Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[KWED]

I live in a spiritual world, but others do not.

How does that differ from the real world, in practical terms?

 

[SkepticThinker]

To SkepticThinker

Fair enough.

I live in a spiritual world, but others do not.

We all live in the same world here, as far as I can tell.

What is a "spiritual world" and how do you know you live in one?

I mean, I've just demonstrated that a phenomenon that could be easily interpreted as something "spiritual" or "supernatural" or whatever, actually has a perfectly natural explanation for it, despite the fact that so many people around the world interpret it as the former, without any good evidence indicating that anything "spiritual" or "supernatural" are going on at all.

 

[Lekatt]

How does that differ from the real world, in practical terms?

A greater awareness and freedom of thought. Liberating from the intense negative emotions of life, a better more positive look at it all.

 

[Lekatt]

We all live in the same world here, as far as I can tell.

What is a "spiritual world" and how do you know you live in one?

I mean, I've just demonstrated that a phenomenon that could be easily interpreted as something "spiritual" or "supernatural" or whatever, actually has a perfectly natural explanation for it, despite the fact that so many people around the world interpret it as the former, without any good evidence indicating that anything "spiritual" or "supernatural" are going on at all.

I don't doubt that any event can be explained as perfectly natural. The spiritual world I live in has meaning beyond the reaches of physical life. I know because of my NDE, That started it and it has continued through life.

 

[KWED]

A greater awareness and freedom of thought. Liberating from the intense negative emotions of life, a better more positive look at it all.

I get all that from the real world, but without having to believe that imaginary stuff is real.

Are there any detectable, demonstrable differences that show there is an actual "spiritual world", rather than you just imagining it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't doubt that any event can be explained as perfectly natural. The spiritual world I live in has meaning beyond the reaches of physical life. I know because of my NDE, That started it and it has continued through life.

How do you know that your NDE is what you think it is? How do you know the spiritual world exists at all, what does it look like and what are it's properties?

 

[Lekatt]

I get all that from the real world, but without having to believe that imaginary stuff is real.

Are there any detectable, demonstrable differences that show there is an actual "spiritual world", rather than you just imagining it?

Yes, I don't think anyone should believe in that imaginary stuff. Whatever that is?

 

[Lekatt]

How do you know that your NDE is what you think it is? How do you know the spiritual world exists at all, what does it look like and what are it's properties?

Because I experience it. How do you know your life is real?

 

[KWED]

Yes, I don't think anyone should believe in that imaginary stuff. Whatever that is?

Ok, so you are claiming that your "spiritual world" actually exists and is as real as the real world that we all inhabit.
Any idea how you would demonstrate that to someone?
Is there any way that you can show to other people that it exists outside your imagination?

 

[KWED]

Because I experience it. How do you know your life is real?

So you are now claiming that anything we personally experience must be real?
That's kinda worrying!

 

[Lekatt]

Ok, so you are claiming that your "spiritual world" actually exists and is as real as the real world that we all inhabit.
Any idea how you would demonstrate that to someone?
Is there any way that you can show to other people that it exists outside your imagination?

OK, I will tell you the truth, the spiritual truth. Shakespeare said: "The world is a stage and we all play a part in it." That is truth. The physical world is a grand illusion for the purpose of learning to grow spiritually. Here we are presented with all kinds of good and bad events to understand and overcome. Everything in the physical is imaginary. Nothing here will hurt us or kill us. We are spiritual beings living a physical existence. The video I posted is a near death experience that breaks through the mist into the spiritual world. I have done that many times. When we die we awake to the reality of spirit. I penned a poem about Awakening that says it all. Yes, it is possible to see through the mist. You must be calm, and patient.

Awakening

Gloomy clouds of desperation
billow through a bungled past.
Failed probabilities mangled
from a question left unasked.

Guilt straddles the back of heroes,
distraught over what might have been.
Anxiety contorts the soul,
what was, will never be again.

Hiding deep within the darkness,
cloaked with eons of denial.
A glimmer of serenity
whispers, madness is not final.

The grim prevailing ambiance
is not what it appears to be,
within it exists wisdom that
validates immortality.

What seems solid is but vapor
swirling about an Honesty.
A light long dimmed by fearfulness
and beaded with apostasy.

Press bravely through the inner mist.
Reclaim a wisdom known before.
Light of unconditional love,
resides within you ever more.

 

[night912]

OK, I will tell you the truth, the spiritual truth. Shakespeare said: "The world is a stage and we all play a part in it." That is truth. The physical world is a grand illusion for the purpose of learning to grow spiritually. Here we are presented with all kinds of good and bad events to understand and overcome. Everything in the physical is imaginary. Nothing here will hurt us or kill us. We are spiritual beings living a physical existence. The video I posted is a near death experience that breaks through the mist into the spiritual world. I have done that many times. When we die we awake to the reality of spirit. I penned a poem about Awakening that says it all. Yes, it is possible to see through the mist. You must be calm, and patient.

So you're not experiencing the physical world right now? Hmmmm......let's see what you have to say about this.

Yes, I don't think anyone should believe in that imaginary stuff. Whatever that is?

So if this physical world is just your imagination, then, if there is an afterlife, you would have learned nothing upon walking up in the spiritual world since you haven't experienced anything in this physical world. So what's the point in having a physical world? Why not just be born into the spiritual world and learn from there?

