My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

[YmirGF]

I have checked all such places in Quran, all such places are clear in the context verses.
Muhammad was indeed opposed to violence and war.
Regards

Um, who isn't? I think there are very, very few people who would openly declare their support for open violence and outright war.

 

[paarsurrey]

The problem is that the Quran claims to be literally the word of God, in a way that the Bible does not. In any discussion with a Muslim, you will end up at a point where they deploy the argument "it's in the Quran"; if you don't accept the Quran, where can you go from there?

Yes, Quran is word for word Word of G-d but it gives reasonable arguments in the text and the context of the verses, one who believes in reason will accept the reason in the verses. If one gets convinced with the reason heart and soul, there is no harm in it else one could have one's own view-point, its one's own discretion.
There are core teachings of Quran relating to ethical, moral and spiritual matters. There are other that relate to the secular or worldly domains, there the constitution or law of land will prevail and a Muslim would follow them as per injunction of the Quran.
Things become easy this way.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

You're welcome!

I was speaking on your behalf. Hadith are not considered infallible nor the word of God, but similar to Christan Gospels, they are documents of the lives of Prophet Muhammad and his Companions related by a chain of narrators through generations of oral transmission, written down by Bukhari and Muslim, the most popular authors of the Hadith. As these have been transmitted and related through a generations of people with flawed memories and mentalities, it's easy to believe they are fallible and not every of these Hadith should be relied on.

I agree with you.
Regards

 

[JFish123]

Yes, Quran is word for word Word of G-d but it gives reasonable arguments in the text and the context of the verses, one who believes in reason will accept the reason in the verses. If one gets convinced with the reason heart and soul, there is no harm in it else one could have one's own view-point, its one's own discretion.
There are core teachings of Quran relating to ethical, moral and spiritual matters. There are other that relate to the secular or worldly domains, there the constitution or law of land will prevail and a Muslim would follow them as per injunction of the Quran.
Things become easy this way.
Regards

Whatever anyone thinks of Muhammad either good or bad, he still did kill people, raid caravans, and use violence. That's just history.

 

[JFish123]

Very interesting debate for anyone who cares to watch. Even the first 8+ mins are interesting

 

[Kirran]

Yes, Quran is word for word Word of G-d but it gives reasonable arguments in the text and the context of the verses, one who believes in reason will accept the reason in the verses. If one gets convinced with the reason heart and soul, there is no harm in it else one could have one's own view-point, its one's own discretion.
There are core teachings of Quran relating to ethical, moral and spiritual matters. There are other that relate to the secular or worldly domains, there the constitution or law of land will prevail and a Muslim would follow them as per injunction of the Quran.
Things become easy this way.
Regards

How come it makes so many mistakes regarding history, geography and biology?

 

[paarsurrey]

How come it makes so many mistakes regarding history, geography and biology?

Did you note it while you were reading Quran yourself? Please
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Did you note it while you were reading Quran yourself? Please
Regards

Through reading quotes from the Qur'an.

 

[paarsurrey]

How come it makes so many mistakes regarding history, geography and biology?

There are 114 chapters of Quran, of which there are many that are not longer than a few sentences. Since every chapter is a whole unit in itself, you may read one such chapter at random, if a thing occurs to you that should be discussed, we could start our discussion from that, and so on an so forth.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Through reading quotes from the Qur'an.

So, you have no question of your own on Quran.
Am I right?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

So, you have no question of your own on Quran.
Am I right?
Regards

I do. For example:

"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump (foetus); then we made out of that lump bones then clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" - Q 23:14.

This is an inaccurate description of the process by which a foetus develops in the womb. It says there are bones formed, then flesh. This isn't what happens.

"And He has set up on the Earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves." - Q 16:15

Mountains do not function to keep the Earth from shaking.

"The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" - Q 9:30

The Jews do not say that Ezra is the son of God.

Luis, I hope it's OK us having this discussion on your thread. Can move if you like.

 

[paarsurrey]

I do. For example:

"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump (foetus); then we made out of that lump bones then clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" - Q 23:14.

This is an inaccurate description of the process by which a foetus develops in the womb. It says there are bones formed, then flesh. This isn't what happens.

"And He has set up on the Earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves." - Q 16:15

Mountains do not function to keep the Earth from shaking.

"The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" - Q 9:30

The Jews do not say that Ezra is the son of God.

Luis, I hope it's OK us having this discussion on your thread. Can move if you like.

But these are borrowed questions from other websites.
I answer questions which arise to one naturally while one studies Quran.
Right?

Regards

 

[Kirran]

But these are borrowed questions from other websites.
I answer questions which arise to one naturally while one studies Quran.
Right?

Regards

So you can't address these problems? These are actual verses from the Qur'an. No matter where I read them, they strike me as problems in this claim of divine infallibility.

 

[paarsurrey]

So you can't address these problems? These are actual verses from the Qur'an. No matter where I read them, they strike me as problems in this claim of divine infallibility.

Did I say there was any problem?
None, whatsoever.
Your approach is not natural. Right?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Did I say there was any problem?
None, whatsoever.
Your approach is not natural. Right?
Regards

I referred to these problems I perceive in the claims to infallibility of the Qur'an.

