That's it? Who came over and started your country...Catholics. Remember Christmas.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
NBC and the "Pledge of Allegiance"
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
Many Sages One Truth
Active Member
Please prove that the US was founded as a Catholic/Christian nation, if you would. Secondly, I don't see how showing respect for a flag shows respect for men and women dying.
Draka
Wonder Woman
The people who colonized here were fleeing religious oppression. The people who actually formed our government and wrote our founding documents were secularist deists. It was formed to be specifically NOT affiliated with any one religion as the people who came here and founded this country had already seen how badly that kind of set up worked.
Oh...and don't discuss Christmas with a Pagan. We most likely know much more about your traditions and why you have them than you do.
Amill
Apikoros
Yea those men and women who stood up to the Nazis in Germany were so disrespectful!
Even if you think my example is an extreme case where your paragraph wouldn't apply it still shows that pledging blind allegiance to a country is still a bit silly.
It is a nation that celebrates all the Catholic holidays. I don't need to say anymore. Politics is wrapped up in Judea Christian values because that is the history. And what do you think burning the flag is all about? The opposite is true for having allegiance to it. It's about showing and having respect.
blackout
Violet.
Ritualistic indoctrination is not just limited to religion. :cover:
I agree with what you said- mostly.
My children are a "group"
who have my full allegiance,
(ie. loyalty and comittment)
as children.
They have "earned" it in no way
other than simply being my children.
As adults though,
they could destroy my allegiance to them.
Thus I would not pledge allegiance even to my children.
It sounds silly to even suggest.
Why would a person even do such a thing?
Yet they will do this with a partner.
People seem to like pledges and vows.
Maybe it creates some illusion of security?
I do see traditional marriage as a pledge of allegiance, to a person.
(the whole "till (literal) death do you part" thing)
But sometimes people change...
and they are not really that person you once pledged yourSelf to,
or you are not really that same person who once made that pledge,
so....
the ritual of marriage, becomes the rite of divorce.
I see the pledge of allegiance to the flag.. etc etc
as little more than a coersive emotional appeal, to an indoctrination.
And then beyond that,
people try to drag 'god' into the red, white, and blue,
just like they do
into the wedding white.
How many non-religious "get married" in a church
just for the sake of the "all necesssary" ritualistic atmosphere and pomp.
(especially the women)
And perhaps more often so, for the rest of the family.
(who NEED it to be that way so badly,
they will ruin future relations over it.)
We are indoctrinated with SO many rituals.
The lack of impression mass ritual/s have on me
clearly puts me in the minority.
I definately feel like an outsider
to a great deal of what goes on around me.
Somehow the idea of editing out "under god"
effects me as non emotionally
as the idea of editing out the entire pledge.
Truthfully,
I see these things
as the "sideshows" of life.
I prefer being a spectator.
Last edited:
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
The U.S. is a secular nation with no official religion and has a diverse population whom the government is supposed to all equally represent, just as the founding fathers intended. Also, burning the flag is free speech, one of the very freedoms that define America.
Draka
Wonder Woman
Hmm, I don't seem to see that at all. Let's take a looksie shall we?
Catholic holidays:
- Mary, Mother of God (Saturday, January 1, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation (abrogated because it falls on a Saturday)
- Ash Wednesday (Wednesday, March 9, 2011)
- Palm Sunday (Sunday, April 17, 2011)
- Holy Thursday (Thursday, April 21, 2011)
- Good Friday (Friday, April 22, 2011)
- Holy Saturday (Saturday, April 23, 2011)
- Easter Sunday (Sunday, April 24, 2011)
- Divine Mercy Sunday (Sunday, May 1, 2011)
- Ascension (Thursday, June 2, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation (transferred to Sunday, June 5, 2011 in most dioceses of the United States; see Is Ascension a Holy Day of Obligation? for more details)
- Pentecost Sunday (Sunday, June 12, 2011)
- Trinity Sunday (Sunday, June 19, 2011)
- Corpus Christi (Thursday, June 23, 2011; transferred to Sunday, June 26, 2011)
- Assumption of Mary (Monday, August 15, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation (abrogated because it falls on a Monday)
- All Saints Day (Tuesday, November 1, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation
- First Sunday of Advent (Sunday, November 27, 2011)
Complete Advent schedule
- Immaculate Conception (Thursday, December 8, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation
- Christmas (Sunday, December 25, 2011)
Holy Day of Obligation
Federal holidays:
Friday, December 31, 2010* New Years Day
Monday, January 17 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 21** Washingtons Birthday
Monday, May 30 Memorial Day
Monday, July 4 Independence Day
Monday, September 5 Labor Day
Monday, October 10 Columbus Day
Friday, November 11 Veterans Day
Thursday, November 24 Thanksgiving Day
Monday, December 26*** Christmas Day
Nope...just not seeing what you claim at all.
Many Sages One Truth
Active Member
Hate to tell you, but the founders of America were mostly Deists, and a couple of very liberal Christians. That's a farcry from what you're claiming. The reason America has all these holidays is as secular customs carried over from Europe, but most in America do not keep this holidays for any religious significance.
As for burning the flag, it's an act of extremism. That still doesn't mean I'm going to pledge a flag. It's a piece of cloth, sorry if that offends.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
The history of this country was founded by a bunch of guys who wanted to break away from the economic umbrella of the British empire.
