Mystics Only: Extended Discussion

[MysticSang'ha]

I've heard people talk of purposely going off that ledge and falling into... something (some people call it God). And it actually is frightening to take that step off the edge (I assume, the ego holding on).

I believe your assumptions are correct. The egoistic graspings that try to keep contained our perceptions on what is "real" and what is "imagined" manifest into fear when these perceptions are forcibly challenged. That spinning/falling sensation are there most of the time when I meditate now, and so it's quite normal for me at this point. Once there is an acceptance of these sensations.......and what I like to call "mind-surfing" .............the experience no longer is frightening, but incredibly liberating. That is when the journey can begin to be fully appreciated.

This past weekend with our visiting lama, I was able to catch glimpses here and there of that moment I described earlier, which is much more than these spinning/falling sensations. The lama said to me two words after hearing me convey my "awakening" experience in full detail, and which I hold dear to my heart:

Well done.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[zenzero]

Friend Guitar's Cry,
Yes, the self is always there but it is like a piece of twig floating in the river.
The river is will take the twig to meet the sea. Nothing to be afraid of; it [the self] is conciously allowing the river to direct its course without obstructing.Conciously the self is giving away all the time hardly remaing that old self.
Love & rgds

 

[vandervalley]

Yes, the self is always there but it is like a piece of twig floating in the river.
The river is will take the twig to meet the sea. Nothing to be afraid of; it [the self] is conciously allowing the river to direct its course without obstructing.Conciously the self is giving away all the time hardly remaing that old self.

But sometimes you dont need to "go with the flow";

Be yourself but try not to break the law of your country

 

[doppelganger]

Be yourself but try not to break the law of your country

You are the state.

 

[Ozzie]

I believe your assumptions are correct. The egoistic graspings that try to keep contained our perceptions on what is "real" and what is "imagined" manifest into fear when these perceptions are forcibly challenged. That spinning/falling sensation are there most of the time when I meditate now, and so it's quite normal for me at this point. Once there is an acceptance of these sensations.......and what I like to call "mind-surfing" .............the experience no longer is frightening, but incredibly liberating. That is when the journey can begin to be fully appreciated.

This past weekend with our visiting lama, I was able to catch glimpses here and there of that moment I described earlier, which is much more than these spinning/falling sensations. The lama said to me two words after hearing me convey my "awakening" experience in full detail, and which I hold dear to my heart:

Well done.




Peace,
Mystic

Why do you think a lot of Buddhists are hesitant to talk about what they experience in meditation? (that's what I've found).

 

[Ozzie]

Round Two:

(That is not to say we cannot go back and explore comments in the first part at our leisure, but I have a lot of ground I want to cover over the next few weeks. Hopefully people will remember this tiny thread and check in from time to time. So far the responses have been most heartening.)

One thing I have read (and agree with) is that any person who achieves a radical altered state, such as that of Oneness, Cosmic Consciousness, Dharma-Kaya, Illumination or dare I say, Enlightenment itself can always remember the exact moment their experience happened.

For me, the moment the Light went on was shortly after 8 PM PST (Pacific Standard Time), on Feb. 28, 1974, four days after my 18th birthday.

1.Can each of you pinpoint a "grand induction" experience or was your experience a series of less dazzling, but still evocative experiences?

For me, I have always called this my "grand awakening" as it was certainly dazzling beyond anything I could possibly have imagined prior to the event. How about you? To be honest at the time it was certainly a revelation of a sorts but being fully conscious in a way I had never been before tended to stunt that perception. Thirty years down the road I am leaning towards thinking my current self merely "pushed" my former self past the envelope of my somewhat stunted perceptions. It all made so much sense while it was happening even though I KNEW that I could never explain it to someone seated beside me. (It actually took several decades to distill my experience into words that are a fair approximation while remaining consistent with the event and at the same time being somewhat meaningful to others.)

