Natural selection (evolutionism) => Eugenics => Nazi Germany

[Father Heathen]

Don't disturb this man with facts, his mind is already made up! Let me know when you decide to open your eyes.

My irony meter just 'sploded.

 

[painted wolf]

We will never know if research is crushed time and time again.

What research is being crushed? And by whom?

No one is stopping Dembski from using the tens of thousands of dollars he earns from the Discovery Institute and from speaking engagements and book royalties from putting it into doing research.

He chooses not to do research. Hell I have no money and I'm working on putting an experiment together!

wa:do

 

[McBell]

My irony meter just 'sploded.

My hypocrisy meter just exploded in his other thread.
Good thing I turned my asininity and irony meters off before coming to this one...

 

[Scuba Pete]

The intolerance in this thread is AMAZING.

I would hope that we could stick with the OP. That entails the connection with Hitler's use of the concept of natural selection and eugenics to justify the holocaust.

I am not suggesting that Hitler was right, and obviously I abhor what happened and lost relatives in WWII. I am amazed though at how Science was used to justify man's inhumanity towards man, and you guys want to sweep it under the rug like it can't happen again.

Also, this is not about trying to ridicule ME for bringing up this subject. I doubt that the mods will do anything, as the popular kids always seem to get away with their meanness. If you can't stay on the topic, go play elsewhere.

 

[Father Heathen]

The intolerance in this thread is AMAZING.

The only thing that people have an intolerance for in this thread is denial, hypocrisy, willful ignorance, and self-deceit.

I am not suggesting that Hitler was right, and obviously I abhor what happened and lost relatives in WWII. I am amazed though at how Science was used to justify man's inhumanity towards man, and you guys want to sweep it under the rug like it can't happen again.

No one is doing that. It's simply has absolutely nothing to do with The Theory of Evolution itself. Regarding the scientific validity of ToE, it's entirely irrelevant. It's like saying Guillotines make the Theory of Gravity a sinister and vile thing. Ben Stein is a dishonest and disingenuous cretin who's *** should just stick to eye drop commercials.

 

[McBell]

The intolerance in this thread is AMAZING.

I would hope that we could stick with the OP. That entails the connection with Hitler's use of the concept of natural selection and eugenics to justify the holocaust.

I am not suggesting that Hitler was right, and obviously I abhor what happened and lost relatives in WWII. I am amazed though at how Science was used to justify man's inhumanity towards man, and you guys want to sweep it under the rug like it can't happen again.

Also, this is not about trying to ridicule ME for bringing up this subject. I doubt that the mods will do anything, as the popular kids always seem to get away with their meanness. If you can't stay on the topic, go play elsewhere.

Please see post #40.

 

[Alceste]

The intolerance in this thread is AMAZING.

I would hope that we could stick with the OP. That entails the connection with Hitler's use of the concept of natural selection and eugenics to justify the holocaust.

I am not suggesting that Hitler was right, and obviously I abhor what happened and lost relatives in WWII. I am amazed though at how Science was used to justify man's inhumanity towards man, and you guys want to sweep it under the rug like it can't happen again.

Also, this is not about trying to ridicule ME for bringing up this subject. I doubt that the mods will do anything, as the popular kids always seem to get away with their meanness. If you can't stay on the topic, go play elsewhere.

Hiya Pete, do you not see any discord between the phrase "natural selection" and the practice of man attempting to destroy a particular genetic thread he believes to be inferior?

The ideology of genocide is in stark conflict with the theory of evolution. If the Nazis understood the concept at all (i.e. that "natural selection" has to be "natural"), then their ideology and actions were rooted in fear of evolution - not the acceptance of it.

The Nazis were afraid that over the broad sweep of time their "race" (whatever that's supposed to mean) would inevitably be extinguished by natural selection if mankind did not step in, and as the emblem you posted states "self-direct" human evolution.

You might suggest that in order to fear something you need to believe in it, so the Nazis must have believed in evolution. Perhaps that's true, but a great many other nations that embraced Darwin's theories (i.e. his own country) have not become genocidal, which suggests there is no correlation between belief in natural selection and belief in eugenics.

To finish the job, we can also acknowledge that the practice of ethnic cleansing has been a fact of life since the dawn of civilization, and so has no conceivable relationship to evolutionary biology.

6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31

 

[fantome profane]

We will never know if research is crushed time and time again.

This is the second time you have made this accusation, and it is the second time you have failed to back it up.

Tell us about this research that is being crushed, or squashed. Tell us about these I.D. research projects that are being proposed and denied funding. Tell us, give us some examples, give us just one single example.


