• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

NBC and the "Pledge of Allegiance"

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Excellent post, sir. I'm glad someone gets it. Thank you for being appreciative of our country and our sacrifices.

Rep for you my good man.
That doesn't equate. They had the pledge of allegiance - they just edited out the "under God" part, which shouldn't be in there anyway based on the values and principles for which this country was started. If you're about honoring our country and the sacrifices of the past, it seems like you would applaud efforts to undo a stain like the 1954 revision to the pledge.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How many Catholic holidays are mentioned here and you still don't see it. I guess you never will. Are there any other official holidays of other religions...no. Have you also missed all the fuss about store clecks and others saying Merry Christmas and are now being told to say Happy Holidays and how a lot of people are offened because North America is a Christian nation. Anyway you believe what you want because it sounds like you do anyway.
America has many Christians, & many founders were of that faith, but they specifically created a secular country when they wrote the Constitution.
The country is full of Muslims, Christians, atheists, deists, Wiccans, Satanists, apatheists, Scientologists & even misguided fools who dislike bacon.
To call it a "Christian country" smacks of exclusion & elitism. America ain't for any one of those groups...tis for all of us.

Regarding the "Happy holidays" salutation, private companies may restrict the speech of their workers while on the job. That's our system, like it or not.
Some give more leeway than others. In my company, people can say what they want for any holiday. If I didn't trust their judgment, I'd fire them.
(We have both Festivus & Xmas decorations & greetings.)

Personally, I see the flag as representing everything the country does, which is sometimes great & at other times heinous.
I revere the Constitution, which represents what we should be.
 
Last edited:

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
America has many Christians, & many founders were of that faith, but they specifically created a secular country when they wrote the Constitution.
The country is full of Muslims, Christians, atheists, deists, Wiccans, Satanists, apatheists, Scientologists & even misguided fools who dislike bacon.
Exqueeze me!! I don't dislike bacon!! I just dislike pork!! there is a difference. Hmph!
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Glad to see NBC apologized for their mistake. Hopefully they won't make the same one again and show more respect in the future.
Respect for whom or what?

It was founded as a Catholic/Christian nation.
Many like to point to our "Christian Forefathers", but in reality the founders of this nation were an eclectic mix of Christians, Deists, Agnostics and even Atheists.
The Congress and President John Adams made this quite clear in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, where it is stated quite plainly "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,"
The Senate's ratification of the Treaty was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken.

America is no Theocracy.
 

Amill

Apikoros
How many Catholic holidays are mentioned here and you still don't see it. I guess you never will. Are there any other official holidays of other religions...no. Have you also missed all the fuss about store clecks and others saying Merry Christmas and are now being told to say Happy Holidays and how a lot of people are offened because North America is a Christian nation. Anyway you believe what you want because it sounds like you do anyway.
Did you even read his post? His list of the Catholic holidays was to compare them to federal holidays....and only 1 federal holiday has a religious origin. Just 1. So you're claim that our nation celebrates all Catholic holidays is a joke.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
How many Catholic holidays are mentioned here and you still don't see it. I guess you never will. Are there any other official holidays of other religions...no. Have you also missed all the fuss about store clecks and others saying Merry Christmas and are now being told to say Happy Holidays and how a lot of people are offened because North America is a Christian nation. Anyway you believe what you want because it sounds like you do anyway.

Uh huh...yeah...this:

Did you even read his post? His list of the Catholic holidays was to compare them to federal holidays....and only 1 federal holiday has a religious origin. Just 1. So you're claim that our nation celebrates all Catholic holidays is a joke.

With only the minor correction that the "his" should be "her";)
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
And Draka's list doesn't even count the all of the Saints' feasts. I live about two blocks off of a Hispanic neighborhood and down the street from a Catholic church, with another around the corner from it. You would not believe everything that goes on there.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I'm the one that started this post and would like to add my $.02. As a retired member of the U.S. Military the National Ensign is a symbol of this country. It bothers me when I see citizens of this country not showing respect for it. Go to any cemetery on Memorial Day or better yet go to Arlington National Cemetery, or the Punch Bowl in Hawaii. What those small symbols planted at each headstone represents is why they put their life on the line and sometimes payed the ultimate sacrifice. You have the right to your beliefs, but it is those that served that gave you the freedom to exercise those rights. And the US Flag represents what those rights are.

FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE

As to this...bullcrap. I'm a US Navy veteran, so is my father, my father's father, my mother's father and many cousins and other relatives. My husband is an Air Force vet as well. This is a military family and we take pride in that. The symbols you find at Arlington and other Veteran cemeteries are NOT all crosses you know. They are various symbols representing the various religions of those who served. Not all those religions hold to a patriarchal monotheistic version of deity. Some have many gods and goddesses, some have a matriarchal deity, some have no deity at all. This is a country of diversity. Diversity of race, ethnicity, sexuality, religion and much more. The Pledge of Allegiance may be a sign of devotion to this country, but as this country is about diversity, then the "Under God" part which should never have been added, SHOULD be left out. To have it in there flies in the face of what this country is supposed to be about, what it actually stands for...Freedom. That includes the freedom from theocratic ideals that do not fit with a person's individual beliefs. I did not serve in the military to protect all rights but one. Maybe you did, but I sure didn't.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
My understanding is that when our country's founding father's wrote in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

they were indicating their liberation from human kingship and claiming their freedom and autonomy. The phrase "under God," to me, does not indicate theocracy, but liberation and a society based upon reason and compassion.

