My problem with religion.

[Muffled]

To quote-
"Not necessarily, no!"

I lay claim to having (along with several other Baha'is) spent an uncomfortable Sunday afternoon (following a 'Deepening') with a member of the Oz NSA who insisted we all go down to the nearby Botanic Park to make 'Cold Contact' with strangers and introduce them to the Baha'i faith.

Five, under pressure, went...I and another declined.

One of many proselytization episodes I could recount.

Rod.

What was your problem with this. Did you just not care about people or did you construe Ba'haiism not worthy of proclamation?

 

[jumpingjoy]

My problem with religion is being told I am going to burn in hell by an extreme rightwing Christian!

 

[Zadok]

Generally we think of the poor as someone needing help that if given assistance; the problem of poverty for that individual is solved. My personal experience with those in poverty is that there is no one cause that defines all poor. I believe there are at least 4 types of engines (causes) of poverty and that by applying all the same methods of help and concern that such singular help in some cases brings resolution but in others will actually fuel incentive of poverty dependence.

A large percentage of individuals in poverty are mentally or physically handicapped to the point that regardless of any and all efforts they will never be able to completely sustain themselves. They will always remain dependent at some level. And it does not matter if they are “converted” to any dogma or not – they will never be able to contribute much of a significant contribution to any institution for us to be concerned about any “forced” indoctrination. Any “religion” or institution that wishes to add to their numbers by “converting” populations of forever dependent individuals will eventually find themselves attempting unsustainable social behaviors. This is why government poverty programs do not succeed but become focused on political power on others non poverty segments of the population. This is why guilt becomes the primary motivation in most institutions to enlist help rather than compassion.

Any program that separates the compassion of individual givers from the moment to moment challenges of the needy will always fail. Giving money without personal contact to those in need is the great error of this generation and the folly of thinking tax dollars will ever help.

Zadok

 

[Zadok]

My problem with religion is being told I am going to burn in hell by an extreme rightwing Christian!

“My problem with participating in politics or having respect for anyone that participates in politics (voting as an example) is the extreme leftwing political entities that tell me I will suffer in a political hell for not supporting their agenda.” Are you kidding (coning) me???

Zadok

 

[Wombat]

What was your problem with this. Did you just not care about people or did you construe Ba'haiism not worthy of proclamation?

Baha’is are not permitted to proselytise.
“"It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all the believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing.”
I “cared” enough about people to leave strangers in a park on a sunny day alone to enjoy themselves...rather than be harassed by a Godbotherer ;-)

 

[Nerthus]

My problem with religion is being told I am going to burn in hell by an extreme rightwing Christian!

I would say this is one of my main problems with it too.

Also, that god would send people to burn in hell for simply not believing in him.

 

[jumpingjoy]

I would say this is one of my main problems with it too.

Also, that god would send people to burn in hell for simply not believing in him.

What a very unpleasant view of the deity is held by some Christians. He would have to be very evil if unbelief was a crime! As God's existence cannot be proved it is as reasonable to unbelieve as it is to believe, probably more so.

 

[jumpingjoy]

“My problem with participating in politics or having respect for anyone that participates in politics (voting as an example) is the extreme leftwing political entities that tell me I will suffer in a political hell for not supporting their agenda.” Are you kidding (coning) me???

Zadok

Give me left-wing socialist politics any day of the week to the evil Tea Party nonsense which is infesting the USofA!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why should he who feeds spiritual bread to the spritually hungry be considered inferior to the person who feeds the physically hungry with physical bread>

Because those who "feed spiritual bread to the spiritually hungry", as you put it, aren't acting out of charity; they're selling a product.

I look down on anyone who uses someone's misfortune as a selling opportunity.

 

[AxisMundi]

Baha’is are not permitted to proselytise.
“"It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all the believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing.”
I “cared” enough about people to leave strangers in a park on a sunny day alone to enjoy themselves...rather than be harassed by a Godbotherer ;-)

Mere word play and semantic dishonesty.

Like the other Abrahamics, Baha'ai proselytise constantly, as proven by those who frequent this site.

 

[AxisMundi]

Because those who "feed spiritual bread to the spiritually hungry", as you put it, aren't acting out of charity; they're selling a product.

