Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

Um okay. I didn't even mention the words "objective evidence."


They don't though. Hence the fact that we dream. The entire brain is active during REM sleep, even though our muscles are paralyzed.


Then please explain how we can be aware of ourselves during our dreams and how we can be aware that we are in the middle of a dream, and try to wake up from it.


How Our Thoughts Change When We Fall Asleep
Consciousness across Sleep and Wake: Discontinuity and Continuity of Memory Experiences As a Reflection of Consolidation Processes
Brain Basics: Understanding Sleep | National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke

Your dreams are not thoughts, nothing you posted shows that they are.
And in any case, there is dreamless sleep, there are no thoughts.

Do you understand?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I know that you believe that and you have asserted it umpteen times. But you have yet to demonstrate that anything spiritual is happening or even could happen.

You're trying to make your own special logic here that only works when we talk about this one thing but doesn't apply to anything else that actually exists. It's just special pleading.


You can't actually demonstrate any of it though, right? You've only got assertions.

More of this "you only believe it if you already believe it" stuff that gets us absolutely no where. Do you apply this to any other aspect of life, or just to this?


I want to believe as many true things as possible. The problem is, you can't demonstrate that what you're claiming is true, so I don't have any good reasons to believe it. You're not really giving me anything I can work with here.

I don't have to prove anything to you, it is my own understanding that is important to me. Besides, you are an atheist and do not have the prerequisite understanding to understand what I have conveyed. Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Your dreams are not thoughts, nothing you posted shows that they are.
And in any case, there is dreamless sleep, there are no thoughts.

Do you understand?

Why are dreams not thoughts? What is the basis for your claim?

Can you show me that thoughts cease and show me how you know this?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why are dreams not thoughts? What is the basis for your claim?

Can you show me that thoughts cease and show me how you know this?

You mean to say you do not know the difference between thoughts and dreams?

The still mind state is a subjective experience that is realized daily in my meditation, but it is not something that can be shown objectively. It could be tested by some brainwave detector and I am sure it has by other meditators. Dhyan, Chan, Zen are all meditative practices for which the still mind free of thought is the goal, look it up?

Oh, and look up dreamless sleep too.

 

[rational experiences]

It is not a hallucination.

Image feedback gas water status changed causes the manifested cause in the gas heavens as visionary.

The place where change occurs the heavens first.

Manifests then disappears.

How nasty some humans are for another human to claim your brain chemistry changed to see it. A hallucination.

Yet it wasn't in my mind sight.

I physically saw it.

So you tell a satanic scientist theist I don't own it is why my brain chemistry changed to see it.

Just so he doesn't gas burn us all to death saying biology was having a hallucination. Oh humans own it by my science man status I want you to own it.

That's right. Our brother the satanic theist hates us in his personal psyche. Wants to believe we own it so he can be satisfied that we deserved life attack.

As it is a personality disorder to harm family.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You mean to say you do not know the difference between thoughts and dreams?

The still mind state is a subjective experience that is realized daily in my meditation, but it is not something that can be shown objectively. It could be tested by some brainwave detector and I am sure it has by other meditators. Dhyan, Chan, Zen are all meditative practices for which the still mind free of thought is the goal, look it up?

Oh, and look up dreamless sleep too.

I am asking you. You tell me.

What is the difference between thoughts and dreams?

How have you correlated brainwave activity to your claimed states of mind? What are the indicators that support your claim?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You mean to say you do not know the difference between thoughts and dreams?

The still mind state is a subjective experience that is realized daily in my meditation, but it is not something that can be shown objectively. It could be tested by some brainwave detector and I am sure it has by other meditators. Dhyan, Chan, Zen are all meditative practices for which the still mind free of thought is the goal, look it up?

Oh, and look up dreamless sleep too.

How do you know the mind is still and for how long if you have no way to monitor it internally? If it cannot be shown objectively, what do you reference it to in order to know it subjectively? If you have some reason to know, then I fail to understand how you cannot pass that information along. How am I to know that you have accomplished what you claim?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am asking you. You tell me.

What is the difference between thoughts and dreams?

How have you correlated brainwave activity to your claimed states of mind? What are the indicators that support your claim?

Measure Brain Function Deep: EEG Sloreta Brain Imaging in Fairfield CT

Dreams you dream occur during sleep, thoughts you think when you are awake.