This should be an easy one to go through and if you like send the time an detail your experience(s) so that others can ohh and ahh too. No sense being greedy, eh, and keeping it to one's self.

2. What was your intial reaction once you were back to your normal perspective? Did you do anything differently?

How many rounds are there? I'd hate to get knocked out in round 5 and miss the rest of the fight. Could you lay out where you want to go if you have a plan? That way we can have a chance to think about some of it in advance maybe.

 

[YmirGF]

How many rounds are there? I'd hate to get knocked out in round 5 and miss the rest of the fight. Could you lay out where you want to go if you have a plan? That way we can have a chance to think about some of it in advance maybe.

To be honest, I have a vague idea, but haven't firmed it up due to the fact that I am a bit busy of late. I'll give it some thought. I am more interested in the free flow of ideas.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Why do you think a lot of Buddhists are hesitant to talk about what they experience in meditation? (that's what I've found).

From what I've seen, and from my own perspective, there is great caution because if we aren't careful with our descriptions and experiences, we could very well exaggerate or manipulate the story to our advantage............which boils down to one of the basic precepts in Buddhism, and that's presenting a falsehood. Because lying is a big no-no, I feel at times unsure about sharing something so intimate and personal because I want to make absolutely sure that my story is perfectly true from my memory.

It's one thing to bear witness to an ordinary event. These stories can be verified through another person or can be compared to past habits. Experiences in meditation can very easily lead the observer into a set of presumptions which can be superstitious (but that is just my own little opinion, take it or leave it). I have just begun to feel confident enough to share my own experiences after years and years of practice. And even now, I try desperately not to assume anything when my meditation experiences shift however radically.

Then again, this MIGHT be the result of my years of experience in Zen (not saying that other schools don't practice this), where I became very used to being a simple observer and to not assign anything conceptual to what I saw, heard, or felt. The "awakening" moment I'd had before was deeply personal, but I wanted to be so sure of what I experienced. I had shared this experience with another member of our Dharma center not too long ago, and the response I heard was "I wish I had an experience like that!" Part of me wanted him to, another part of me wished he didn't have to go through that kind of hell, and then another part of me felt like I was in a position as some sort of guru...........and I suddenly felt rather uncomfortable..........I knew that if I was to help guide someone else toward the mind's true nature, I better know what the heck I'm talking about, and I better be perfectly truthful. Such is my motivation to become a Bodhisattva.

But that's just from my own experience, Oz. Others very well could have different motivations why they keep their experiences to themselves.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[blackout]

From what I've seen, and from my own perspective, there is great caution because if we aren't careful with our descriptions and experiences, we could very well exaggerate or manipulate the story to our advantage............which boils down to one of the basic precepts in Buddhism, and that's presenting a falsehood. Because lying is a big no-no, I feel at times unsure about sharing something so intimate and personal because I want to make absolutely sure that my story is perfectly true from my memory.

It's one thing to bear witness to an ordinary event. These stories can be verified through another person or can be compared to past habits. Experiences in meditation can very easily lead the observer into a set of presumptions which can be superstitious (but that is just my own little opinion, take it or leave it).

I have just begun to feel confident enough to share my own experiences after years and years of practice. And even now, I try desperately not to assume anything when my meditation experiences shift however radically.

Then again, this MIGHT be the result of my years of experience in Zen (not saying that other schools don't practice this), where I became very used to being a simple observer and to not assign anything conceptual to what I saw, heard, or felt. The "awakening" moment I'd had before was deeply personal, but I wanted to be so sure of what I experienced. I had shared this experience with another member of our Dharma center not too long ago, and the response I heard was "I wish I had an experience like that!" Part of me wanted him to, another part of me wished he didn't have to go through that kind of hell, and then another part of me felt like I was in a position as some sort of guru...........and I suddenly felt rather uncomfortable..........I knew that if I was to help guide someone else toward the mind's true nature, I better know what the heck I'm talking about, and I better be perfectly truthful. Such is my motivation to become a Bodhisattva.