 

[gnostic]

So if this physical world is just your imagination, then, if there is an afterlife, you would have learned nothing upon walking up in the spiritual world since you haven't experienced anything in this physical world. So what's the point in having a physical world? Why not just be born into the spiritual world and learn from there?

It is rather illogical.

 

[KWED]

OK, I will tell you the truth, the spiritual truth. Shakespeare said: "The world is a stage and we all play a part in it." That is truth.

No it isn't. It's metaphor.

The physical world is a grand illusion for the purpose of learning to grow spiritually. Here we are presented with all kinds of good and bad events to understand and overcome. Everything in the physical is imaginary. Nothing here will hurt us or kill us.

With all due respect, you sound dangerously delusional. Have you spoken to anyone about this?

We are spiritual beings living a physical existence.

Oh, so now the physical world does exist.

The video I posted is a near death experience that breaks through the mist into the spiritual world. I have done that many times. When we die we awake to the reality of spirit. I penned a poem about Awakening that says it all. Yes, it is possible to see through the mist. You must be calm, and patient.

I asked you if there was any way that you can demonstrate this "spiritual world" actually exists.
You wrote a poem.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I asked you if there was any way that you can demonstrate this "spiritual world" actually exists. You wrote a poem.

Try to understand the meaning of his poem. Perhaps his poem tell you where it is.

 

[leroy]

*sigh*
No. Once again... we look at the possible explanations, assess the evidence and arguments for and against them, and then decide which is the best explanation.
At the start of the process, the claimed supernatural explanation is a possibility, and if there was sufficient evidence it would be the best explanation.
However, the supernatural explanation always suffers from a lack of supporting evidence compared to all the natural explanations. That is why one is favoured over the other. It is not because the explanation is supernatural, it is because it isn't very good.

Ok so what you are saying is that you are open to the idea of OBS and that there is some potencial evidence that would convince you, it is just that my t-shirt example is not good enough…..is this a correct representation of your view?

If we knew that ghosts exist and there has been previous cases of them moving keys, then it would be a reasonable explanation.
Understand?

How can you ever know if there are “previous cases” of ghost moving keys, if you will Always prefer other explanations?

Poor analogy. It is more like your keys not being in their usual place and you having a dream than your dead relative moved them, and then insisting that "ghost" is a better explanation than "mistake".

In my analogy there is an other witness who saw the same thing, so ether

a) 2 people had the same dream at the same time, and exactly when the keys where missing (natural)

b) A a ghost did it (supernatural)

Hopefully you agree that b is a better explanation.

Besides I think you are being dishonest with yourself, if I where to bet, I bet that if you ever have an experience of observing a nebulous image of someone who looks like a fried that died a few days ago, you would consider seriously the existence of ghosts

But where is the "mystery"?

Where did the virus came from? Where/when did the man get the infection? These are usually mysteries, but there is nothing wrong with that, you can still conclude that a virus is the cause of the symptoms even if these mysteries have not been solved……………….agree?

 

[KWED]

Try to understand the meaning of his poem. Perhaps his poem tell you where it is.

It certainly gives some insight as to why they have trouble coping with reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It certainly gives some insight as to why they have trouble coping with reality.

What is reality in your definition?

 

[KWED]

Ok so what you are saying is that you are open to the idea of OBS and that there is some potencial evidence that would convince you, it is just that my t-shirt example is not good enough…..is this a correct representation of your view?

It is my position on every single claim.
If there is sufficient evidence or rational argument, I will consider it a reasonable explanation. At the moment that doesn't apply to OBEs.

The fact that I can construct an experiment that could reasonably indicate genuine OBEs does not mean that therefore they must be a reasonable possibility.

How can you ever know if there are “previous cases” of ghost moving keys, if you will Always prefer other explanations?

You mean "how can we know if something exists before there is evidence that it exists"?
Erm, exactly!
This is the problem you keep repeating. You are assuming that ghosts exist before there is any evidence to support their existence.

In my analogy there is an other witness who saw the same thing,

The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence".
Bear in mind the very real phenomenon where multiple people report the same delusion. The "miracle or Fatima" is an excellent example.

a) 2 people had the same dream at the same time, and exactly when the keys where missing (natural)

b) A a ghost did it (supernatural)

Hopefully you agree that b is a better explanation.

"A ghost did it" is only the best explanation if there is no other explanation that does not rely on unsupported assertions (see Occam's razor).

Besides I think you are being dishonest with yourself, if I where to bet, I bet that if you ever have an experience of observing a nebulous image of someone who looks like a fried that died a few days ago, you would consider seriously the existence of ghosts

No. I would initially assume it was an hallucination triggered by the emotional trauma of my friend dying. We know hallucinations are real, and we know that such delusions can be triggered by psychological stress. Therefore "hallucination" is a better explanation that "ghost".
However, if the existence of ghosts has been established, "ghost" would be a reasonable explanation alongside "hallucination".
This really isn't that difficult a concept.

Where did the virus came from? Where/when did the man get the infection? These are usually mysteries,

But those mysteries are not part of the "what is wrong with him" problem.

but there is nothing wrong with that, you can still conclude that a virus is the cause of the symptoms even if these mysteries have not been solved……………….agree?

Exactly. We are not solving a mystery with a mystery. We are solving one mystery with an evidence-based conclusion, while other mysteries remain unanswered.

To use another analogy, just because the convicted murderer refuses to explain why he killed the victim, doesn't mean that the case hasn't been solved.

 

[KWED]

What is reality in your definition?

When in doubt, refer to the OED...
Reality - The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.