Natural selection (evolutionism) => Eugenics => Nazi Germany

[Scuba Pete]

Martin Luther, a strong anti-semite, was Hitler's religious hero, this anti-semitism giving him a religious excuse (as well as others) to commit genocide against the Jews in his country and elsewhere.

So please, give us some quotes from Martin Luther that Hitler used to justify his blood lust. I would love to see how he used those.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It occurs to me that these pseudo scientists from the Third Reich, were really departing from any vestige of natural selection and delving into intelligent design. Whether one wants to debate the role of a God(s) in intelligent design, we have examples of it being tried right here. We currently call it bio-engineering.

 

[Magic Man]

This thread is hilarious.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Alceste]

So please, give us some quotes from Martin Luther that Hitler used to justify his blood lust. I would love to see how he used those.

There are quite a few he could have used:

There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses — namely, that God has struck [the Jews] with 'madness and blindness and confusion of mind.' So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite all their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property. In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they daily pray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin! [32]
On the Jews and Their Lies - Martin Luther

Do you have any thoughts on post 58, Pete? I am quite interested to see whether you would agree yet that the claim that the theory of evolution made the Germans anti-semitic has been soundly defeated.

If not, I can keep going For example, I could download Mein Kampf and count the references to God and religion, and compare that with the number of references to Darwin and evolution in order to establish whether Hitler was more influenced by Christianity or evolutionary biology... And I will! If you are not yet convinced! Here's a sample...

Over against all this, the völkisch concept of the world recognizes that the primordial racial elements are of the greatest significance for mankind. In principle, the State is looked upon only as a means to an end and this end is the conservation of the racial characteristics of mankind. Therefore on the völkisch principle we cannot admit that one race is equal to another. By recognizing that they are different, the völkisch concept separates mankind into races of superior and inferior quality. On the basis of this recognition it feels bound in conformity with the eternal Will that dominates the universe, to postulate the victory of the better and stronger and the subordination of the inferior and weaker.
Mein Kampf - Hitler

Whoopsie! :beach:

On the other hand, if you're already convinced, I can stop now. Please let me know.

 

[fantome profane]

It occurs to me that these pseudo scientists from the Third Reich, were really departing from any vestige of natural selection and delving into intelligent design. Whether one wants to debate the role of a God(s) in intelligent design, we have examples of it being tried right here. We currently call it bio-engineering.

Now you are getting into what I think are some of the major philosophical problems with Intelligent Design (setting aside all the scientific ones). One of the main philosophical problems with using evolution as the rational behind eugenics (again setting aside all the scientific problems) is that evolution makes no value statements concerning what “should” be or what we “ought” to do. On the other hand if we accept the premise that things have been intelligently designed then this opens the door to all kinds of interpretations concerning the intent behind the design and what we ought to do. Presumably if you believe that something is “God’s will” then we ought not to be trying to prevent it. And in fact such reasoning was often used in support of passive eugenics programs. (passive meaning allowing people to die by denying them medical treatment or aid rather than actively killing them). There were also many people involved in actively killing Jews (and others) during the holocaust who believed that they were doing “God’s work”, in other words fulfilling his “Design”.

 

[Scuba Pete]

There are quite a few he could have used:

But DID he?

Do you have any thoughts on post 58, Pete? I am quite interested to see whether you would agree yet that the claim that the theory of evolution made the Germans anti-semitic has been soundly defeated.

I have made no such claim and have repeatedly pointed out that blaming evolution for hatred is as silly as blaming religion for hatred. The movie made no such claim either.

in order to establish whether Hitler was more influenced by Christianity or evolutionary biology.

Does it matter? His hatred came from neither.

You can abuse science just as easily as you can abuse religion.

 

[Alceste]

But DID he? I have made no such claim and have repeatedly pointed out that blaming evolution for hatred is as silly as blaming religion for hatred. The movie made no such claim either. Does it matter? His hatred came from neither.

You can abuse science just as easily as you can abuse religion.

Hang on, now you've lost me. All that hard work was in response to this question in your OP:

Is the connection valid? Was the Holocaust perpetrated even in part upon the theories of natural selection? If so, what are we doing to prevent these types of abuses in the future?

I have demonstrated that anti-semitism existed hundreds of years before Darwin, in almost exactly the same form as that of the Nazis (see post 58). I have also demonstrated (to my own satisfaction anyway) that the most consistent and reliable source of treatises and policies regarding the suppression or elimination of the Jews is Christianity, included a particularly damning genocidal rant by Martin Luther himself, again, written hundreds of years before Darwin. I've demonstrated that Hitler himself argued that his racist policies were a method of imposing the "eternal Will that dominates the universe". I've even offered to inspect Mein Kampf to find out if any references to Darwin's theory of evolution exist, and if so, whether they outnumber the religious references found on nearly every page.

Do you want more, or do you concede that the clear and unambiguous answer to your question "Is the connection valid" is "No"?

(Stay down, man! Stay down!) Knockout

 

[Scuba Pete]

I concede nothing, and I disagree with your conclusion. I have seen the passages in Mien Kampf that indicate the use of Natural Selection as a need to thin the human herd. Why do you deny what's out in the open? Even if USED Martin Luther, then how does that obviate his use perceived problem of how man has bypassed natural selection?