But that's just from my own experience, Oz. Others very well could have different motivations why they keep their experiences to themselves.

Peace,
Mystic

I totally appreciate and relate to your comments here Mystic!

While I am not Buddist (or anything really),
your words may as well have been my own.

After my innital supernatural awakening...
I was incapable of even TRYING to relay it to anyone for months.
Then as I began contemplating how I might share my experience,
I started to really see (all the more)
how little I understood about it myself.

I had tied many of my own assumptions to the experience,
that were not REALLY the EXPERIENCE itself,
but MY OWN interpretation there-of instead.

My own limited "bank of terms & understanding"...
trying to "make sense of" an experience
far far beyond the "known" of my previous paradigm...
of my previous "MIND SET".

I believe it is best not to rush hastily into public discourse
regarding one's personal mystical experiences.
Especially those that have opened up a new paradigm experience.
At least until one is familiar with this whole process,
a couple of times,
it is better to let a season or two pass first...
or if you are blessed to know someone who UNDERSTANDS
and knows this type of experience personally,
that would be a great way to begin the sharing process.

We should be able to at least SEE where
the EXPERIENCE begins and ends,
in relation to the personal MEANINGS we found in it/put on it,
before venturing to share the experience publicly.

That is my opinion anyway in light of my own experience.:rainbow1:

Ps... I am so very elated to have you all here to explore my experiences with,
and to have a window into YOUR wonderful mystical experiences ...
(which in turn help me to better understand my own!)

 

[methylatedghosts]

I'd like to add that another reason is that these experiences are least effectively communicated through words! The best way to communicate them is to help someone else experience the same thing. Words could simply be inadequate

 

[autonomous1one1]

[FONT=&quot]

....... What I feel is necessary to remind folks is that they will feel compelled to share their inner visions, almost from the get go. THAT time is NOT the time TO discuss ones experiences, as there is a very low probablity that the observer will have grasped their experience fully. Beings like Buddha, the Christ and Krsna are exceptions to the rule as they are, imho, a different breed as it were. For the rest of us, we NEED to spend time quietly reflecting on what we perceive before taking our particular dog and pony show on the road.....

From what I've seen, and from my own perspective, there is great caution because if we aren't careful with our descriptions and experiences, we could very well exaggerate or manipulate the story to our advantage........ Others very well could have different motivations why they keep their experiences to themselves.

...After my innital supernatural awakening...
I was incapable of even TRYING to relay it to anyone for months.
....
I believe it is best not to rush hastily into public discourse
regarding one's personal mystical experiences.
.....
We should be able to at least SEE where
the EXPERIENCE begins and ends,
in relation to the personal MEANINGS we found in it/put on it,
before venturing to share the experience publicly.

[/FONT]

I'd like to add that another reason is that these experiences are least effectively communicated through words! The best way to communicate them is to help someone else experience the same thing. Words could simply be inadequate

Greetings. Looks like you all have made a similar point about caution in initially sharing a 'mystical' experience. :bow: I bow to your wisdom but deem it worthy of discussion to understand better the primary concern here. Is it concern that the experiencing individual might do harm within, that others might be misled or harmed, that the Oneness experience itself might be damaged, or some other negative impact?

Each individual case will be unique of course, but would you say in general that there are stages one will go through naturally (which can be rapid or slow) before sharing? - perhaps something like the following: first experience (whether image, conclusion, awareness, etc), repetition, interpretation of what it is/was and what it means, conceptualization into words and thoughts to communicate with others.

...To go from simple observation, to verifiable testimony, to rationalization, to the experiential, and finally to the attainment of a perfect awakened state. .....

Mystic, I wasn't quite sure how to understand your steps. Are 'observation, to verifiable testimony, to rationalization' before one's own experience or afterward?

Just to make it easy in this post, here are points from YmirGF in response to Mystic.