I look down on anyone who uses someone's misfortune as a selling opportunity.

Frublas to you.

 

[Wombat]

Ah!........’Tennis’! ;-)

Like the other Abrahamics, Baha'ai proselytise constantly, as proven by those who frequent this site.

Clearly you cannot distinguish between what is “permitted” and what is obviously and undeniably often done without ‘permission’.

Thus-

Mere word play and semantic dishonesty..

is rendered false and redundant ;-)


(But it was a nice failed try at backhand backswing ;-)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah!........’Tennis’! ;-)




Clearly you cannot distinguish between what is “permitted” and what is obviously and undeniably often done without ‘permission’.

Thus-


is rendered false and redundant ;-)


(But it was a nice failed try at backhand backswing ;-)

Any activity done in the hope that it will win converts or attract people to your religion is, by definition, proselytizing. You might be using the "soft sell" instead of the "hard sell", but it sounds like you're still selling.

 

[AxisMundi]

Ah!........’Tennis’! ;-)




Clearly you cannot distinguish between what is “permitted” and what is obviously and undeniably often done without ‘permission’.

Thus-


is rendered false and redundant ;-)


(But it was a nice failed try at backhand backswing ;-)

Ah yes, the guilty cat with his paw in the fish bowl trying to look innocent.

I have yet to meet any Baha'ai who didn't prosetylize as much, if not more, than any other Abrahamic.

I think you need to realize that it's not how you interprit your actions, but how others do.

 

[Wombat]

Ah yes, the guilty cat with his paw in the fish bowl trying to look innocent..

The fish said its fin was itchy.

I have yet to meet any Baha'ai who didn't prosetylize as much, if not more, than any other Abrahamic..

Please to meet you. I'm your first. A Baha'i who has no interest in or histry of attempting to convert anyone to anything and recomends people be very cautious of and/or stay away from the Baha'i community.

I think you need to realize that it's not how you interprit your actions, but how others do.

And in like manner "I think you need to realize that it's not how you interprit" my actions it's about you being able to provide any evidence or example of my actions reflecting or representing proselytizing in any way shape or form.

Failing that you have naught but pee in the wind and a hasty decision as to which way the wind is blowing ;-)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And in like manner "I think you need to realize that it's not how you interprit" my actions it's about you being able to provide any evidence or example of my actions reflecting or representing proselytizing in any way shape or form.

The other day as I was going through the train station, a team of cheery people were handing out samples of garbage bags. Each one came folded up in a little envelope/brochure that talked about how these garbage bags were excellent garbage bags, and had a little coupon that I could use for 50 cents off, just in case I chose to buy a package from the store.

Was this company merely "teaching" about garbage bags, or was it trying to sell me something?

How does this compare to the activities you described yourself doing?

 

[Zadok]

Give me left-wing socialist politics any day of the week to the evil Tea Party nonsense which is infesting the USofA!

The constitution and the rule of law is such an infestation problem. I agree with you – masses are so stupid we should make everyone a ward of the state.

Zadok

 

[Wombat]

How does this compare to the activities you described yourself doing?

Ummmmmmmmmm......>what< "activities" did I "describe myself as doing"?

 

[jtartar]

My suspicion is that the first and formative religious inculcation is that which occurs in the family-
absorbing the families values, principles, morals and narratives/beliefs. Our family was non practicing, non denominational Christian with strong left leaning political beliefs...social justice was central and essential.
My ‘conversion’ from politics to religion came during the recession of the early 80’s. I was (and remain) a Welfare Worker and lived in an impoverished working class inner suburb of a major city. The much anticipated newly elected Federal Government had clearly failed to provide any effective (promised) reform or enhanced social welfare net and service provision.
Looking around my neighbourhood I could see few if any effective grass roots government agencies but could easily identify-
The Sisters of Mercy, (Catholic) Providing a range of accommodation, good/cheap meals and support.
The Sisters of the Back Streets and Alleyways, (Anglican) Care/support to homeless
The Uniting Church Soup Kitchen, Free food and support.
Salvation Army....and the list goes on...
Over the years and through my work I came to meet and know many people from diverse denominations (including Moslems, Sikhs and Krishna’s) and became familiar with their beliefs.
The paradox (for me) was that it was often the ones with the flakiest and most unappealing doctrine that provided the most embracing and effective sense of community and social services...while those with the most appealing (to me) doctrines and beliefs often weren’t up to doing much if anything at all.
Then...when I got down to the matter/issue of what was ‘spiritual’....I found that those who talked about it most imbued it the least...and those who could recite scripture chapter and verse didn’t seem capable of living out The Golden Rule at even the most basic level.
In short...the most religious struck me as the least spiritual...and the most spiritual (calm, loving, accepting and active) more often turned out to be those who did not speak of religion even if they had one.
Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.
Rod

