Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[SkepticThinker]

An atheist's belief that there no spiritual reality is what defines them, their mind is made up, no open to the truth.

I don't have a belief that "there is no spiritual reality."

Rather, I haven't seen any evidence of any spiritual reality coming from people who claim it is real and so I do not believe in spiritual reality. That's not the same thing as claiming "there is no spiritual reality."

You could, of course, put this matter to rest by providing some evidence of a "spiritual reality."

As I've stated more than once, I am interested in believing as many true things as possible. So I'm definitely "open to the truth." You need to demonstrate it though, not just assert it and claim everyone else is too stupid to understand it.

And of course none of this changes the fact that what you're saying is "you have to already believe in order to believe."

 

[SkepticThinker]

You believe what you want, but a thought in the waking state is not the same as a dream in the sleeping state.

Dreams come from minds. If you truly believe our minds don't think while we sleep I don't know what to tell you other than that you don't seem to understand how brains work.
If we couldn't think while we slept, we couldn't have dreams.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So here is a test, I want you to go to sleep and think/dream about composing a small simple rhyming poem on the theme of beauty. Of course I presume you can do that in your awake state. If you fail, you would have proven not only to yourself, but all the gang here who think thoughts are dreams, that dreaming is thinking.

Dream
A dream is a succession of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations that usually occur involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep. Humans spend about two hours dreaming per night, and each dream lasts around 5 to 20 minutes.Wikipedia

I've dozed off to sleep thinking about my dad, and then had a dream about my dad. In that very dream, in which I knew I was dreaming, I made decisions about how I was going to interact with my dad. Please explain how that works, from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep.

Also, please explain how we can even dream at all, if our brains aren't thinking while we're asleep. If dreams are our images, ideas, emotions and sensations, how are these things generated, if not from a thinking mind?

Also, please explain from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep, how and why our brains wake us up when we hear a loud noise in the middle of night, for example.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't believe it Dan, I know. You too can know, just practice for a few years daily.

If you can't show it, then you don't know it.
-Aron Ra

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But dreams do occur because of the mind.

Clearly, the mind more than think (hence thought). As I said before, the mind can do other things, such as -

• contain and recall memories,
  
• it is responsible for how we act, feel, the emotional aspect of the mind,
  
• as well as for imagination, inspiration.

And of course, the mind is responsible for what we dream about.

And the mind can clearly do more than dream, and it is something that occur because of the physical brain is still active, even when a person is sleep.

The brain is active, when we dream, even though we are not conscious; dreams occurred when the brain is in subconscious state.

I am quite sure, you would agree that the brain can function while we are in conscious state? If you don't agree, then you don't know much about biology.

What I mean by that question, is that we can control how we move about, arms, hands, legs, feet, back, neck, etc. These are things that control, consciously...you agree?

But there are other things, that we do control, but the brain function automatically. For examples, the heart pump, circulating the blood through veins and arteries; the lungs function automatically, controlling the breathing; the stomach and intestines help with digestion, as well as converting food into energy, and so on.

These functions don't require people to control, consciously.

Now, I don't deny that we can consciously control our breathing, taking deeper breath, and this in turn can slow our heart rhythms, as well as sharper a person's perception, or focus and concentration. People who do sports, yoga or martial art, use these techniques, to focus.

Now, my points are that there are things that the brain can do certain functions without us being in control; much of our organs, glands, and other things, don't require our conscious control, because the brain perform them automatically.

Now, if the brain do things that we don't control consciously and manually, then why can't the brain also automatically bring about dreams?

...dreams delved in parts of our memory, imagination, thoughts and emotion.

Sorry, but I still have to disagree with you. Dreams occurred because of the subconscious mind. There are no need to delve into your religion or anything "supernatural", in regards to dreams.



And that's all you have given us - claims.

When ask for explanation, you don't explain.

You just make more claims, which would then require more explanations.