...Thank you for mention precisely that order of events. It should be noted that one must first and foremost be an unattached observer when viewing "reality". It is only be doing so, just that way, without thoughts muddying the process, that the true lustre within illuminates the view OF the observer. The second task is to verify by duplicating the experience beyond verbal symbols. Once that is done, one is well on their way. After repeated episodes, the mind begins to "catch up" with the experience and thoughts begin to flow in harmony with the inner vision. In time, with further experience one learns how to duplicate the method that worked/works for them and IS ABLE to share that method with others. It's like a snow ball rolling down a rather large slope.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mystic, I wasn't quite sure how to understand your steps. Are 'observation, to verifiable testimony, to rationalization' before one's own experience or afterward?
Just to make it easy in this post, here are points from YmirGF in response to Mystic.

Obviously, I would make my job easier to just defer to Paul in this case.

My steps I mentioned are necessary to begin once the experience begins. But one can practice on ordinary events without venturing into this practice in the mystical realms, IMHO. We can already remain an unattached observer when we are slandered, or when we receive a paycheck, or when we open a door. I think the same method can give us great practice so that when the more subtle realms begin to reveal themselves to us, we have a better chance of navigating through them.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[methylatedghosts]

Greetings. Looks like you all have made a similar point about caution in initially sharing a 'mystical' experience. :bow: I bow to your wisdom but deem it worthy of discussion to understand better the primary concern here. Is it concern that the experiencing individual might do harm within, that others might be misled or harmed, that the Oneness experience itself might be damaged, or some other negative impact?

Let's say you hear only MysticSang'ha's experience. What conclusions would you draw from that? You could fear the "death" experience part. You may think you actually need to have a death experience to do it. You may think you need to be physically exhausted. You could think these things and many more drawn from only Mystic's translating of her experience to you. And where she says "I saw everything in all it's glory" you may one of various preconceptions of what she means by that. It could be figurative. It could be literal. You may associate "Glory" with choirs of angels. Maybe what you think glory means is entirely different to what she thinks glory means. Maybe her "glory" is equal to your "awesomeness" (which each have different connotations and feelings)

This is why words do not do well to relate these experiences.

This problem is made worse if you were to describe Mystic's experience to someone else. You'd probably change a word or two that you think fits better. You may even leave out parts or add parts your imagination put there. Then this person would get a very different idea of the experience than Mystic actually had!

*Woah!!! HUGE deja vous experience right there!!!!!*

Anyways, continuing on...

The biggest negative impact would be the construction of preconceptions that would be likely to influence your experience.

 

[ChrisP]

Chiming in late I know, sorry Ymir. For what it's worth...

My first question is, "The modern mystic will understand that labels are essentially meaningless, but that doesn't mean some labels may well be applied regardless of our thoughts on the matter. So, the actual question is, if you do not consider yourself to be a mystic, then why not? Have you found any other meaningful label that others may appreciate?"

I relate to mystic experiences in some ways, but try to apply my experiences pratically. What use are learned lessons if you don't use them

Although I'd accept taoist as a label, using it to describe myself seems wrong out of cultural respect for modern day Taoism. I am familiar with and believe there is harmony in the central tenets of taoism and that they point the way to understanding the balance in life and accomodating and occupying ourselves as best we can in that existence.

Usually just use the catch- all "spiritual" as there are so many people these days who are fed up with being spoonfed theological thought and told to accept it as it is with no evidence or practical proof that it's theories/claims are tangibly/intangibly present and useful, let alone cognisant of the limitations of language. Most people in NZ are happy to talk about "spiritualism" in open conversation... although obviously it is not something I would personally bring up in a professional environment, and it's more likely to get a response from a woman than a man.

"Religion" or asking if someone is "religious" usually leaves people in two minds about how to respond if they have a conviction as they TOO don't want to be labelled (always seems amazing how afraid people are of each other ). It's easier, as a rule, to break the ice with "spiritual" and go from there. Slowly, I'm finding more and more likeminded people about town.