Wombat,
I understand exactly what you are talking about when it comes to religion. The historic truth is; some of the most horrific and atrocious actions have been perpetrated by people in the name of religion. But contemplate a minute: Can we blace God because people do not obey Him. God has had recorded that there is only ONE RELIGION that He is blessing today, Eph 4:3-6. This today is the True Christian Congregation, which is a pillor and support of the truth, 1Tim 3:15. There is a word; syncretism, and by this process chrisendom has become adulterated with false beliefs, jut as was warned about by Bible writers, Acts 20:29,30, Col 2:8, 2Pet 2:1-3.
A very important thing to think about is how God condemns those who say they are doing His will and are lying. Because these ones are claiming to be Christian, and not obeying Bible commands, they cause other people to blaspheme the Name of God, Rom 2:23,24.
One real important reason for problems is the belief in more than ONE GOD. To be a true Christian you must believe only in one God, John 17:3, 1Cor 8:4-6,the God of the Holy Bible, 2Pet 1:20,21,who is the source of life, Ps 36:9, who created the Heavens and the Earth, Isa 45:18, and all the things in them, Rev 4:11.
If you really think about it you realize that if the truth of the Gospel was really being taught, John 17:17, 1Pet 1:25, the world would be getting to be a better place to live in every day, Heb 4:12,13, Eph 4:22-24. The Gospel is God's means for salvation to everyone who will listen, Rom 1:16. God only blesses those who speak the TRUTH and teach the truth, John 4:22,24. That is NOT christendom today!!!
For any of us to be blessed by God and have the opportunity to live through the Great Tribulation, we must separate ourselves from false christendom, and search for that one religion that God favors.

 

[AxisMundi]

Wombat,
I understand exactly what you are talking about when it comes to religion. The historic truth is; some of the most horrific and atrocious actions have been perpetrated by people in the name of religion. But contemplate a minute: Can we blace God because people do not obey Him. God has had recorded that there is only ONE RELIGION that He is blessing today, Eph 4:3-6. This today is the True Christian Congregation, which is a pillor and support of the truth, 1Tim 3:15. There is a word; syncretism, and by this process chrisendom has become adulterated with false beliefs, jut as was warned about by Bible writers, Acts 20:29,30, Col 2:8, 2Pet 2:1-3.
A very important thing to think about is how God condemns those who say they are doing His will and are lying. Because these ones are claiming to be Christian, and not obeying Bible commands, they cause other people to blaspheme the Name of God, Rom 2:23,24.
One real important reason for problems is the belief in more than ONE GOD. To be a true Christian you must believe only in one God, John 17:3, 1Cor 8:4-6,the God of the Holy Bible, 2Pet 1:20,21,who is the source of life, Ps 36:9, who created the Heavens and the Earth, Isa 45:18, and all the things in them, Rev 4:11.
If you really think about it you realize that if the truth of the Gospel was really being taught, John 17:17, 1Pet 1:25, the world would be getting to be a better place to live in every day, Heb 4:12,13, Eph 4:22-24. The Gospel is God's means for salvation to everyone who will listen, Rom 1:16. God only blesses those who speak the TRUTH and teach the truth, John 4:22,24. That is NOT christendom today!!!
For any of us to be blessed by God and have the opportunity to live through the Great Tribulation, we must separate ourselves from false christendom, and search for that one religion that God favors.

Same book claims there is enough water on this 6,000 year old, flat center-of-the-universe disk to completely inundate the surface so that mankind, which originated from one mating couple, could be killed off.

You'll forgive us if we don't buy into the whole "one god-one religion" nonsense, especially considering that we have excellent archival and archaeological evidences of religion nd deities far, far older than yours.