As well, besides a handful of Puritans no one else in the colonies actually liked, the colonies were founded by business ventures by those who didn't come over here who sent merchant class people with a boatload of the poor to establish economic centers.
The nation doesn't celebrate all the Catholic Holidays. Christmas, as it is practiced today and that the Puritans tried to do away with, is not a Catholic holiday. It's a capitalist holiday with remnants of a mixture of Christian and pre-Christian Celtic traditions because the folk, folk being the lower classes, kept their traditions when they came over.
Need I even mention the hullabaloo over Kennedy's election nearly 200 years prior to the establishment of the U.S. over his being a Catholic!
edit: Let's just face it. You don't have the first clue of what you are talking about. Hello, the nature or propaganda that is shrouded in such things as allegiance pledges.
double edit: And to pile on. Exactly what do you think the early of history of Christianity entails. Here's a young Jew proclaiming to be the son of God in an era when a foreign occupier, Rome, is in the Jewish lands basically laying down a foreign law, foreign culture and destroying temples. Does Joshua say, "Hey, rise up Jews in the name of nationalism in the name of God.". No. Everyone in this country with a basic cultural education knows that the story is that Joshua said let Rome have what they will, did not fight for a nationalist state and told people to concern themselves with the Kingdom of Heaven rather than a kingdom on Earth. In other words, the primacy of God and worship towards God was more important than any State be it a nationalist state or that of a foreign occupier. Not really something the Revolutionaries rallied themselves behind in throwing out the crown but guess what......they didn't according to all the historical documents. Sure, Sam Adams (got a beer named after him) and a few others might have felt otherwise but those whose intellect shaped this nation, including a man who should be known for more than he is who was a devout Episcopalian and fought against any notion of tying the U.S. to God, was James Monroe.
third edit: Arf! Arf! Aaaaaarrrghhh!
Last edited:
We have many holidays, some Cathollic, some Jewish, some secular. We don't all celebrate every one.
We also have a diversity of values, many of which pre-date Christianity. So this is clearly not a Catholic country.
Burning the flag is how some express their opposition to some of the country's policies. This is our right.
You're expecting that we should be something other than who we are. That won't happen.
Last edited:
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Right, it does seem that the more outspoken someone is about their patriotism the less they know about the actual history of their country. Likewise the more outspoken someone is about their religion, the less knowledgeable of their religion they actually are.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
UMMMM. Nope. Hadn't heard. Was that this past weekend or last year? And was that pro gold or the Pres and Boener? Though, since I don't care for golf, seeing as how it so boring and droll, that I am left wondering who slipped me the Clozapine into my tea every time it is on the tube.
The need for heads to roll seems to be a bit extreme to me though
blackout
Violet.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Pretty much.
Gunny
Semper Fi
Excellent post, sir. I'm glad someone gets it. Thank you for being appreciative of our country and our sacrifices.
Rep for you my good man.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I've got no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance per se. I'm an American, I love the principles upon which this country was founded, and I'm happy to state my allegiance to the USA as a citizen thereof, and to salute the national flag.
But I believe in the separation of religion and state. Mentions of God have no place in the national oath of a secular country. It should never have been added in the '50s, and it should be excised ASAP. (I'm also in favor of such mentions being removed from the currency, and from public edifices, etc.)
I am a religious person. Religion, in fact, is not only something I cherish, it is my profession-- my bread and butter. But I am quite aware that part of what protects my freedom to believe and practice as I please in this country is the freedom of others to believe and practice as they please, even when it is incompatible with what I believe, or contradictory to it-- even when that belief is atheism. The only way to ensure that we all have room for our own religions, or lack thereof, is for religion to keep clear of American government and politics. It belongs purely in the private sector.
But I believe in the separation of religion and state. Mentions of God have no place in the national oath of a secular country. It should never have been added in the '50s, and it should be excised ASAP. (I'm also in favor of such mentions being removed from the currency, and from public edifices, etc.)
I am a religious person. Religion, in fact, is not only something I cherish, it is my profession-- my bread and butter. But I am quite aware that part of what protects my freedom to believe and practice as I please in this country is the freedom of others to believe and practice as they please, even when it is incompatible with what I believe, or contradictory to it-- even when that belief is atheism. The only way to ensure that we all have room for our own religions, or lack thereof, is for religion to keep clear of American government and politics. It belongs purely in the private sector.
How many Catholic holidays are mentioned here and you still don't see it. I guess you never will. Are there any other official holidays of other religions...no. Have you also missed all the fuss about store clecks and others saying Merry Christmas and are now being told to say Happy Holidays and how a lot of people are offened because North America is a Christian nation. Anyway you believe what you want because it sounds like you do anyway.
esmith
Veteran Member
I'm the one that started this post and would like to add my $.02. As a retired member of the U.S. Military the National Ensign is a symbol of this country. It bothers me when I see citizens of this country not showing respect for it. Go to any cemetery on Memorial Day or better yet go to Arlington National Cemetery, or the Punch Bowl in Hawaii. What those small symbols planted at each headstone represents is why they put their life on the line and sometimes payed the ultimate sacrifice. You have the right to your beliefs, but it is those that served that gave you the freedom to exercise those rights. And the US Flag represents what those rights are.
FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE
FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE