Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Subduction Zone]

I don't believe in God, I know there is according to my understanding of the reality represented by the term 'God'. There is a difference between belief and experience.

Experience may be self delusion. If you cannot think of a valid way to test what you call your experience all you have is belief.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Many people believe in spiritual knowledge, but some actually express it. .Many people believe in aliens, but they are not aliens.

You lost me there. I understand that many people believe in both of these things. But the real question is does that make either of those things true.

There are many places in the past where it was considered an honor to have your heart cut out in sacrifice to some god, but does the fact that people went under a knife mean that a particular god exists? Or is it evidence that some people will believe in something so strongly they would die in support of that belief. I can see the evidence for the action of people, but not that it shows the existence of any particular deity or something spiritual. That is the question I am pondering tonight.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Many people believe in spiritual knowledge, but some actually express it. .Many people believe in aliens, but they are not aliens.

How is it determined that spiritual knowledge is being expressed? For that matter, how is it determined to be spiritual in the first place? It seems one either believes or doesn't, but you cannot penalize are marginalize those that do not, because there is no basis for it since there seems no basis for believing the spiritual either.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Many people believe in spiritual knowledge, but some actually express it. .Many people believe in aliens, but they are not aliens.

Ben, it has been interesting. I hope to chat with you later if you are willing. Time to get bed. Je dois partir.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Experience may be self delusion. If you cannot think of a valid way to test what you call your experience all you have is belief.

Well experience is just experience. delusion can come as a result of not understanding properly what it is and the context, etc.. Like all understanding, spiritual understanding comes with mistakes, delusions, etc., but they can and mostly will be corrected so long as one does not dive in too deep initially, and after..

 

[KWED]

I think that is a very interesting and important question. Forms of it are in my mind often.

People go with what they are familiar with. Something strange happens. It must be ghosts, spirits, etc. Even if the strange has a reasonable explanation, some unthought of explanation or not enough information to explain at all. People immediately fill in the blank with their favorite answer and consider it solved.

There is an evolutionary explanation for ascribing agency to the unknown.
If an early human was out in the bush and heard the undergrowth rustle, it could be the wind but it could be a predator. If you wait to find out which one it really is, it might be to late. Therefore those that had the subconscious instinct that unknown rustle behind you is "something" would be more likely to survive and pass on their genes. It is easy to see how such behaviour would develop into animist beliefs (the wind, trees, mountains, etc having agency).

Even though I know it is just the wind, I still get a prickle when the bedroom door moves in the middle of the night. That is in all of us.

 

[KWED]

Something along the lines of your body being at death's door for an extended period such that your mind still had awareness.

What is remarkable about a living person having memories of dreams or hallucinations caused by stress or trauma?

Also, bear in mind that many people who report NDEs were not actually in any risk of dying.

 

[KWED]

You are an atheist and do not accept spiritual knowledge, That is precisely what I understood to be the case, my case is closed!

You are attempting to construct a false dichotomy. The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Simply pointing to one case and claiming it applies to all cases is committing the fallacy of composition.

 

[KWED]

Do you believe the belief in aliens is on a par with belief in Jesus Christ?

lol! No.
It is almost certain that aliens exist somewhere in the universe.
It is almost certain that the Biblical character of Jesus did not exist.

 

[KWED]

Not quite, until you believe in spiritual knowledge, you can not realize spiritual knowledge.

Different wording, same circular logic.

Some souls are the spiritual experience, they understand the physical body as a vehicle for spiritual expression, it is not what and who they really are..

I guess that once you believe this, it isn't hard to accept it is real. Unfortunately you have zero evidence to support your belief.

 

[KWED]

You are speculating on things by self admission you do not accept as being real. Suppose you stopped supposing and accepted the offer to try 'knocking and asking'. you would soon find out the truth. But supposing this or that is not knowledge, you need to have a logical and methodical approach to acquire spiritual knowledge.

But I have tried. As part of my lifelong interest in religion, I have prayed to gods, I have read their scriptures, I have participated in their rituals. Nothing.
Why do you thing all those gods and spirits are ignoring me?

If you are going to claim that I am not trying with enough belief or conviction, then you are just proving my point. Without existing belief, there is nothing there.

 

[KWED]

When you begin to understand what the teachings actually convey beyond the concepts, then the door will open, not before.

Still relying on circular reasoning, I see.
"You can't find god until you believe god can be found".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well experience is just experience. delusion can come as a result of not understanding properly what it is and the context, etc.. Like all understanding, spiritual understanding comes with mistakes, delusions, etc., but they can and mostly will be corrected so long as one does not dive in too deep initially, and after..

Unfortunately that appears to be what happened to you.

 

[KWED]

It is like saying to someone who can't yet, but would like to be able to ride a bike, you must try riding the bike in order to learn. They will never be able to ride a bike until they practice trying until the they can. But if they don't want to be able to ride a bike, that's ok, later they may change their mind.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

No. Riding a bike is an aspirational, practical skill, so not the same at all. It is like saying to you "If you try being an atheist, you will realise that the idea of god is nonsense".
Go on. Try being an atheist for a week. Trust me, knowledge will be revealed.
You can't just pretend though, you need to actually accept that there is no god, then you will understand the truth of atheism.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How is it determined that spiritual knowledge is being expressed? For that matter, how is it determined to be spiritual in the first place? It seems one either believes or doesn't, but you cannot penalize are marginalize those that do not, because there is no basis for it since there seems no basis for believing the spiritual either.

When one has, as a result of a long period of efficacious spiritual practice, realized within themselves a higher consciousness beyond their ego thinking mind, and spend more and more in that 'space', just as the conditioned ego mind self identifies with the body, a new higher self identity emerges that expresses this inner higher spiritual source. The lower ego mind still functions as appropriate (when and if not deluded which will happen if it thinks it is the higher state).
I understand that it is impossible to convey a subjective experience to someone who has not had the same or similar experience, so feel free to be skeptical.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ben, it has been interesting. I hope to chat with you later if you are willing. Time to get bed. Je dois partir.

Thanks Dan, anytime. sweet dreams!

 

[KWED]

I see your problem, the God you seek is not separate from you, It is your source which means that you are the expression of. The potential is there to be a more perfect expression of, or a less, but being an atheist does not mean you are still not an expression of God. Denying that there is a higher source of you, that you are just a 'stand alone' mortal ego self identified with the body does not make it true. And I grant you just believing there is a higher source also does not make it true, but realizing it through some efficacious spiritual practice does.

Concerning "Nobody appears to beat home", it is true the path is difficult and long, it may take years of daily meditation to get to the next step. That step when it comes will remove all doubts, but the path still will be difficult. Religious practice of which I speak is not about gaining something, it is about learning and realizing the full potential of what and who you really are.

The problem you have here is that there is evidence and rational argument that supports the "no gods" position, whereas belief in gods relies on existing belief rather than evidence and rational argument - as you have admitted yourself. No one arrives at belief in gods through scientific and evidential means.

Given this, it is reasonable to assume no gods, and unreasonable to assume gods.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are attempting to construct a false dichotomy. The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Simply pointing to one case and claiming it applies to all cases is committing the fallacy of composition.

So show me an atheist who accepts in spiritual knowledge?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

lol! No.
It is almost certain that the Biblical character of Jesus did not exist.

Now that is a belief, I deal in reality.

 

[KWED]

Ok, simply to be in a coma and/or on life support, say for a day or more. Have you had this type of near death experience and had awareness?

So all those people who have claimed NDEs when "dead" for say 5 minutes in the ER were just imagining it? We can dismiss all such claims?