My approach is certainly natural. I read some assertions by the Qur'an. I found them to not make sense.

Can you address any of these issues which prove to me that the Qur'an was written by fallible human beings?

 

[paarsurrey]

I referred to these problems I perceive in the claims to infallibility of the Qur'an.

My approach is certainly natural. I read some assertions by the Qur'an. I found them to not make sense.

Can you address any of these issues which prove to me that the Qur'an was written by fallible human beings?

"The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" - Q 9:30

I quote the verse with the verses in the context (some preceding and some following the verse in question) to grasp the understanding of the meaning of the verses and their perspective:

[9:25]Surely, Allah had helped you on many a battlefield, and on the Day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you proud, but they availed you nought; and the earth, withallits vastness, became straitened for you,andthen you turned your backs retreating.
[9:26]Then Allah sent down His peace upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and He sent down hosts which you did not see, and He punished those who disbelieved. And this is the reward of the disbelievers.
[9:27]Then will Allah, after that, turn with compassion to whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[9:28]O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean. So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you out of His bounty, if He pleases. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
[9:29]Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax withtheir ownhand and acknowledge their subjection.
[9:30]And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say, the Messiah is the son of Allah; that is what they say with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah’s curse be on them! How are they turned away!
[9:31]They have taken their learned men and their monks for lords beside Allah. Andso have they takenthe Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but He. Too Holy is He for what they associatewith Him!
[9:32]They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths; but Allah will permit nothing except that He will perfect His light, though the disbelievers may dislikeit.
[9:33]He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over everyotherreligion, even though the idolaters may dislikeit.
[9:34]O ye who believe! surely, many of the priests and monks devour the wealth of men by false means and turnmenaway from the way of Allah. And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah — give to them the tidings of a painful punishment,
[9:35]On the day when it shall be made hot in the fire of Hell, and their foreheads and their sides and their backs shall be branded therewithand it shall be said to them: ‘This is what you treasured up for yourselves; so now taste what you used to treasure up.’
www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=9&verse=29

Do you endorse what Quran has told about the Christians "and the Christians say, the Messiah is the son of Allah"?
Right?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

"The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" - Q 9:30

I quote the verse with the verses in the context (some preceding and some following the verse in question) to grasp the understanding of the meaning of the verses and their perspective:

[9:25]Surely, Allah had helped you on many a battlefield, and on the Day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you proud, but they availed you nought; and the earth, withallits vastness, became straitened for you,andthen you turned your backs retreating.
[9:26]Then Allah sent down His peace upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and He sent down hosts which you did not see, and He punished those who disbelieved. And this is the reward of the disbelievers.
[9:27]Then will Allah, after that, turn with compassion to whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[9:28]O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean. So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you out of His bounty, if He pleases. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
[9:29]Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax withtheir ownhand and acknowledge their subjection.
[9:30]And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say, the Messiah is the son of Allah; that is what they say with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah’s curse be on them! How are they turned away!
[9:31]They have taken their learned men and their monks for lords beside Allah. Andso have they takenthe Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but He. Too Holy is He for what they associatewith Him!
[9:32]They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths; but Allah will permit nothing except that He will perfect His light, though the disbelievers may dislikeit.
[9:33]He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over everyotherreligion, even though the idolaters may dislikeit.
[9:34]O ye who believe! surely, many of the priests and monks devour the wealth of men by false means and turnmenaway from the way of Allah. And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah — give to them the tidings of a painful punishment,
[9:35]On the day when it shall be made hot in the fire of Hell, and their foreheads and their sides and their backs shall be branded therewithand it shall be said to them: ‘This is what you treasured up for yourselves; so now taste what you used to treasure up.’
www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=9&verse=29

Do you endorse what Quran has told about the Christians "and the Christians say, the Messiah is the son of Allah"?
Right?
Regards

I don't know if endorse is quite the right word to use here. But yes, I agree that this is an accurate statement, applying to the vast majority of Christians.

What is incorrect is the part which I have put in bold in your quote, above.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know if endorse is quite the right word to use here. But yes, I agree that this is an accurate statement, applying to the vast majority of Christians.
What is incorrect is the part which I have put in bold in your quote, above.

"[9:30]And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah,"

Was Ezra a Jew or not?
If yes, what is his status in Judaism?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

"[9:30]And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah,"

Was Ezra a Jew or not?
If yes, what is his status in Judaism?
Regards

He was a Jew. He was a scribe and a priest. He has never been proclaimed Son of God.

 

[paarsurrey]

He was a Jew. He was a scribe and a priest. He has never been proclaimed Son of God.

As per Exodus Chapter 4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '

All Jews are sons of G-d.
Ezra was a Jew and a high status religious Jewish figure, and that makes him a son of G-d as per Torah. Right ?
Quran addresses the Jews living in Medina at that time and their religious concepts. They never raised a question at that time that it was a wrong allegation that they believed Ezra as son of G-d. Later they migrated from Medina and might have joined/merged with other denominations and changed or reformed their concepts.
Quran addresses altogether different issues in the context verses where Ezra/Jesus have been mentioned.
Right ?
Regards