99% of what you said is nor relevant to the the issue we are discussing, dreams are or are not thoughts!
So let's clear this up, is it your understanding you that thoughts are the same mind events as are dreams?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I've dozed off to sleep thinking about my dad, and then had a dream about my dad. In that very dream, in which I knew I was dreaming, I made decisions about how I was going to interact with my dad. Please explain how that works, from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep.

Also, please explain how we can even dream at all, if our brains aren't thinking while we're asleep. If dreams are our images, ideas, emotions and sensations, how are these things generated, if not from a thinking mind?

Also, please explain from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep, how and why our brains wake us up when we hear a loud noise in the middle of night, for example.

Yes, we do dream about issues in our lives, and yes we do think about issues in our lives, but the reality represented by the concept of thought is not the same as the reality represented by the concept of dream. The reason different concepts apply is because the mind events are not the same. If they were the same, usage of the concept 'thought' would be common when one is referring to a dream, and it isn't despite you and others here who claim they are the same.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If you can't show it, then you don't know it.
-Aron Ra

So in your previous post, you told about a dream concerning your Dad. How would you like it if everyone who called it fake, if you can't provide evidence then it didn't happen! That is the position you are taking on the things I say to you, which like your dream about Dad, is a subjective experience.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I've dozed off to sleep thinking about my dad, and then had a dream about my dad. In that very dream, in which I knew I was dreaming, I made decisions about how I was going to interact with my dad. Please explain how that works, from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep.

Also, please explain how we can even dream at all, if our brains aren't thinking while we're asleep. If dreams are our images, ideas, emotions and sensations, how are these things generated, if not from a thinking mind?

Also, please explain from your viewpoint that our brains don't think while we're asleep, how and why our brains wake us up when we hear a loud noise in the middle of night, for example.

So on your dream about your Dad, and how does it happen that decisions about your future interaction with Dad were made, please read my post to gnostic #1218 on my prescient dreams. How can dreams of the future turn out to be accurate, I have a fair idea but it would never mean anything to an atheist because I can not prove any of it. The point is that whatever is going on is not thought, the mind at a deeper level appears to be receiving input from somewhere else rather than from personal memory.

 

[gnostic]

99% of what you said is nor relevant to the the issue we are discussing, dreams are or are not thoughts!
So let's clear this up, is it your understanding you that thoughts are the same mind events as are dreams?

I have tried to clear it up, which is to explain as well as provided examples from my own experiences...which is a lot more than what you have done with Dan’s questions.

Plus who are to say what are relevant?

It is relevant to show the differences in brain activities when the mind are in conscious state and subconscious state.

As I have said, in the dream state, the MIND draws on our “memory”, “imagination”, “emotion”, “thought”, and even our “experiences”. The dreams have to come from somewhere, from those parts of our minds.

But as I have said the mind draw upon these in a different state of consciousness - the subconscious state or the dream state.

In this subconscious state, the mind draw out emotion, experiences, imagination, thoughts and memory, involuntarily and unbidden, where we would no conscious control as to what we dream about.

How many more times, must I say that our dreams come when the brains is relaxed when we asleep, and our minds are in “subconscious state”?

But being asleep, don’t mean that there are no brain activities. The brains actually become active when we are dreaming, despite being asleep.

That link you provided show brain activity when dreaming...what it doesn’t show is what in that person’s dream.

So there are two states in which our brains are active: conscious and subconscious.

If anyone is ignoring what are relevant, is you.

You seemed to be ignoring that dream also draw from our experiences, memories, imagination and emotion, all of which exist in both conscious state and subconscious state. You only seem to what to focus on thoughts, alone.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have tried to clear it up, which is to explain as well as provided examples from my own experiences...which is a lot more than what you have done with Dan’s questions.

Plus who are to say what are relevant?

It is relevant to show the differences in brain activities when the mind are in conscious state and subconscious state.

