Natural selection (evolutionism) => Eugenics => Nazi Germany

[Scuba Pete]

If you haven't seen Ben Stein's EXpelled: No Intelligence Allowed!, go watch it BEFORE you participate in this thread. Please. You won't have the same background as the rest of us who have seen it.

In the movie, Ben questions Academia's quest to eliminate theism at all costs and how that seems to generate from Darwinists. It's an amazing look at the social and academic bigotry that has so engulfed America.

Towards the end, it is suggested that while Hitler's bigotry against Jews and Gypsies did not originate from the theory of Natural Selection, his bigotry was given it's most persuasive arguments via Natural Selection and the concept of the Superior Race.

Is the connection valid? Was the Holocaust perpetrated even in part upon the theories of natural selection? If so, what are we doing to prevent these types of abuses in the future?

Yes, there were a ton of other fallacies presented by Mr Stein, and his quotes by Dawkins were AMAZING to listen to, for those who think he has no anti-God agenda. But this thread is JUST about the link between the theory of Natural Selection and the attempted genocide that we refer to as a the Holocaust.

 

[Caladan]

If you haven't seen Ben Stiller's EXpelled: No Intelligence Allowed!

Just giving you heads up, I think you meant to type Ben Stein. Expelled was directed by Nathan Frankowski btw.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Thanks for the quick catch! I blame the drugs I am on for a ripped Achilles Tendon.

 

[Caladan]

Thanks for the quick catch! I blame the drugs I am on for a ripped Achilles Tendon.

Ah :yes: sorry to hear about that, I hope your recovery would be as smooth as possible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you haven't seen Ben Stein's EXpelled: No Intelligence Allowed!, go watch it BEFORE you participate in this thread. Please. You won't have the same background as the rest of us who have seen it.

Unfortunately, I can't. What I've heard about it is enough that I don't want to support the producers by renting or buying it, and I have a thing against pirating movies, so I don't plan to watch it illicitly online somewhere. If my local library gets a copy, I may borrow it, but I'm not holding my breath that they will. I hope you don't mind me participating, because you do raise one point that I feel is very important to address:

Towards the end, it is suggested that while Hitler's bigotry against Jews and Gypsies did not originate from the theory of Natural Selection, his bigotry was given it's most persuasive arguments via Natural Selection and the concept of the Superior Race.

Is the connection valid? Was the Holocaust perpetrated even in part upon the theories of natural selection? If so, what are we doing to prevent these types of abuses in the future?

Connecting eugenics and the Holocaust to evolution is not valid. Besides the fact that there's no defensible way to claim that "being German" is a better adaptation than "being Jewish", in fact, trying to make this connection is completely self-contradictory:

- individuals that are better adapted to their environments tend to be more successful (in terms of survival and reproduction) than less well adapted individuals.
- therefore, I must deny individuals who I consider to be less well adapted the ability to either survive or reproduce.

IOW, in more general terms:

- X happens all on its own.
- therefore, I have duty to make X (or what I consider to be X) happen.

If you understand what evolution actually says, once you take it as correct, any possible motivation for eugenics disappears.

Now... I'm pretty sure we've gone over this "does evolution imply eugenics?" question in other threads before, so I'll give an analogy that will hopefully make my point more clear this time:

Switch disciplines; instead of Darwin's study of evolutionary theory, consider Bernoulli's study of fluids. What would you say to someone who said this:

- Bernoulli's Law tells us that fluids will tend to flow downhill without any external intervention at all.
- Therefore, we have a moral obligation to take the water in this pond at the top of this hill, pump it into trucks, drive it down the hill and pump it into that lake on the valley floor.

