Natural/Unnatural

[Fluffy]

What are these 2 things? Are either of them wrong or sinful? Why?​

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I ask these questions because many people ask whether something is natural or not, including quite a few people over the last few days in threads on this board, and yet I don't really understand exactly what people mean by them.​

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Additionally, I don't understand why many people make the leap from something being unnatural to it being wrong. I can see a difference between the 2 terms, just not in terms of morality so why is it that people do this?​

 

[cardero]

Anything that goes against the design, PURPOSE or NATURE of the Universe is UNNATURAL. There is an energy, a force, I have created that does nothing but elect what is NATURAL and UNNATURAL. There are laws and practices in the Universe, as YOU
K(NOW), that must work and flow in a certain way. The reason for this is to maintain a high degree of order or organization. I created this "program" to maintain and regulate itself. I created this to perfection. By perfection, I mean it was created to work THIS WAY because there was NO OTHER WAY it could work and still BE practical and efficient.



Many functions in your society mirror the intentions of NATURE that needed to BE created so everything could operate in unison with the ONE. A simple example of this would BE traffic lights. The concept of traffic lights was created by humans for the PURPOSE of regulating and handling traffic orderly and efficiently. Nobody stands around to watch to see if the traffic lights are doing their job unless they malfunction. Although traffic lights do not judge, they still have a job to perform.



I do not judge what is UNNATURAL. NATURE does not judge UNNATURABILITY. That is part of its PURPOSE. By judging I mean deeming what is worthy and what is unworthy. NATURE does not exact punishment nor seek retribution. NATURE can BE sidestepped but it cannot BE fooled. When it is bypassed, it works harder to step up production to return things to a NATURAL order.



Try not to confuse this with sinful or unholy, which are human-made words. UNNATURAL in this context means it goes against NATURE.


Hello It's Me: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Homosexuality
Pages: 59-60

 

[Fluffy]

Are you suggesting that nature should not have a morality attached to it at all? That it is basically amoral?

By perfection, I mean it was created to work THIS WAY because there was NO OTHER WAY it could work and still BE practical and efficient.

The idea that the driving force behind nature should be efficiency rather than morality seems far more logical. It makes me wonder exactly where this blurring occured since I do suggest that something unnatural is wrong, just that this is commonly suggested.

 

[cardero]

Fluffy writes:Are you suggesting that nature should not have a morality attached to it at all? That it is basically amoral?

The chapter that this conversation came from was on homosexuality though I think there are many other examples that we could apply what is NATURAL and what is UNNATURAL. For example in the same chapter it was explained to me that sex of a man and a woman was NATURAL because it was the only way to conceive a child NATURALLY. Sex between same sexes (or animals) was considered UNNATURAL because the original “design” of intercourse was to reproduce offspring. Neither of them is wrong or right. NATURE does not judge what is right or wrong. Society does.

 

[Fluffy]

Although the original design of intercourse was to produce offspring, it is possible that later adaptions could have been added. For example homosexuality could be nature's way of controlling population levels.

The orginal purpose of artificial insemination was to allow the production of offspring via some other method than intercouse. Is this not just as natural as intercourse?

 

[cardero]

Although the original design of intercourse was to produce offspring, it is possible that later adaptions could have been added. For example homosexuality could be nature's way of controlling population levels.

Or it could BE NATURE's way of UNNATURALLY controlling population levels. I still think homosexuality is a preference of the individual. Society has thoughtfully considered many ways of bypassing NATURE, for example using birth control devices. NATURE doesn’t take offense to this.

Fluffy writes: The orginal purpose of artificial insemination was to allow the production of offspring via some other method than intercouse. Is this not just as natural as intercourse?

Sure, however the sperm fertilizes the egg is the NATURAL part. A man masturbating alone with no use of the seed is UNNATURAL. Both are not under the jurisdiction of right or wrong.

 

[Sunstone]

Merely because something is natural does not mean that it is right. Wars are natural to our species, but that doesn't make wars right. On the other hand, people often claim that something, such as homosexuality, is unnatural and therefore wrong. In my opinion, it helps in such instances to point out that homosexuality is natural and that the premiss on which they base their conclusion that it is wrong is unfounded.

 

[cardero]

Merely because something is natural does not mean that it is right. Wars are natural to our species, but that doesn't make wars right. On the other hand, people often claim that something, such as homosexuality, is unnatural and therefore wrong. In my opinion, it helps in such instances to point out that homosexuality is natural and that the premiss on which they base their conclusion that it is wrong is unfounded.

Homosexuality can still be UNNATURAL and still not be considered right or wrong. It took me awhile to shed these worldly views as well. Humans have a tendency to want to place ideas into boxes that they can identify with. For example everything that is NATURAL has to go into the “right” box and everything that is UNNATURAL must belong in the “wrong” box. NATURE does not have such a system of sorting. NATURE has just been given functions to perform, like computer programs.



