My thoughts on the shooting of two terrorists in Garland, TX

[Shadow Wolf]

Another good example is the popular US show "South Park", which routinely has anti-semitism in it at the expense of one of the main characters - Kyle.

There's literally hundreds of South Park episodes, too.

Except South Park is very tongue-in-cheek, and it parodies and satirizes an entire range of bigotries. That, and Cartman is the only character who gives Kyle a hard time for being Jewish, and very frequently Cartman is forced to eat his own words.

I always am confused by this. Why shouldn't we judge all religions and their danger by all of the effects they have on the world? The reasonable Muslims should be taken into account, just as the extremists should. this seems to be the way that all religions are dealt with today.

If you go by those standards, then Islam has had a tremendous positive effect on the world. While the Christians of the Dark Ages in Europe were slaughtering each other and condemning science, the Islamic Empire enjoyed a Medieval era in which they advanced medicine, education, math, and science. But even today you can't condemn the entire religion based on the acts of a few. Religion is all about interpretation, and interpretations are largely determined by circumstances. Interpretation is so crucial in this regard, because Martin Heidegger was one of the Western philosophers who partly inspired the Islamic Revolution in the 70s. I would hate for his books to be banned because they have a link to radical Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, but I also think that yours is a remarkably thoughtless question. For a whole serious a reasons the Muslim communities tend to be less integrated and far more tied to their respective countries of origin. They are impacted not only by Islamophobia at home by also by such things as drone strikes abroad.

That is a remarkably biased statement. Was it meant to be ironical? I have to ask to know.

 

[LuisDantas]

Cultures that feel persistently disrespected and persecuted react violently to ridicule - even more so when they a fed a steady diet of anti-Western propaganda. The result can be barbaric, particularly on the part of the militant fringe of those who feel most marginalized, but this result is not endemic to Islam. So, for example, to the best of my knowledge the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the US reject such terrorism.

Note that CAIR reiterates:

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The problem I have with this post is that you seem to be implying that when a community becomes so self-centered that it forces others to choose between submission to bullying and eventual terrorism or running the risk of hurting their feelings with criticism submission must be chosen.

Actually, make that one of the problems. The other is that the statement that the claim that it is not endemic to Islam is ill-supported at best, and at this point looks quite a bit like straight denial to me.

 

[LuisDantas]

Mostly because religions aren't the problem: People are. Since the Muslims that live in my area, and there are thousands of them, don't do any violence that I can see, then I can safely assume that it isn't the religion itself but a small percentage of them who give all the others a bad name.

Christine, I just don't see how religions can refuse any responsibility whatsoever for how people behave.

Isn't influencing behavior and values a necessary part of being a religion in the first place?

If we are not going to acknowledge that they have such a goal, is there even a reason to use the concept of religion left? I can't think of any, personally.

 

[leibowde84]

Mostly because religions aren't the problem: People are. Since the Muslims that live in my area, and there are thousands of them, don't do any violence that I can see, then I can safely assume that it isn't the religion itself but a small percentage of them who give all the others a bad name.

See, I think that is irresponsible. As I said above, of course the peaceful, reasonable Muslims should be given their fair share of representing their religion, but we have to take the bad with the good and judge the religion as a whole. I think that is the only fair way. I am not blaming peaceful Muslims for anything, but I am not going to treat the extremists as not being Muslim at the same time.

 

[leibowde84]

Except South Park is very tongue-in-cheek, and it parodies and satirizes an entire range of bigotries. That, and Cartman is the only character who gives Kyle a hard time for being Jewish, and very frequently Cartman is forced to eat his own words.

If you go by those standards, then Islam has had a tremendous positive effect on the world. While the Christians of the Dark Ages in Europe were slaughtering each other and condemning science, the Islamic Empire enjoyed a Medieval era in which they advanced medicine, education, math, and science. But even today you can't condemn the entire religion based on the acts of a few. Religion is all about interpretation, and interpretations are largely determined by circumstances. Interpretation is so crucial in this regard, because Martin Heidegger was one of the Western philosophers who partly inspired the Islamic Revolution in the 70s. I would hate for his books to be banned because they have a link to radical Islam.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth (Christine did this in her last post). I am in no way suggesting that we "condemning Islam for the actions of a few", I am suggesting that we judge Islam as a whole, including both the bad and the good respectively. Of course peaceful Muslims should be taken into account. And, since there are far more of them than radicals, I don't hold Islam to be any worse than any other religion. But, that being said, I do not disregard the actions of extremists as not being connected with Islam, because the most certainly are. The religion should be judged, in general, but the actions of its adherents ... all of them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That is a remarkably biased statement.

^ That is a remarkably biased opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

^ That is a remarkably biased opinion.

Tell me why you think so.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, but I also think that yours is a remarkably thoughtless question. For a whole serious a reasons the Muslim communities tend to be less integrated and far more tied to their respective countries of origin. They are impacted not only by Islamophobia at home by also by such things as drone strikes abroad.

Some times it just seems that they are "effected" a lot more by everything than most others. I get the ties back to their home lands, but if they left, they might want to move on. My great grandparents generation, when they came to the US, they sort of cut ties with their home lands in order to build themselves a better life in America. Now, I'm not saying anything about morals or what is "right", but it does seem logical that cutting ties (at least partially) helps one to get ahead in a new home. If you keep looking back, you won't consider your new country "home" at all. Sometimes I feel like they aren't even interested in that, but I really don't want to speak for any of them. I am just speaking to your point specifically.

 

[leibowde84]

^ That is a remarkably biased opinion.