As I have said, in the dream state, the MIND draws on our “memory”, “imagination”, “emotion”, “thought”, and even our “experiences”. The dreams have to come from somewhere, from those parts of our minds.

But as I have said the mind draw upon these in a different state of consciousness - the subconscious state or the dream state.

In this subconscious state, the mind draw out emotion, experiences, imagination, thoughts and memory, involuntarily and unbidden, where we would no conscious control as to what we dream about.

How many more times, must I say that our dreams come when the brains is relaxed when we asleep, and our minds are in “subconscious state”?

But being asleep, don’t mean that there are no brain activities. The brains actually become active when we are dreaming, despite being asleep.

That link you provided show brain activity when dreaming...what it doesn’t show is what in that person’s dream.

So there are two states in which our brains are active: conscious and subconscious.

If anyone is ignoring what are relevant, is you.

You seemed to be ignoring that dream also draw from our experiences, memories, imagination and emotion, all of which exist in both conscious state and subconscious state. You only seem to what to focus on thoughts, alone.

You are making noise about the dream state that I've never disputed. Of course there is brain activity when we are dreaming whilst asleep, it's a no brainer. Even in the dreamless sleep state there would be some residual brain activity. So please let us agree there brain activity both when one is sleeping and when one is awake.

The only question we are discussing is if the thought processes in the awake state the same as the dream processes in the sleep state. I am saying they are different, which is why there are different concepts to make that distinction of brain processes between thoughts and dreams.

Here is the Collins definition of dream....A dream is an imaginary series of events that you experience in your mind while you are asleep. Dream definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Here is the Collins definition of thought process... Thought is the process or act of using your mind to consider or think about something. Thought process definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Now consider, are these distinctions made by Collins inconsistent with what I am claiming that there is a difference, or are you rejecting the distinctions and clinging to the belief that thoughts are dreams.

Please no waffling, do not stray from the single question, are the thought processes in the awake state the same as the dream processes in the sleep state?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have tried to clear it up, which is to explain as well as provided examples from my own experiences...which is a lot more than what you have done with Dan’s questions.

Plus who are to say what are relevant?

It is relevant to show the differences in brain activities when the mind are in conscious state and subconscious state.

As I have said, in the dream state, the MIND draws on our “memory”, “imagination”, “emotion”, “thought”, and even our “experiences”. The dreams have to come from somewhere, from those parts of our minds.

But as I have said the mind draw upon these in a different state of consciousness - the subconscious state or the dream state.

In this subconscious state, the mind draw out emotion, experiences, imagination, thoughts and memory, involuntarily and unbidden, where we would no conscious control as to what we dream about.

How many more times, must I say that our dreams come when the brains is relaxed when we asleep, and our minds are in “subconscious state”?

But being asleep, don’t mean that there are no brain activities. The brains actually become active when we are dreaming, despite being asleep.

That link you provided show brain activity when dreaming...what it doesn’t show is what in that person’s dream.

So there are two states in which our brains are active: conscious and subconscious.

If anyone is ignoring what are relevant, is you.

You seemed to be ignoring that dream also draw from our experiences, memories, imagination and emotion, all of which exist in both conscious state and subconscious state. You only seem to what to focus on thoughts, alone.

And btw gnostic do you accept that the brain operates on different frequencies between the thinking and dreaming mind states, eg., Beta when thinking and Delta when sleeping? If I'm not mistaken, some here don't think there is scientific evidence of such brain waves.

So if the brain operates at different wave lengths between thinking and dreaming, then that is evidence that they are indeed different, yes?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, we do dream about issues in our lives, and yes we do think about issues in our lives, but the reality represented by the concept of thought is not the same as the reality represented by the concept of dream. The reason different concepts apply is because the mind events are not the same. If they were the same, usage of the concept 'thought' would be common when one is referring to a dream, and it isn't despite you and others here who claim they are the same.