Now, it you have where he quotes Luther directly, I would love to read it.

 

[Sunstone]

I concede nothing, and I disagree with your conclusion.

Thus digging for yourself a profoundly deep hole in your credibility.

 

[Alceste]

I concede nothing, and I disagree with your conclusion. I have seen the passages in Mien Kampf that indicate the use of Natural Selection as a need to thin the human herd. Why do you deny what's out in the open? Even if USED Martin Luther, then how does that obviate his use perceived problem of how man has bypassed natural selection?

Can you please indicate where? The entire book is posted online, so this should be quite a simple task. I'd prefer not to have to read the whole thing. It's disturbing, to say the least.

Now, it you have where he quotes Luther directly, I would love to read it.

I never said he did. I demonstrated Martin Luther wrote that the Christians had been negligent in their duty to exterminate the Jews, so if Hitler wanted something to quote, that would have been quite useful to him - more so than "origin of species", which makes no reference at all to human evolution or race. My impression, though, is that Hitler was a magalomaniac who did not quote or reference the ideas of anybody (including Darwin) in Mein Kampf, or anywhere else. I imagine that to do so would have detracted from his self-image as the leader and savior of the Aryan race.

 

[fantome profane]

For what it’s worth Hitler did refer to Luther as a great reformer.

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner.

I also concede that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. What I don’t concede is any relevance of that fact.

 

[Scuba Pete]

What I don’t concede is any relevance of that fact.[/FONT]

Why would it not be relevant? To what is not not relevant might be a better question.

 

[fantome profane]

Why would it not be relevant? To what is not not relevant might be a better question.

Ok, it is not relevant to the current state of evolutionary theory. It is not relevant to the scientific merit of evolution. It is not relevant to the scientific merit of Intelligent Design.

What do you think it is relevant to?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ok, it is not relevant to the current state of evolutionary theory. It is not relevant to the scientific merit of evolution. It is not relevant to the scientific merit of Intelligent Design.

What do you think it is relevant to?

I think it demonstrates the dichotomy of almost all thought and science.

For every possible good, there is an equal possibility of evil.

A good friend of mine from UF once postulated this, and I do believe it's true. It's important that we "Don't get fooled again".

 

[fantome profane]

I think it demonstrates the dichotomy of almost all thought and science.

For every possible good, there is an equal possibility of evil.

A good friend of mine from UF once postulated this, and I do believe it's true. It's important that we "Don't get fooled again".

Then please, don’t allow yourself to be conned by the Intelligent Design movement.

 

[Mister Emu]

I think this might be Pete's point: We should be constantly wary of misusing science again, we should be so arrogant to say "that will never happen now"... and it is true that some people like to think that modern science makes atheism the intelligent choice and that still believing in religion makes one less so, or "unreasonable" or "illogical"...

My apologies Pete, if I got this wrong, but that is what I got out of it... I don't think Pete was using "Expelled" to discredit the Theory of Evolutionary Origins or natural selection...

 

[Sententia]

I think this might be Pete's point: We should be constantly wary of misusing science again, we should be so arrogant to say "that will never happen now"... and it is true that some people like to think that modern science makes atheism the intelligent choice and that still believing in religion makes one less so, or "unreasonable" or "illogical"...

My apologies Pete, if I got this wrong, but that is what I got out of it... I don't think Pete was using "Expelled" to discredit the Theory of Evolutionary Origins or natural selection...

Has anyone actually studied the Holocaust and how it came about or are you just taking the revolting and debunked argument presented in Expelled.

The title of this thread basically states that evolution (Or evolutionism or whatever the heck that is) leads to Nazi Germany. Which is ridiculous and ignorant of modern science. (insulting, misleading, childish and lying also comes to mind)

Do you want to even explore how this film was actually recieved or fact check it? The guy was a game show host and known for calling Beuller... But your gonna accept his film as fact? He calls evolution darwinism and darwin was banned in nazi germany. Interesting... Evolution has evolved far beyond darwinism.

Ben Stein's Expelled: No Integrity Displayed: Scientific American
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/5277_52.htm
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/articles/2008/04/23/news/20080423-archive0.txt

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have made no such claim and have repeatedly pointed out that blaming evolution for hatred is as silly as blaming religion for hatred. The movie made no such claim either.

Then what exactly was your purpose for starting this thread? I'm finding it very hard to follow the point you're trying to make. From the OP, it did seem like you were out to somehow defame the theory of evolution by linking it with the Nazis; I hope you did mean something else, but it's far from clear what that might be.

I concede nothing, and I disagree with your conclusion. I have seen the passages in Mien Kampf that indicate the use of Natural Selection as a need to thin the human herd. Why do you deny what's out in the open?

By "using" natural selection, it ceases to be natural selection and becomes simply breeding in and out traits, which has been done by humans for millenia.

 

[Mister Emu]

BalanceFX,

I do not understand what any of that has to do with my post...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Then please, don’t allow yourself to be conned by the Intelligent Design movement.

Don't let yourself be conned into thinking that ID is all about countering natural selection. You are letting the Darwin extremists do your thinking for you, and it's nothing short of hysteria.