When my mind is still, there is an absence of thought, when my mind is in normal awake state, I think thoughts!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How do you know the mind is still and for how long if you have no way to monitor it internally? If it cannot be shown objectively, what do you reference it to in order to know it subjectively? If you have some reason to know, then I fail to understand how you cannot pass that information along. How am I to know that you have accomplished what you claim?

Hmmm, of course a meditator is aware of being in the still mind state, the mind has ceased thinking and is still.

The meditators mind is aware when it is still, and aware when it is thinking, nothing external is required..

Pass what information along, how to meditate? Just do a search for still mind meditation for beginners, it could take many years to still your mind. When you are able to still your mind, you may at least allow that it has always been possible for others, until then, be patient Danny Boy!

 

[gnostic]

Measure Brain Function Deep: EEG Sloreta Brain Imaging in Fairfield CT

Dreams you dream occur during sleep, thoughts you think when you are awake.

When my mind is still, there is an absence of thought, when my mind is in normal awake state, I think thoughts!

Hmmm, of course a meditator is aware of being in the still mind state, the mind has ceased thinking and is still.

The meditators mind is aware when it is still, and aware when it is thinking, nothing external is required..

Pass what information along, how to meditate? Just do a search for still mind meditation for beginners, it could take many years to still your mind. When you are able to still your mind, you may at least allow that it has always been possible for others, until then, be patient Danny Boy!

So many times, Dan have asked you the same questions, and you still haven’t explain your claim as to why dreams are not thoughts.

You just making similar claims without ever explaining your claims.

You are being evasive, waffling with just more claims and playing more shallow word games, but no explanations.

This is what I mean about rabbit hole.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So many times, Dan have asked you the same questions, and you still haven’t explain your claim as to why dreams are not thoughts.

You just making similar claims without ever explaining your claims.

You are being evasive, waffling with just more claims and playing more shallow word games, but no explanations.

This is what I mean about rabbit hole.

I am not the one claiming thoughts are the same as dreams, you and Dan are, so please provide evidence for your claim that thoughts are dreams?

I can't make it any clearer than I explained, provide your explanation of why you think thoughts are dreams and it may help me understand your understanding.

As an atheist, you are not able to understand the underlying unity of the universe, you appear to imagine the universe to be made of parts, and that you are totally separate from me. You are not, it is only in your mind that you have these erroneous thoughts, in meditation you will realize we are expressions of the same source, that your body is not what and who you are. Souls are not equal in their development.

 

[night912]

I am not the one claiming thoughts are the same as dreams, you and Dan are, so please provide evidence for your claim that thoughts are dreams?

Asking you to show the difference between dreams and thoughts, is not claim. You are the one who claimed that dreams are not thoughts, but never presented any evidence.

I can't make it any clearer than I explained, provide your explanation of why you think thoughts are dreams and it may help me understand your understanding.

Actually, simply saying that dreams are dreams and thoughts are thoughts, isn't an explanation why dreams are not thoughts.

As an atheist, you are not able to understand the underlying unity of the universe, you appear to imagine the universe to be made of parts, and that you are totally separate from me. You are not, it is only in your mind that you have these erroneous thoughts, in meditation you will realize we are expressions of the same source, that your body is not what and who you are. Souls are not equal in their development.

No, all of these are only you thoughts, specifically, conscious thoughts.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Measure Brain Function Deep: EEG Sloreta Brain Imaging in Fairfield CT

Dreams you dream occur during sleep, thoughts you think when you are awake.

When my mind is still, there is an absence of thought, when my mind is in normal awake state, I think thoughts!

That doesn't seem to distinguish dreams and thoughts in any adequate way that shows them to be distinct. Dreams are thoughts and thoughts are dreams. Dreams are just thoughts in your sleep. What do you have to say any differently?

Show me this mind being still and without thought. I don't believe it.

You can circle back to my having to believe what you say, before I believe what you say, but escape is not that easy. If your subjective experience has any validity beyond belief, there must be some substance to what you think you understand. If there is substance, it goes beyond belief and becomes a reality that can be shared.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am not the one claiming thoughts are the same as dreams, you and Dan are, so please provide evidence for your claim that thoughts are dreams?

I can't make it any clearer than I explained, provide your explanation of why you think thoughts are dreams and it may help me understand your understanding.