I'm not saying they are the same. I'm saying thoughts are involved in generating and interacting within dreams in our minds. Your claim was that we our brains don't think while we're sleeping, which is demonstrably not the case.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So in your previous post, you told about a dream concerning your Dad. How would you like it if everyone who called it fake, if you can't provide evidence then it didn't happen! That is the position you are taking on the things I say to you, which like your dream about Dad, is a subjective experience.

Anyone who has had a dream knows that human beings have dreams. They are a shared experience among human beings. And if someone has never experienced a dream, we can actually look at the brain waves of people while they are dreaming and know they are dreaming. So it's not all the far fetched to believe that someone could dream about their dad. It's also not an extraordinary claim.

Your claim, on the other hand, is extraordinary. You are claiming there is a spiritual realm. Like, an entire realm unknown to everyone, save for a few people who already believe it and make claims like our brains don't think while we sleep, which runs contrary to the known evidence. Our claims are not on the same footing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So on your dream about your Dad, and how does it happen that decisions about your future interaction with Dad were made, please read my post to gnostic #1218 on my prescient dreams.

All I did was think about dreaming about him as I fell asleep. And there he was in my dream. A dream in which I was able to make decisions and take actions.

Haven't you ever watched a movie and then had a dream about it later on when you were sleeping? How do such things happen if as you claim, our brains don't think while we're sleeping?
I'd love for you to answer at least one of my questions.

How can dreams of the future turn out to be accurate, I have a fair idea but it would never mean anything to an atheist because I can not prove any of it. The point is that whatever is going on is not thought, the mind at a deeper level appears to be receiving input from somewhere else rather than from personal memory.

Because we have a lot of experience interacting with the world and therefore a lot of outcomes are predictable.
Even if I don't have an answer to that, the default answer doesn't just become "it must be because spiritual realms exist." You'd still have to demonstrate it.
But if, as you say, our brains don't think while we sleep, I'm wondering how you square that with what you've said here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

All I did was think about dreaming about him as I fell asleep. And there he was in my dream. A dream in which I was able to make decisions and take actions.

Haven't you ever watched a movie and then had a dream about it later on when you were sleeping? How do such things happen if as you claim, our brains don't think while we're sleeping?
I'd love for you to answer at least one of my questions.


Because we have a lot of experience interacting with the world and therefore a lot of outcomes are predictable.
Even if I don't have an answer to that, the default answer doesn't just become "it must be because spiritual realms exist." You'd still have to demonstrate it.
But if, as you say, our brains don't think while we sleep, I'm wondering how you square that with what you've said here.

I had a dream while watching an Elvis movie. In the dream I was Elvis driving his race car. Apparently, I even added sound effects and dialogue that woke up my brother.

While I was sleeping, my mind was aware of my surroundings to some extent and to the point of being influenced by a movie on the television that was left on. The most logical conclusion of this is that thought was occurring.

All of the unsupported claims I am seeing follow the gap hypothesis. Where information is lacking (a gap), persons are filling in the blanks with whatever strikes their fancy the most. There is some Dunning/Kruger in the mix as well.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I have tried to clear it up, which is to explain as well as provided examples from my own experiences...which is a lot more than what you have done with Dan’s questions.

Plus who are to say what are relevant?

It is relevant to show the differences in brain activities when the mind are in conscious state and subconscious state.

As I have said, in the dream state, the MIND draws on our “memory”, “imagination”, “emotion”, “thought”, and even our “experiences”. The dreams have to come from somewhere, from those parts of our minds.

But as I have said the mind draw upon these in a different state of consciousness - the subconscious state or the dream state.

In this subconscious state, the mind draw out emotion, experiences, imagination, thoughts and memory, involuntarily and unbidden, where we would no conscious control as to what we dream about.

How many more times, must I say that our dreams come when the brains is relaxed when we asleep, and our minds are in “subconscious state”?

But being asleep, don’t mean that there are no brain activities. The brains actually become active when we are dreaming, despite being asleep.