Though I had just touched on this subject with GOD I found it fascinating and it is still an area where I could use a lot more understanding. The basic of what is NATURAL and UNNATURAL I UNDERSTAND. That there is no wrong or right in what is NATURAL or UNNATURAL. That part I got and can deal with. The other part that I have to come to terms with is figuring out how things were designed to BE NATURAL and UNNATURAL in the first place.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree, Carrdero. The question of whether something is natural or unnatural is completely separate from the question of whether it is right or wrong.

 

[cardero]

I agree, Carrdero. The question of whether something is natural or unnatural is completely separate from the question of whether it is right or wrong.

Now if somebody can help me UNDERSTAND NATURE I can start UNDERSTANDING what NATURAL and UNNATURAL means. And you have to admit, RF definately has many sincere NATURE lovers on this site.

 

[cvipertooth]

flying a plane and breaking gravity is unnatural, but many people do it every day. I'm almost sure there is noone out there that believes flying is a sin, but If you do i suggest not doing it. It comes down to whatever you feel. If something feels natural do it and if it feels unnatural dont do it, as long as that feeling does not lead to some kinda of criminal activity.

 

[Master Vigil]

The only thing unnatural is what happens outside of nature. Since everything we do is in nature (this empirical universe), nothing we do is unnatural. What some see as unnatural is just simply different. It may not be as easy, or not as usual and normal. But nothing that happens in nature is unnatural.

 

[retrorich]

Although the original design of intercourse was to produce offspring, it is possible that later adaptions could have been added. For example homosexuality could be nature's way of controlling population levels.

The orginal purpose of artificial insemination was to allow the production of offspring via some other method than intercouse. Is this not just as natural as intercourse?

Excellent points! Frubals to you.

 

[Fluffy]

The only thing unnatural is what happens outside of nature. Since everything we do is in nature (this empirical universe), nothing we do is unnatural. What some see as unnatural is just simply different. It may not be as easy, or not as usual and normal. But nothing that happens in nature is unnatural.

This is basically the stage that I have reached in my way of thinking. Surely there is no line between what is nature and what isn't. Saying something is unnatural is just a way of distancing man from nature in the same way that people don't normally refer to humans as animals for example. Therefore everything is natural.

 

[anders]

Although the original design of intercourse was to produce offspring,

I disagree. One early set of features, and the tendency to use it, produced offspring. Thus, its genetics were favoured and propagated. There is no need to speak of design, or even less purpose.

Natural is something occurring in nature. Eating, sleeping, mating, killing one's fellow beasts... Unnatural is believing in invisible powers or beings. Morality is something quite different.

 

[Master Vigil]

Believing in something unnatural is quite natural. If something unnatural exists? Well thats a different question. But if it wasn't natural, no one would believe in something unnatural. But since it does happen ALOT in nature. I think its is completely natural.

 

[Fluffy]

I disagree. One early set of features, and the tendency to use it, produced offspring. Thus, its genetics were favoured and propagated. There is no need to speak of design, or even less purpose.

Yeah I think I agree with that actually, I am assuming purpose and design where this is totally unnecessary.

Natural is something occurring in nature. Eating, sleeping, mating, killing one's fellow beasts... Unnatural is believing in invisible powers or beings. Morality is something quite different.

If invisible creatures existed then this would be natural since they would have to occur in nature. Invisible powers DO exist... look up gravity for a really interesting discussion on that one .

 

[Fluffy]

Resurrecting this thread. I didn't want to post a new one since this one wasn't very successful. People continue to use these terms and yet fail to respond to the inherent problems in using them. I thought I would give it a bump to see if anyone who missed it the first time or is new to join has anything to say on the subject .

 

[Darkdale]

Merely because something is natural does not mean that it is right. Wars are natural to our species, but that doesn't make wars right. On the other hand, people often claim that something, such as homosexuality, is unnatural and therefore wrong. In my opinion, it helps in such instances to point out that homosexuality is natural and that the premiss on which they base their conclusion that it is wrong is unfounded.

I agree with this completely. Though, I don't believe anything is unnatural. Some things occur less often than others, but it doesn't make one any more natural in essence.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

flying a plane and breaking gravity is unnatural, but many people do it every day. I'm almost sure there is noone out there that believes flying is a sin, but If you do i suggest not doing it. It comes down to whatever you feel. If something feels natural do it and if it feels unnatural dont do it, as long as that feeling does not lead to some kinda of criminal activity.

Flying a plane doesn't break gravity...I mean, if the standard for unnatural is "does not follow the laws of the universe," then you really can't have an unnatural thing without some sort of supernatural intereference.

So...what exactly is natural, anyway?