Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[SkepticThinker]

Your dreams are not thoughts, nothing you posted shows that they are.
And in any case, there is dreamless sleep, there are no thoughts.

Do you understand?

Dreams take place inside your brain, so of course they involve thought processes. How else do you think your brain generates dreams and navigates through them? How could you possibly know you are dreaming, as we often do, if your brain isn't doing any thinking? You didn't answer those questions last time, maybe this time you'll give it a go.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't have to prove anything to you, it is my own understanding that is important to me. Besides, you are an atheist and do not have the prerequisite understanding to understand what I have conveyed. Do you understand what I am saying?

Yes, I understand what you're saying.
"You have to already believe to believe."

Which is nonsense and not how we go about believing in any other thing in the world. You're just making a special exception when it comes to religion. Well, sorry, there are no special exceptions.


Thanks for illustrating my point yet again.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am not the one claiming thoughts are the same as dreams, you and Dan are, so please provide evidence for your claim that thoughts are dreams?

I can't make it any clearer than I explained, provide your explanation of why you think thoughts are dreams and it may help me understand your understanding.

As an atheist, you are not able to understand the underlying unity of the universe, you appear to imagine the universe to be made of parts, and that you are totally separate from me. You are not, it is only in your mind that you have these erroneous thoughts, in meditation you will realize we are expressions of the same source, that your body is not what and who you are. Souls are not equal in their development.

You're the one claiming that our brains don't think while we're sleeping. Everything we know about brains points to the contrary.

And please stop with the "as an atheist you can't understand such and such ..." It's silly, inaccurate, and doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Asking you to show the difference between dreams and thoughts, is not claim. You are the one who claimed that dreams are not thoughts, but never presented any evidence.

Actually, simply saying that dreams are dreams and thoughts are thoughts, isn't an explanation why dreams are not thoughts.


No, all of these are only you thoughts, specifically, conscious thoughts.

If you do not understand that thoughts are not dreams, I can't help you with that depth of lack of understanding.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That doesn't seem to distinguish dreams and thoughts in any adequate way that shows them to be distinct. Dreams are thoughts and thoughts are dreams. Dreams are just thoughts in your sleep. What do you have to say any differently?

Show me this mind being still and without thought. I don't believe it.

You can circle back to my having to believe what you say, before I believe what you say, but escape is not that easy. If your subjective experience has any validity beyond belief, there must be some substance to what you think you understand. If there is substance, it goes beyond belief and becomes a reality that can be shared.

It is of no matter if you do not believe, your belief is your belief.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have not claimed that thoughts and dreams are the same or different. You are. Please stop putting words in my mouth. That effort offers you nothing and belittles me.

You are not understanding, I am not claiming thoughts and dreams are the same thing, they are different. Do you think they are the same thing or different?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You have not made it clear. You have made a claim. I am asking questions. You don't seem to be able to answer those questions.

I am not an atheist, why is it so difficult to answer my questions too?

What evidence are you using to show that you, I, everyone else and the universe are one?

How do you know that meditation shows you the answers? Why is it that you cannot share these answers if they are real?

How have you determined what the soul is and what methods are you using to compare different souls?

Can you show me a simple, unevolved soul and point out the differences between it and a more advanced, more mature soul?

I believe in the existence of the soul, but I cannot show you mine and I cannot see yours. I cannot show anyone that either of us actually has one, though I believe we do. I cannot show mine to @gnostic, @night912 and @TagliatelliMonster and demonstrate to them its existence even though I believe it exists. They can tell me my belief is as useful as balloon juice and there is nothing in my belief for them to accept it as substantial evidence for the soul. That is the reality of it. That is the duality.

I presume sufficient common sense on the part of posters here to already know that thoughts are not dreams.

Your mind Dan is not yet sufficiently developed to have this conversation, it is a waste of my time. If you do not understand the difference between thoughts and dreams, you need to do more.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How does one know that there is dreamless sleep? What is functioning to monitor this internally?

Does having a goal of freedom from thought mean that the goal is achieved? Does picking pre-med as a major make a person a physician?

Because it is a fact Danny, reflect on your own sleep and dream experience Danny.

Choosing a goal is not the same as achieving it Danny.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There's no sufficient evidence to support that claim. Brain waves are not measurements of thought process. It's the measurement for brain activity.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Presentation of misinformation is representation of intellectual dishonesty and/or ignorance.