And you know what, if you can’t do that I will make it easier for you. Just give me a hypothetical example of I.D. research that some one could conceivable propose.

 

[Alceste]

This is the second time you have made this accusation, and it is the second time you have failed to back it up.

Tell us about this research that is being crushed, or squashed. Tell us about these I.D. research projects that are being proposed and denied funding. Tell us, give us some examples, give us just one single example.


And you know what, if you can’t do that I will make it easier for you. Just give me a hypothetical example of I.D. research that some one could conceivable propose.

I suppose you could try to create life by replicating the natural forces and chemicals known to be on earth when life is thought to have emerged in a lab, and seeing if the organic building blocks of life arose spontaneously... oh wait...

 

[Scuba Pete]

This is the second time you have made this accusation, and it is the second time you have failed to back it up.

Tell us about this research that is being crushed, or squashed. Tell us about these I.D. research projects that are being proposed and denied funding. Tell us, give us some examples, give us just one single example.


And you know what, if you can’t do that I will make it easier for you. Just give me a hypothetical example of I.D. research that some one could conceivable propose.

Start another thread, and I will be GLAD to hop onto it.

THIS thread is clearly NOT about ID. Reducing it to such is only a RED HERRING! May I politely ask that we get back TO the ORIGINAL TOPIC?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Hiya Pete, do you not see any discord between the phrase "natural selection" and the practice of man attempting to destroy a particular genetic thread he believes to be inferior?

Actually, I find the entire practice barbaric. However, it was Hitler's claim that MAN had successfully thwarted natural selection and somehow needed to compensate for it.

You might suggest that in order to fear something you need to believe in it, so the Nazis must have believed in evolution. Perhaps that's true, but a great many other nations that embraced Darwin's theories (i.e. his own country) have not become genocidal, which suggests there is no correlation between belief in natural selection and belief in eugenics.

History seems to say otherwise. However, lest I be painted differently, I have no issues with natural selection. I see it as a beautiful bio-feedback mechanism that has produced a host of species. I do believe in evolution and consider my self an evolutionist.

To finish the job, we can also acknowledge that the practice of ethnic cleansing has been a fact of life since the dawn of civilization, and so has no conceivable relationship to evolutionary biology.

I doubt that the ancients thought of it in those terms. As happens today, it's mostly about "Us vs Them" and we vilify that which we fight against. However, it also appears that Hitler used the term "natural selection" in his propaganda to justify the holocaust. It's not a pretty side of science, and unless we visit and revisit the abuses, they are BOUND to happen again.

 

[painted wolf]

We have/do visited and revisited it... and we have put into place ethics and review processes to prevent such things from happening again.

However saying Hitlers evils couldn't have happened without Darwin is patently false. Hitler took the preexisting hate and distrust of the Jews that had been causing violence since Martin Luther and used it as a road to power.

Science was a way of giving medieval hate a modern face.
Ever sense the industrial revolution people have been trying to legitimize crazy and dangerous things by calling them 'scientific'. Look at the modern anti-vaccination movement and Homeopathy.

wa:do

 

[Alceste]

Actually, I find the entire practice barbaric. However, it was Hitler's claim that MAN had successfully thwarted natural selection and somehow needed to compensate for it.

If this is true, then Hitler was not a believer in evolution or the theories of Darwin. The theory is quite clear there is no escaping natural selection for any organism, full stop.

History seems to say otherwise.

How? Why? Because the phrase "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest" might have been used in some Nazi propaganda? That only demonstrates the Darwin's work had gained enough widespread acceptance and awareness that the words themselves would have some form of meaning.

But even today, people who are ignorant of the theory but familiar with some of the more famous terminology misinterpret and misuse these phrases.

I doubt that the ancients thought of it in those terms. As happens today, it's mostly about "Us vs Them" and we vilify that which we fight against. However, it also appears that Hitler used the term "natural selection" in his propaganda to justify the holocaust. It's not a pretty side of science, and unless we visit and revisit the abuses, they are BOUND to happen again.

There is no doubt the ancients thought of it in these terms, if any of the biblical accounts are to be believed. In the passage I quoted from numbers, the slaughter of an entire village - men, women, children - and the keeping of the virgins as the spoils of war is a clear effort to eradicate a genetic line, even if the word "genocide" did not exist at the time. Neither, for that matter, did the words "us and them" exist. They were Hebrew. Or Aramaic. Or something. The point I was making is that genocide as an act, even if the word is new, is as old as we are. Words are meaningless, actions are what you need to be looking at.

 

[Scuba Pete]

We have/do visited and revisited it... and we have put into place ethics and review processes to prevent such things from happening again.