It seems, sometimes, that you have a bias in favor of Islam and against Western Secular Society. Why is that? Or, am I mistaken?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some times it just seems that they are "effected" a lot more by everything than most others. I get the ties back to their home lands, but if they left, they might want to move on. My great grandparents generation, when they came to the US, they sort of cut ties with their home lands in order to build themselves a better life in America.

@leiibowde84, how many Muslims have you had social contact with -- maybe dinner, or a movie? How many Mosques have you visited?
My experience suggests that the overwhelming majority of Muslims sincerely and vehemently denounce terrorism as being both immoral and an immanent threat to Muslims. Now you can take one of a couple of positions:

• the ad hominem response: either I am lying, or those Muslims with whom I've interacted are misrepresenting themselves,
• the no true Scotsman response: yes, but these are not true Muslims,
• or an evidence-based response: blaming Islam for ISIS terrorism is very much like blaming Christianity for abortion clinic bombings.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It seems, sometimes, that you have a bias in favor of Islam and against Western Secular Society. Why is that? Or, am I mistaken?

You are mistaken. I have a bias in favor of pluralism and against xenophobia while being adamantly in favor of Western secular society.

 

[leibowde84]

@leiibowde84, how many Muslims have you had social contact with -- maybe dinner, or a movie? How many Mosques have you visited?
My experience suggests that the overwhelming majority of Muslims sincerely and vehemently denounce terrorism as being both immoral and an immanent threat to Muslims. Now you can take one of a couple of positions:

• the ad hominem response: either I am lying, or those Muslims with whom I've interacted are misrepresenting themselves,
• the no true Scotsman response: yes, but these are not true Muslims,
• or an evidence-based response: blaming Islam for ISIS terrorism is very much like blaming Christianity for abortion clinic bombings.

1. I have many Muslim friends whom I often have dinner and see movies with. Many of them agree with my reasonable approach of judging the religion as a whole, not just by the actions of extremists, but by the actions of all adherents. I don't think it is right to judge peaceful Muslims by the actions of anyone other than themselves. But, I am not judging them, I am judging Islam, an organized religion / set of beliefs, and I think it is more than reasonable to judge the religion by everyone acting in its name, whether they be peaceful or violent.
2. "or an evidence-based response: blaming Islam for ISIS terrorism is very much like blaming Christianity for abortion clinic bombings." -- I actually think that this is completely reasonable. As I said above, I don't judge Islam by the actions of extremists only, but I think it reasonable to allow those actions to play a part in that judgment. But, since there are far more peaceful Muslims than not, my judgment is not that harsh on the religion itself. And, i have never said otherwise.

In regards to Christianity and Abortion Clinic Bombings, I think that the religion is partly to blame. Many religious pro-lifers distort the issue immensely, claiming that the fact that "life begins at conception" is the main issue, when it is certainly not (at least not legally). The bodily autonomy of the woman is what is paramount, and the church seems to actively try to confuse the issue into something that it is not. It is a legal issue, not a moral one, when discussing whether abortion should be banned.

 

[leibowde84]

You are mistaken. I have a bias in favor of pluralism and against xenophobia while being adamantly in favor of Western secular society.

Fair enough. I feel the same way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

12. "or an evidence-based response: blaming Islam for ISIS terrorism is very much like blaming Christianity for abortion clinic bombings." -- I actually think that this is completely reasonable.

Then there is little to be gained from continuing this discussion ...

 

[leibowde84]

Then there is little to be gained from continuing this discussion ...

Did you read my explanation? Do you not think it reasonable? If not, why not? Try to be respectful, please. You merely picked out a single sentence from my reply and judged me on that. Kind of ironic, as it is exactly what you are suggesting is wrong.

Here is the rest of my explanation:

"2. "or an evidence-based response: blaming Islam for ISIS terrorism is very much like blaming Christianity for abortion clinic bombings." -- I actually think that this is completely reasonable. As I said above, I don't judge Islam by the actions of extremists only, but I think it reasonable to allow those actions to play a part in that judgment. But, since there are far more peaceful Muslims than not, my judgment is not that harsh on the religion itself. And, i have never said otherwise.

In regards to Christianity and Abortion Clinic Bombings, I think that the religion is partly to blame. Many religious pro-lifers distort the issue immensely, claiming that the fact that "life begins at conception" is the main issue, when it is certainly not (at least not legally). The bodily autonomy of the woman is what is paramount, and the church seems to actively try to confuse the issue into something that it is not. It is a legal issue, not a moral one, when discussing whether abortion should be banned."

 

[leibowde84]

Then there is little to be gained from continuing this discussion ...

What is your reasoning for disregarding anything negative done in the name of a religion and only considering positives that come out of said religion? That seems like an incredibly dishonest practice, imho, but I'm all ears if you can defend it. Again, I think all the bad should be weighed against all of the good. Is that not fair?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is your reasoning for disregarding anything negative done in the name of a religion and only considering positives that come out of said religion?

I do no such thing. That you would foolishly claim otherwise only confirms my sense that further discussion with you on this matter is a waste of time and effort. Have a great day ...

 

[leibowde84]

I do no such thing. That you would foolishly claim otherwise only confirms my sense that further discussion with you on this matter is a waste of time and effort. Have a great day ...

The only reason why I would think that is because you disagreed with me. My position, as I've said multiple times, is that we should take the bad along with the good when judging a religion. You said you disagreed with me, which is where my question came from. So, do you agree with me?

 

[leibowde84]

I do no such thing. That you would foolishly claim otherwise only confirms my sense that further discussion with you on this matter is a waste of time and effort. Have a great day ...

No one on this entire thread said that we should judge Islam ONLY by the acts of extremists. Not sure where that idea would have come from. Our argument was merely that it should be taken into account; and given proper weight of course.