Apha beta, delta etc brainwave phenomena and their respective states is a part of established science, look it up or alternatively prove my sources wrong.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What's your definition of "dream" within the context of this discussion?

A dream is a mind experience whilst in the sleep state.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, I understand what you're saying.
"You have to already believe to believe."

Which is nonsense and not how we go about believing in any other thing in the world. You're just making a special exception when it comes to religion. Well, sorry, there are no special exceptions.


Thanks for illustrating my point yet again.

An atheist's belief that there no spiritual reality is what defines them, their mind is made up, no open to the truth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You're the one claiming that our brains don't think while we're sleeping. Everything we know about brains points to the contrary.

And please stop with the "as an atheist you can't understand such and such ..." It's silly, inaccurate, and doesn't get us anywhere.

You believe what you want, but a thought in the waking state is not the same as a dream in the sleeping state.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Dreams take place inside your brain, so of course they involve thought processes. How else do you think your brain generates dreams and navigates through them? How could you possibly know you are dreaming, as we often do, if your brain isn't doing any thinking? You didn't answer those questions last time, maybe this time you'll give it a go.

So here is a test, I want you to go to sleep and think/dream about composing a small simple rhyming poem on the theme of beauty. Of course I presume you can do that in your awake state. If you fail, you would have proven not only to yourself, but all the gang here who think thoughts are dreams, that dreaming is thinking.

Dream
A dream is a succession of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations that usually occur involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep. Humans spend about two hours dreaming per night, and each dream lasts around 5 to 20 minutes.Wikipedia

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If someone is in a state where the mind is still and unthinking, what is that awareness of the still, unthinking mind if it is not thought?

How can a mind be aware and yet not functioning in thought?

It sounds like poking a hole in an impenetrable object.

I am asking you to provide evidence of what you claim you know and to do so without hiding behind the wall of "it's subjective and everyone has to already believe to believe".

Why do you call me Danny Boy so suddenly and unexpectedly? What is the meaning for doing so? I have been patiently waiting for answers to my questions. I have had to be patient.

The awareness is one with the universal, meaning that which is in the background always but is normally masked by one personal thoughts which dominate.

So there is being aware of, as in thought, and pure awareness which is not personal and not dualistic. When there is thinking there is a thinker, thus dual, when the mind is still, there is pure awareness, no thinker present, thus non-dual - oneness.

If you would prefer me not to be so familiar as to call you Danny Boy, I shall desist, Daniel.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It is of no matter if you do not believe, your belief is your belief.

My questions are not about what I believe. They are about what you claim. You claim the mind can cease thinking and that dreams are not thoughts. Those are specific claims. If you cannot support your claims, it is not a weakness to admit that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Because it is a fact Danny, reflect on your own sleep and dream experience Danny.

Choosing a goal is not the same as achieving it Danny.

If it is a fact, then you can provide the evidence showing it is a fact.

That was my point regarding the goal metaphor.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

A dream is a mind experience whilst in the sleep state.

How is mind experience different than thought?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Apha beta, delta etc brainwave phenomena and their respective states is a part of established science, look it up or alternatively prove my sources wrong.

That is neither here nor there. It is what you claim that is of interest to us. Apparently, you do understand the difference between believing something and demonstrating something. The actual duality.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I presume sufficient common sense on the part of posters here to already know that thoughts are not dreams.

Your mind Dan is not yet sufficiently developed to have this conversation, it is a waste of my time. If you do not understand the difference between thoughts and dreams, you need to do more.

I see. Blame the person asking questions rather than answer questions you cannot. That doesn't seem like the pinnacle of spiritual enlightenment to me.

What does common sense have to do with differentiating dreams from thoughts? How do we know that dreams are not thoughts? How do you know? It is a pretty simple question based on what you keep claiming.

If this is all a waste of your time, why bother posting in the first place?

I think my mind is sufficiently developed. I know it is. Tell me how dreams are not thoughts.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You are not understanding, I am not claiming thoughts and dreams are the same thing, they are different. Do you think they are the same thing or different?

I do understand. What you seem to be doing your best at is to avoid answering simple questions on how you have come to that conclusion?

I am asking you. It is your answer that I am interested in since you claim dreams are not thoughts. Why is a dream not a thought? I do not see why you are making this so difficult.