In terms of a meaningful title one day I'm hoping to be worthy of the title "content"

My second question is. "What do you think of what is termed "revelation" (in the religious context) versus "realization" in the personal context?

I think there are an unlimited number of revelations/realiSations we can experience. Perhaps once you've had a few and they begin to coalesce into a "greater" realisation, that greater realisation becomes the understanding that there is an infinite amount out there realise (in the sense "to make use of") this brings us to the point where we can stop trying to find realisation and wait for life to bring it to you as you need it.

You caught me on a good night Paul. I'm feeling pretty "spiritual"

 

[Ozzie]

To be honest, I have a vague idea, but haven't firmed it up due to the fact that I am a bit busy of late. I'll give it some thought. I am more interested in the free flow of ideas.

Constrain that vagueness if you can. You might just give me a rush of free association.

 

[Ozzie]

From what I've seen, and from my own perspective, there is great caution because if we aren't careful with our descriptions and experiences, we could very well exaggerate or manipulate the story to our advantage............which boils down to one of the basic precepts in Buddhism, and that's presenting a falsehood. Because lying is a big no-no, I feel at times unsure about sharing something so intimate and personal because I want to make absolutely sure that my story is perfectly true from my memory.

That's essentially the problem of translation as I see it.

It's one thing to bear witness to an ordinary event. These stories can be verified through another person or can be compared to past habits. Experiences in meditation can very easily lead the observer into a set of presumptions which can be superstitious (but that is just my own little opinion, take it or leave it)

Excellent point. I take it that you mean "superstition" in the sense of the experience being a private realm.

I have just begun to feel confident enough to share my own experiences after years and years of practice. And even now, I try desperately not to assume anything when my meditation experiences shift however radically.

That experience of shift is an essential element of the firsthand experience of Buddhism.

Then again, this MIGHT be the result of my years of experience in Zen (not saying that other schools don't practice this), where I became very used to being a simple observer and to not assign anything conceptual to what I saw, heard, or felt.

Zen is Buddhism to the extent it teaches the observer to not assign anything conceptual to what is seen, heard or felt.

The "awakening" moment I'd had before was deeply personal, but I wanted to be so sure of what I experienced. I had shared this experience with another member of our Dharma center not too long ago, and the response I heard was "I wish I had an experience like that!"

That awakening moment is deeply personal, yet it is available to anyone.

Part of me wanted him to, another part of me wished he didn't have to go through that kind of hell,

Another great observation of hell as a process, Heather.

and then another part of me felt like I was in a position as some sort of guru...........and I suddenly felt rather uncomfortable..........

Absolutely. I bet any guru worth their salt experiences the same self doubt of their capacity to "teach".

I knew that if I was to help guide someone else toward the mind's true nature, I better know what the heck I'm talking about, and I better be perfectly truthful. Such is my motivation to become a Bodhisattva.

The relational aspect in Buddhism is amplified here. Some misunderstand Buddhism as selfish. Those further on the path recognise teaching as something additive to their own liberation.

But that's just from my own experience, Oz. Others very well could have different motivations why they keep their experiences to themselves.

Loved your post:flirt:

 

[Random]

Since all the wannabe mystics were flexing their intellectual muscles so firmly...:flirt:

 

[blackout]

Since all the wannabe mystics were flexing their intellectual muscles so firmly...:flirt:

?????

 

[Willamena]

I'm not a mystic anymore. I'm "just me."

 

[blackout]

just for the record...

I never said I was a mystic.
I said that life is mystical...
full of mystique, mystery, majick.

We use words to try and communicate experience together.
Sometimes it is helpful to use a label in "describing" a "type" of people
who live out similar experiences.
Sometimes not.

I hope I do not detect a judgemental overgeneralization here.

I simply see people here sharing their own personal experiences...
and what they have seen in them over time.

We are ALL "just me's".