This uses the exact same logic as eugenics, but hopefully you can see that whoever suggested this would be mad for several reasons:

- there's no moral imperitive. Science tells us how things behave, not how they should be. Scientific facts and theories inform our judgements, but they don't dictate our morality. They can tell you "if you do X, the result will be Y", but it's up to us to decide whether Y is good or bad.
- assuming water does flow downhill, there's no need to truck the water down the mountainside. If the person's assessment of Bernoulli is correct, then no intervention is required at all.
- the fact that there's a pond sitting at the top of the hill in the first place indicates that his assessment probably is incorrect, or at least there's more to it than what he's figured out.


In truth, the supporters of eugenics and the Holocaust latched onto evolution fallaciously (to the extent that they did latch onto it; I'm not sure how much Hitler cited Darwin in support for his 'final solution'). Evolution was the excuse, not the reason... which would make blaming Darwin for the Holocaust rather like blaming Marconi for the incident (immortalized in song "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" by R.E.M.) in which Dan Rather got beat up by a guy who was convinced that Rather knew the secret of the transmitters implanted in his head broadcasting his thoughts.

So, short version: no, natural selection is not any sort of root cause for eugenics or the Holocaust, because once you actually understand what natural selection is and how it works, you realize that the reasoning for both of those things is incorrect.

 

[painted wolf]

Blatant misrepresentation and fear mongering.

Charles Darwin was strongly anti-Eugenics.
Corespondence between Francis Galton and Charles Darwin

In fact the biggest promoters of Eugenics have been church leaders... not scientists.
Indeed the United Methodist Church passed a resolution to specifically apologize for it's role in the US Eugenics movement.
Petition Text

I suggest this book as well. Amazon.com: Preaching Eugenics: Religious Leaders and the American Eugenics Movement: Christine Rosen: Books

Pete you are smarter than this... Please visit Expelled Exposed and get the truth behind this movies lies.

Expelled Exposed: Why Expelled Flunks » Hitler & Eugenics

wa:do

 

[Scuba Pete]

Unfortunately, I can't. What I've heard about it is enough

It's hard to accuse you of having a closed mind when you come right out and admit it!

Besides the fact that there's no defensible way to claim that "being German" is a better adaptation than "being Jewish", in fact, trying to make this connection is completely self-contradictory:

Wait? Are you trying to re-write history here? Are you saying Hitler had no quest to establish the master race? I am not asking if he made sense, I am asking if he USED the science to justify committing an atrocity.

If you understand what evolution actually says, once you take it as correct, any possible motivation for eugenics disappears.

That is a non sequitur. Just look at their emblem.

In truth, the supporters of eugenics and the Holocaust latched onto evolution fallaciously (to the extent that they did latch onto it; I'm not sure how much Hitler cited Darwin in support for his 'final solution'). Evolution was the excuse, not the reason...

Which is what I have pointed out for many wars that appear to be religious. But, whether they were right or not, makes no difference. Did they USE IT?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Blatant misrepresentation and fear mongering.

How? By whom?

Charles Darwin was strongly anti-Eugenics.
Corespondence between Francis Galton and Charles Darwin

I didn't see the reference there, but I would hope that he would oppose this idea.

In fact the biggest promoters of Eugenics have been church leaders... not scientists.

It appears we read different history books. Scientists pushed this idea and tried to get churches to cooperate: especially those who ran help missions. Don't believe me? Check out Wikipedia's treatise on the subject. Eugenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Unfortunately, it's not biased towards scientists and against religion, so you may reject it outright.

Indeed the United Methodist Church passed a resolution to specifically apologize for it's role in the US Eugenics movement.

As all those who participated in it should have done, EVEN IF that was merely in the spirit of cooperation with scientists whom they trusted.

Pete you are smarter than this... Please visit Expelled Exposed and get the truth behind this movies lies.

Expelled Exposed: Why Expelled Flunks » Hitler & Eugenics

My friend... that site is created and run by the very people Ben set out to expose. I think I trust Stein in this one.

 

[fantome profane]

In the movie, Ben questions Academia's quest to eliminate theism at all costs and how that seems to generate from Darwinists. It's an amazing look at the social and academic bigotry that has so engulfed America.

