My problem with Muslims from personal experience

[Vinayaka]

the human right to be free to believe in one God.

What about the human right to believe in many Gods, or none at all? That's when that right went out the door?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Has it? 60 000 years back, in small hunter/gatherer groups? We had a lot to learn form some of those groups. Unfortunately we've managed to kill them all off.

Yes. It’s sad what has happened to the indigenous people of the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What about the human right to believe in many Gods, or none at all? That's when that right went out the door?

It was the Muslims who fled and were being persecuted not the idol worshippers or believers in other gods not the other way round. The Meccans continued hunting down the Muslims even to Abyssinia and Medina with intent to commit genocide.

They had no choice but to defend themselves under those circumstances.

 

[metis]

There were at least a thousand aboriginal groups and languages in the Americas, a few thousand in Africa, another few thousand in Asia, 500 or so in Australia. You think maybe a couple may have lived in peace?

Yes. The Mohave, for example, didn't even have a word for "war" in their language.

Humans are territorial, much like dogs (and some humans look... --oh, never mind), so one major factor in encouraging such conflicts is just that. Most wars are found over resources, which does include land and water rights, although other factors can contribute.

The Mohave, much like the Bushmen in Africa, lived in areas most others didn't want, so ...

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. The Mohave, for example, didn't even have a word for "war" in their language.

Humans are territorial, much like dogs (and some humans look... --oh, never mind), so one major factor in encouraging such conflicts is just that. Most wars are found over resources, which does include land and water rights, although other factors can contribute.

Territorial is the story we get from Northern Canada as well. Once boundaries were fairly well established, there is less. But I'm sure the variety was beyond our wildest imaginations. So much depended on the local resources.

 

[Vinayaka]

It was the Muslims who fled and were being persecuted not the idol worshippers or believers in other gods not the other way round. The Meccans continued hunting down the Muslims even to Abyssinia and Medina with intent to commit genocide.

They had no choice but to defend themselves under those circumstances.

Pretty ancient history, no? But the point still stands that it's not fair to select a single quote out of a scripture and apply it widely. Would you like me to judge your life attitude on a single day, the day when you felt miserable, had the flu, and were just grumpy over all? It's wisdom that looks at the bigger picture.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Pretty ancient history, no? But the point still stands that it's not fair to select a single quote out of a scripture and apply it widely. Would you like me to judge your life attitude on a single day, the day when you felt miserable, had the flu, and were just grumpy over all? It's wisdom that looks at the bigger picture.

I’m just saying the foundation and history of Islam was all about the right to freedom of belief and worship and all the battles and wars fought were about that one theme.

There are numerous verses which support that not only that one passage.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’m just saying the foundation and history of Islam was all about the right to freedom of belief and worship and all the battles and wars fought were about that one theme.

There are numerous verses which support that not only that one passage.

I've never read the Quran, and don't intend to. But from reading about how others have interpreted it, I am not going to take your word for it. I'll let those interested debate it if they wish, and read the debate.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've never read the Quran, and don't intend to. But from reading about how others have interpreted it, I am not going to take your word for it. I'll let those interested debate it if they wish, and read the debate.

The Quran was only one instance of God communicating with humanity. He speaks to all people in their own religion and culture.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Quran was only one instance of God communicating with humanity. He speaks to all people in their own religion and culture.

Really? Atheists too? Apparently they're deaf then. The Abrahamic God of Wrath certainly isn't speaking to me, and I hope He never does.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Really? Atheists too? Apparently they're deaf then. The Abrahamic God of Wrath certainly isn't speaking to me, and I hope He never does.

Doesn’t the sun shine upon all and the rain fall upon crops not asking whether we are believers or not?

We all think differently and are bound to differ but the one thing we all have in common is our humanity which I believe is what matters most.

 

[Lyndon]

I've never read the Quran, and don't intend to. But from reading about how others have interpreted it, I am not going to take your word for it. I'll let those interested debate it if they wish, and read the debate.

So your arguments against the Quran basically come from a position of ignorance????

 

[Vinayaka]

So your arguments against the Quran basically come from a position of ignorance????

Not complete ignorance, but most certainly from second hand information, yes. To do it true justice, I'd have to learn Arabic, as would anybody. (Not sure if that's correct, but whatever language the original is in.) So my knowledge comes from stuff like this ... Violence in the Quran - Wikipedia

Others have done a lot of work on it, and this debate rages on, and I seriously doubt if it will end soon. But like I've said many times, I've never met personally a violent Muslim. But I live in Canada too, where Muslims are less than 2% of the population.

Using scripture to justify violence is nothing new, or at all unique to Islam. Hitler's buddy Himmler used the Bhagavad Gita to do it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not complete ignorance, but most certainly from second hand information, yes. To do it true justice, I'd have to learn Arabic, as would anybody. (Not sure if that's correct, but whatever language the original is in.) So my knowledge comes from stuff like this ... Violence in the Quran - Wikipedia

Others have done a lot of work on it, and this debate rages on, and I seriously doubt if it will end soon. But like I've said many times, I've never met personally a violent Muslim. But I live in Canada too, where Muslims are less than 2% of the population.

Using scripture to justify violence is nothing new, or at all unique to Islam. Hitler's buddy Himmler used the Bhagavad Gita to do it.

The Gita I didn’t know that.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Gita I didn’t know that.

I think if you have violence on your mind, you're going to do it, one way or another. It's sad, and often has dire consequences for peace minded people. If an aggressive force meets a passive force, the aggressive one will win. Humanity has lost so much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think if you have violence on your mind, you're going to do it, one way or another. It's sad, and often has dire consequences for peace minded people. If an aggressive force meets a passive force, the aggressive one will win. Humanity has lost so much.

We can bring it back with you Hindus. The force for good must become stronger than the forces of evil to win the day.

 

[Vinayaka]

We can bring it back with you Hindus. The force for good must become stronger than the forces of evil to win the day.

I don't believe in good and evil. That's Abrahamic to the core.

But yes, the Vedas had a ton of stuff about peace in them. Ahimsa has been at the core of Sanatana Dharma for a very long time. I do think there is less stuff in our core scriptures to be misinterpreted. Some of the secondary scriptures are absolutely horrendous though, filled with violence. Most people write it all off by saying it's all allegorical against inner demons, but I'd favour it not being there at all, and then there's no room for the wrong interpretation.

Hindus have been ending prayers with Aum Shanti, Shanti, Shantihi for eons.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't believe in good and evil. That's Abrahamic to the core.

But yes, the Vedas had a ton of stuff about peace in them. Ahimsa has been at the core of Sanatana Dharma for a very long time. I do think there is less stuff in our core scriptures to be misinterpreted. Some of the secondary scriptures are absolutely horrendous though, filled with violence. Most people write it all off by saying it's all allegorical against inner demons, but I'd favour it not being there at all, and then there's no room for the wrong interpretation.

Hindus have been ending prayers with Aum Shanti, Shanti, Shantihi for eons.

We also don’t believe in the actual existence of evil. It is just a term used to define when we have gone very far off the rails but things like Satan, the devil or evil we don’t believe truly exist.

 

[Looncall]

My point is that it is not the religion which is teaching these things. Violence has been part of human history since the dawn of time.

Nah, that's a cop-out. If Islam was as great as we are constantly told, it would override the barbarities constantly reported of Muslims.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nah, that's a cop-out. If Islam was as great as we are constantly told, it would override the barbarities constantly reported of Muslims.

I believe the majority of the 1.7 billion Muslims are peaceful people and that it’s only small groups that grab the headlines of a Christian west only too eager to discredit Islam.