2c
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
i am inclined to think it was done on purpose. either way, i'm glad it happened, not very many people know why "under god" was inserted into the pledge...now perhaps some will
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
My understanding is that when our country's founding father's wrote in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

they were indicating their liberation from human kingship and claiming their freedom and autonomy.
i agree...but explain that to the religious right...

The phrase "under God," to me, does not indicate theocracy, but liberation and a society based upon reason and compassion.

2c
the knights of columbus was a catholic organization though
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
i agree...but explain that to the religious right...
I've known quite a few people on the religious right who don't want a theocracy. Certainly, they want their values incorporated into
government & law, but they also oppose state sanctioned religion. Why? Because they know that it wouldn't be their own religion.
Fundies believe some goofy things, but they can be smart & savvy about the perils of public policy.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I'm the one that started this post and would like to add my $.02. As a retired member of the U.S. Military the National Ensign is a symbol of this country. It bothers me when I see citizens of this country not showing respect for it. Go to any cemetery on Memorial Day or better yet go to Arlington National Cemetery, or the Punch Bowl in Hawaii. What those small symbols planted at each headstone represents is why they put their life on the line and sometimes payed the ultimate sacrifice. You have the right to your beliefs, but it is those that served that gave you the freedom to exercise those rights. And the US Flag represents what those rights are.

FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE

Was it the US military that saved the freedoms of the people of Tulia, Texas?
No.

Was it the US military standing up for blacks in the Civil Rights era?
No.

Was it the US military that recognized women's rights?
No.

Is it the US military protecting the thousands of Americans raided by law enforcement every year based on the spurious notion of protecting society?
No.

Has any nation we have gone to war with since WWII actually threatened our freedoms?
No!

I want a strong military. The best in the world. I do believe the existence of that military protects us. I applaud the efforts of our troops when it is the leadership of this nation that puts them in harms way. I show my efforts by talking politics with people, learning and doing what I can within our system to not send our troops to needless wars.

Far better than saluting like an automaton to a Flag or crappy pledge because ignorant people believe otherwise. True patriots of this nation are too busy pointing the fingers at the corruption and abuse in our own system rather than pointing them at their forehead.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I've known quite a few people on the religious right who don't want a theocracy. Certainly, they want their values incorporated into
government & law,
and that is where the buck stops

but they also oppose state sanctioned religion. Why? Because they know that it wouldn't be their own religion.
well how many of the religious right believe this country was based on christian principles?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Again, for those ignorant of history:

IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION?

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

—The First Amendment To The U.S. Constitution
WHAT ABOUT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE?

We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.

The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.

WHAT ABOUT THE PILGRIMS AND PURITANS?

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later. If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?

Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state.

DO THE WORDS "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" APPEAR IN THE CONSTITUTION?

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.

WHAT DOES "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" MEAN?

Thomas Jefferson, explaining the phrase to the Danbury Baptists, said, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Personal religious views are just that: personal. Our government has no right to promulgate religion or to interfere with private beliefs.

The Supreme Court has forged a three-part "Lemon test" (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971) to determine if a law is permissible under the First-Amendment religion clauses.

A law must have a secular purpose.
It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.
It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.
The separation of church and state is a wonderful American principle supported not only by minorities, such as Jews, Moslems, and unbelievers, but applauded by most Protestant churches that recognize that it has allowed religion to flourish in this nation. It keeps the majority from pressuring the minority.

WHAT ABOUT MAJORITY RULE?

America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. For example, when the majority in certain localities voted to segregate blacks, this was declared illegal. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.

ISN'T REMOVING RELIGION FROM PUBLIC PLACES HOSTILE TO RELIGION?

No one is deprived of worship in America. Tax-exempt churches and temples abound. The state has no say about private religious beliefs and practices, unless they endanger health or life. Our government represents all of the people, supported by dollars from a plurality of religious and non-religious taxpayers.

Some countries, such as the U.S.S.R., expressed hostility to religion. Others, such as Iran ("one nation under God"), have welded church and state. America wisely has taken the middle course--neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT DEALS WITH "CONGRESS." CAN'T STATES MAKE THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS POLICIES?

Under the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868), the entire Bill of Rights applies to the states. No governor, mayor, sheriff, public school employee, or other public official may violate the human rights embodied in the Constitution. The government at all levels must respect the separation of church and state. Most state constitutions, in fact, contain language that is even stricter than the First Amendment, prohibiting the state from setting up a ministry, using tax dollars to promote religion, or interfering with freedom of conscience.

WHAT ABOUT "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" AND "IN GOD WE TRUST?"

The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

ISN'T AMERICAN LAW BASED ON THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

Not at all! The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

WHY BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

Ignoring history, law, and fairness, many fanatics are working vigorously to turn America into a Christian nation. Fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all. History shows us that only harm comes of uniting church and state.

America has never been a Christian nation. We are a free nation. Anne Gaylor, president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, points out: "There can be no religious freedom without the freedom to dissent."

Nontract No. 6. © 2007 Published by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., PO Box 750, Madison WI 53701

Nontracts - FFRF Publications
 
Top