This movie does it’s best to create the false impression that science is out to destroy theism. In fact science does not even deal with the question of “God”, that is not a scientific question. This movie creates this false impression through selective interviews, quote mines, and blatant appeals to emotion. They deliberately made the choice not to interview people like Ken Miller, FrancisCollins, Francisco Ayala or acknowlege the many biological scientists who fully support the theory of evolution and also believe in a personal “God”. Instead they choose only to interview avowed atheists in the attempt to create this false impression that science is against religion. It is just not true.

Towards the end, it is suggested that while Hitler's bigotry against Jews and Gypsies did not originate from the theory of Natural Selection, his bigotry was given it's most persuasive arguments via Natural Selection and the concept of the Superior Race.

I think that there is a link between Darwinism and Nazism and Ben Stein and others are quite correct to point this out. I think we would do well to acknowledge it and deal with it.

The fact however is that the science for eugenics in the human population just doesn’t work. And this is one reason I think that scientific education is so important. It is very easy for leaders, politicians and regular people to misunderstand scientific concepts and twist them for their own purposes.

But the major problem with the argument that this movie makes is that it is completely irrelevant. As terrible and tragic as the events in Nazi Germany were they do not make the science of evolution any less true. And no matter how horrific they were they do not add any scientific credence to Intelligent Design.

As I have said before, if Intelligent Design proponents intend to win a scientific argument first they have to make a scientific argument. This kind of emotional appeal doesn’t even begin

Yes, there were a ton of other fallacies presented by Mr Stein, and his quotes by Dawkins were AMAZING to listen to,

Selective quote mining is not impressive, nor is it new to the creationists movement.

 

[Sunstone]

I think I trust Stein in this one.

This thread is hilarious.

 

[Scuba Pete]

This movie does it’s best to create the false impression that science is out to destroy theism.

That's done right here on RF. Start a question about God, and you will have the atheistic evangelists in there telling us how stupid we are for believing in God. They often use evolution to bolster their claim. Perhaps Mr Stein is right?

In fact science does not even deal with the question of “God”, that is not a scientific question.

Yet, so many atheists fallaciously USE science to try and disprove God.

Instead they choose only to interview avowed atheists in the attempt to create this false impression that science is against religion. It is just not true.

You mean like Dawkins telling us that his "God Delusion" is a full frontal attack on religion? That's the whole point of the movie. It's NOT to question the fact of evolution, but to show how a few unprincipled scientists are using it as a club to further their views on atheism.

I think that there is a link between Darwinism and Nazism and Ben Stein and others are quite correct to point this out. I think we would do well to acknowledge it and deal with it.

While others are telling me that I am a bigot for showing this connection.

The fact however is that the science for eugenics in the human population just doesn’t work. And this is one reason I think that scientific education is so important. It is very easy for leaders, politicians and regular people to misunderstand scientific concepts and twist them for their own purposes.

These include leaders of Science.

But the major problem with the argument that this movie makes is that it is completely irrelevant. As terrible and tragic as the events in Nazi Germany were they do not make the science of evolution any less true.

Nor was the movie anti-evolution in it's scope. It was anti-totalitarianism. It's all about academic FREEDOM and not having to hold to a specific dogma.

 

[fantome profane]

It was anti-totalitarianism. It's all about academic FREEDOM and not having to hold to a specific dogma.

It is about a completely ridiculous conspiracy theory that science is trying to block Intelligent Design. I.D. has failed to make any headway into the scientific community because I.D. has no scientific merit. The only hope that the Intelligent Design movement has now is to convince people that the reason for it’s failure is not because it is inherently flawed as a science but because of some big science conspiracy. It is a con job, don’t fall for it!

 

[Sunstone]

It is a con job, don’t fall for it!

Too late! I already did!

 

[fantome profane]

Too late!

In fact I have come to respect Scuba Pete for his intelligence and integrity. If he chooses to apply those traits here then it is not too late.

 

[Scuba Pete]

In fact I have come to respect Scuba Pete for his intelligence and integrity. If he chooses to apply those traits here then it is not too late.

Thanks... I know that my intelligence is suspected by MANY here, simply because I do believe in God.

I have also seen the bigotry on these forums. Those who claim that I hate Dawkins, though I have never met the man or threatened him in any way. But since I disagree with his as well as their premise of atheism, I am marginalized and ostracized as someone who hates others. You know what? That's made me MORE outspoken than ever, and there are many here who DON'T like me for that very reason!

Simply put, I don't see the accusations here as being unreasonable. It's not that I am a conspiracy theorist (I surely don't think the US caused 9/11), but I see a very consistent pattern of intolerance towards people who believe in God. It's not a stretch of the imagination to accept this especially when no one has provided an ulterior motive for Stein.

 

[Sunstone]

In fact I have come to respect Scuba Pete for his intelligence and integrity. If he chooses to apply those traits here then it is not too late.

I've edited my comment to clarify the spirit in which it was made. As it stood, it looked more like a dig at Pete than I intended it to be.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I've edited my comment to clarify the spirit in which it was made. As it stood, it looked more like a dig at Pete than I intended it to be.

Thanks for clarity on that. I was disturbed by it.

 

[painted wolf]

It appears we read different history books. Scientists pushed this idea and tried to get churches to cooperate: especially those who ran help missions. Don't believe me? Check out Wikipedia's treatise on the subject. Eugenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Unfortunately, it's not biased towards scientists and against religion, so you may reject it outright.

While I would hardly credit Wikipedia as a history book....
Frankly I'm not anti-religion, and I don't think that mentioning that Eugenics is more complicated than placing the blame on one group is anti-religion.
White washing the role of the religious institutions does more harm than accepting that they were involved.
I'll take the United Methodist Church's words over Wiki's

The United Methodist General Conference formally apologizes for Methodist leaders and Methodist bodies who in the past supported eugenics as sound science and sound theology. We lament the ways eugenics was used to justify the sterilization of persons deemed less worthy. We lament that Methodist support of eugenics policies was used to keep persons of different races from marrying and forming legally recognized families. We are especially grieved that the politics of eugenics led to the extermination of millions of people by the Nazi government and continues today as “ethnic cleansing” around the world.

Petition Text

Yes there were scientists who were pro-eugenics... there were just as many that were against it. People chose the science they wanted to back without looking at the evidence. They twisted science to make their sick case.

The book "Mismeasure of Man" details how the science was twisted and the tactics used. I can't recommend this book enough. If you don't have a copy I'd gladly send you mine to read.
Amazon.com: The Mismeasure of Man: Stephen Jay Gould: Books

Let's not forget it was science that led the anti-eugenics cause as well.

My friend... that site is created and run by the very people Ben set out to expose. I think I trust Stein in this one.

Stein is just a mouthpiece reading a script.

wa:do

 

[Rough_ER]

Primitive forms of eugenics existed long before Darwin presented his theory in 1859. The Spartans famously selected only the strongest and healthiest babies, killing the "puny" ones and throwing them into a chasm on Mount Taygetus. Furthermore, natural selection is not at all what eugenics reflects. Eugenics is selection by man, and is thus "artificial", the kind that led to the production of dog breeds from the ancestral canine. I'm not well-read on this but I do know that Hitler never once mentions "natural selection" in Mein Kampf. I'll probably be cut down for this but I've never quite understood the so-called connection between natural selection and eugenics. Seems eugenics is just plain old selective breeding applied rather vulgarly to humans.

 

[Sunstone]

I think the Theory of Evolution provides grounds to argue against eugenics. After all, eugenics would most likely reduce the genetic diversity of a species, and the Theory tells us how that could lead to the extinction of the species sans any daughter species.