As an atheist, you are not able to understand the underlying unity of the universe, you appear to imagine the universe to be made of parts, and that you are totally separate from me. You are not, it is only in your mind that you have these erroneous thoughts, in meditation you will realize we are expressions of the same source, that your body is not what and who you are. Souls are not equal in their development.

I have not claimed that thoughts and dreams are the same or different. You are. Please stop putting words in my mouth. That effort offers you nothing and belittles me.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am not the one claiming thoughts are the same as dreams, you and Dan are, so please provide evidence for your claim that thoughts are dreams?

I can't make it any clearer than I explained, provide your explanation of why you think thoughts are dreams and it may help me understand your understanding.

As an atheist, you are not able to understand the underlying unity of the universe, you appear to imagine the universe to be made of parts, and that you are totally separate from me. You are not, it is only in your mind that you have these erroneous thoughts, in meditation you will realize we are expressions of the same source, that your body is not what and who you are. Souls are not equal in their development.

You have not made it clear. You have made a claim. I am asking questions. You don't seem to be able to answer those questions.

I am not an atheist, why is it so difficult to answer my questions too?

What evidence are you using to show that you, I, everyone else and the universe are one?

How do you know that meditation shows you the answers? Why is it that you cannot share these answers if they are real?

How have you determined what the soul is and what methods are you using to compare different souls?

Can you show me a simple, unevolved soul and point out the differences between it and a more advanced, more mature soul?

I believe in the existence of the soul, but I cannot show you mine and I cannot see yours. I cannot show anyone that either of us actually has one, though I believe we do. I cannot show mine to @gnostic, @night912 and @TagliatelliMonster and demonstrate to them its existence even though I believe it exists. They can tell me my belief is as useful as balloon juice and there is nothing in my belief for them to accept it as substantial evidence for the soul. That is the reality of it. That is the duality.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Hmmm, of course a meditator is aware of being in the still mind state, the mind has ceased thinking and is still.

The meditators mind is aware when it is still, and aware when it is thinking, nothing external is required..

Pass what information along, how to meditate? Just do a search for still mind meditation for beginners, it could take many years to still your mind. When you are able to still your mind, you may at least allow that it has always been possible for others, until then, be patient Danny Boy!

If someone is in a state where the mind is still and unthinking, what is that awareness of the still, unthinking mind if it is not thought?

How can a mind be aware and yet not functioning in thought?

It sounds like poking a hole in an impenetrable object.

I am asking you to provide evidence of what you claim you know and to do so without hiding behind the wall of "it's subjective and everyone has to already believe to believe".

Why do you call me Danny Boy so suddenly and unexpectedly? What is the meaning for doing so? I have been patiently waiting for answers to my questions. I have had to be patient.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You mean to say you do not know the difference between thoughts and dreams?

The still mind state is a subjective experience that is realized daily in my meditation, but it is not something that can be shown objectively. It could be tested by some brainwave detector and I am sure it has by other meditators. Dhyan, Chan, Zen are all meditative practices for which the still mind free of thought is the goal, look it up?

Oh, and look up dreamless sleep too.

How does one know that there is dreamless sleep? What is functioning to monitor this internally?

Does having a goal of freedom from thought mean that the goal is achieved? Does picking pre-med as a major make a person a physician?

 

[night912]

Of course thought processes cease when you sleep, and certainly when you are in the deep meditative state. The Theta brain wave state of 4 - 7 Hz is experienced in both dream state and shallow meditative state, there are processes going on in the brain, but it is not thinking. The Delta wave state of 0.5 to 4 Hz occur when you are in dreamless sleep state and also in the deep meditative state. The ego self is not present in this state.

There's no sufficient evidence to support that claim. Brain waves are not measurements of thought process. It's the measurement for brain activity.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Presentation of misinformation is representation of intellectual dishonesty and/or ignorance.

 

[night912]

Measure Brain Function Deep: EEG Sloreta Brain Imaging in Fairfield CT

Dreams you dream occur during sleep, thoughts you think when you are awake.

When my mind is still, there is an absence of thought, when my mind is in normal awake state, I think thoughts!

What's your definition of "dream" within the context of this discussion?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What's your definition of "dream" within the context of this discussion?

Truly an important question.

I wonder how a person can differentiate between not dreaming and not remembering dreams. How can I know that I dreamt but recall nothing of the dreams or dreaming?

I am very curious to know how dreams are not thoughts. As a lifelong daydreamer, I would be very interested to know.