Anthropologist Desmond Morris called us "naked apes", and indeed we pretty much are, especially sharing so much of our physique and basic behaviors with chimps.

In anthropology, we study primate behavior, and the chimp is so similar in basic emotions to us that to better understand them is to better understand us. And, yes, chimps can be quite violent at times, including even killing other chimps.

There were at least a thousand aboriginal groups and languages in the Americas, a few thousand in Africa, another few thousand in Asia, 500 or so in Australia. You think maybe a couple may have lived in peace?