And it bears revisiting it again. Too many think that it just can't happen now. Just look at the denial in this thread.

However saying Hitlers evils couldn't have happened without Darwin is patently false.

Who said this? Not me. Not the film.

Science was a way of giving medieval hate a modern face.

Religion does the same only it gives it a moral face. It doesn't stop people from blaming religion. What we need to do, is to stop blaming the scapegoats for man's inhumanity. Neither religion or science are responsible for man's hate.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If this is true, then Hitler was not a believer in evolution or the theories of Darwin. The theory is quite clear there is no escaping natural selection for any organism, full stop.

I say BS. The discussion is about Natural Selection, and Hiler et al seems to think we subverted it in a way no other organism has. There is no "codified" theory for evolution. It changes from one scientist to another and from year to year as we uncover nuances and encounter paradigm shifts. This is what was believed BACK THEN, and even the US government bought into it as well.

 

[Sunstone]

I say BS. The discussion is about Natural Selection, and Hiler et al seems to think we subverted it in a way no other organism has. There is no "codified" theory for evolution. It changes from one scientist to another and from year to year as we uncover nuances and encounter paradigm shifts. This is what was believed BACK THEN, and even the US government bought into it as well.

But aren't you making up your facts as you go along, though?

 

[Sunstone]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the jokes section?

 

[Alceste]

We have/do visited and revisited it... and we have put into place ethics and review processes to prevent such things from happening again.

However saying Hitlers evils couldn't have happened without Darwin is patently false. Hitler took the preexisting hate and distrust of the Jews that had been causing violence since Martin Luther and used it as a road to power.
wa:do

Good point.

During the Reformation, in 1555, Pope Paul IV decreed that all Jews must be segregated into their own quarters (ghettos), and they were forbidden to leave their home during the night, were banned from all but the most strenuous occupations and had to wear a distinctive badge — a yellow hat. More than 4,700 Jews lived in the seven-acre Roman Jewish ghetto that was built in the Travestere section of the city (which still remains a Jewish neighborhood to this day) If any Jews wanted to rent houses or businesses outside the ghetto boundaries, permission was needed from the Cardinal Vicar. Jews could not own any property outside the ghetto. They were not allowed to study in higher education institutions or become lawyers, pharmacists, painters, politicians, notaries or architects. Jewish doctors were only allowed to treat Jewish patients. Jews were forced to pay an annual stipend to pay the salaries of the Catholic officials who supervised the Ghetto Finance Administration and the Jewish Community Organization; a stipend to pay for Christian missionaries who proselytized to the Jews and a yearly sum to the Cloister of the Converted. In return, the state helped with welfare work, but gave no money toward education or caring for the sick. These anti-Jewish laws were similar to those imposed by Nazi Germany on the Jews during World War II. link

Ferdinand and Isabella sought a homogeneous population, one possessing one religion and culture. In order to achieve homogeneity, Ferdinand and Isabella felt that they had to eradicate two groups from their lands: Judaizantes ( this term refers to those who observed or professed the Jewish faith; it is used as a synonym of Jews) and Moriscos (Moors). They were considered heretics and regarded as a discordant element in their kingdoms. Under the prompting of Isabella's confessor, Tomás de Torquemada, grandson of a Jewess, the Catholic majesties requested Pope Sixtus IV to establish the Holy Office in their kingdoms. The pope complied with the request in 1478, but withdrew his permission when he heard of the abuses that were occurring in Spain. link

Thoughts, Pete? To me it seems the Darwin - Nazi connection is without merit.

 

[fantome profane]

May I politely ask that we get back TO the ORIGINAL TOPIC?

You are the one who has brought this up in this thread, twice. If you stop making ridiculous off topic accusations I will stop challenging your off topic accusations.

Start another thread, and I will be GLAD to hop onto it.

Fine, here you go. Hop on.

I.D. research being crushed.

 

[logician]

We have/do visited and revisited it... and we have put into place ethics and review processes to prevent such things from happening again.

However saying Hitlers evils couldn't have happened without Darwin is patently false. Hitler took the preexisting hate and distrust of the Jews that had been causing violence since Martin Luther and used it as a road to power.

Science was a way of giving medieval hate a modern face.
Ever sense the industrial revolution people have been trying to legitimize crazy and dangerous things by calling them 'scientific'. Look at the modern anti-vaccination movement and Homeopathy.

wa:do

Martin Luther, a strong anti-semite, was Hitler's religious hero, this anti-semitism giving him a religious excuse (as well as others) to commit genocide against the Jews in his country and elsewhere.