That link you provided show brain activity when dreaming...what it doesn’t show is what in that person’s dream.

So there are two states in which our brains are active: conscious and subconscious.

If anyone is ignoring what are relevant, is you.

You seemed to be ignoring that dream also draw from our experiences, memories, imagination and emotion, all of which exist in both conscious state and subconscious state. You only seem to what to focus on thoughts, alone.

I have stopped waiting for answers to my questions. Clearly, they will not be forthcoming. Just waffling and straying from each question.

 

[gnostic]

I have stopped waiting for answers to my questions. Clearly, they will not be forthcoming. Just waffling and straying from each question.

Making claims aren’t explanations.

Making claims aren’t evidence.

Sadly, Ben don’t understand either. And we both know that he didn’t answer your questions, because he confused claims with explanations.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm not saying they are the same. I'm saying thoughts are involved in generating and interacting within dreams in our minds. Your claim was that we our brains don't think while we're sleeping, which is demonstrably not the case.

Thinking involves volition and discretion and consideration on the part of the waking state ego self, this thinking mind's reality is represented by the concept' thinking' and it is not the same reality as represented by the concept 'dreaming.'. I know what you are thinking wrt the imaginary reality of the dream state and the mind's reactions to it, but it not thinking per se, it is the reality represented by the concept 'dream'.

Now if you respond to this post with another 'oh well I'm not saying they are the same', we will leave it at that as we are in complete agreement. But if you insist that you are thinking in your dreams in the same way as when you are awake, then there is no agreement.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

All I did was think about dreaming about him as I fell asleep. And there he was in my dream. A dream in which I was able to make decisions and take actions.

Haven't you ever watched a movie and then had a dream about it later on when you were sleeping? How do such things happen if as you claim, our brains don't think while we're sleeping?
I'd love for you to answer at least one of my questions.

Because we have a lot of experience interacting with the world and therefore a lot of outcomes are predictable.
Even if I don't have an answer to that, the default answer doesn't just become "it must be because spiritual realms exist." You'd still have to demonstrate it.
But if, as you say, our brains don't think while we sleep, I'm wondering how you square that with what you've said here.

Even when we are awake, our mind is not always in the thinking state, our mind can be in the reverie state, it can be in the intuitive mode, an EEG would 'see' brainwaves alter depending on what was going on in the mind. So when we dream in the sleep state, it is different again, but the EEG can't tell us precisely what the mind is involved with.

One doesn't have to raise 'spiritual realms' to understand the more spooky aspects of dreams, such as prescience, etc.. There is such a thing as a collective consciousness, egregores, etc., that our minds are involved with at all times, and from which our minds register input when and if the input is seen as sufficiently important to process. I must say here that like intelligence, some people are smart, others are dumb, so to with so called psychic phenomena, inputs from the collective consciousness, etc., some people minds and hearts are less sensitive than others.

Dreaming is not thinking, the EEG does not lie, the mind is processing data, sometimes even the same data, differently in the sleep state then when awake.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Anyone who has had a dream knows that human beings have dreams. They are a shared experience among human beings. And if someone has never experienced a dream, we can actually look at the brain waves of people while they are dreaming and know they are dreaming. So it's not all the far fetched to believe that someone could dream about their dad. It's also not an extraordinary claim.

Your claim, on the other hand, is extraordinary. You are claiming there is a spiritual realm. Like, an entire realm unknown to everyone, save for a few people who already believe it and make claims like our brains don't think while we sleep, which runs contrary to the known evidence. Our claims are not on the same footing.

There is a spiritual realm, but I do not need to raise that in order to understand how some dreams can be prescient, etc.. As I mentioned above, there is a collective consciousness of humanity. Even a football club has a collective consciousness of sorts, the Catholics, etc., Such collectives may be called egregores, and they act as a sort of group soul, All members are subconsciously inputting data from the collective. Given the more immediate real time processing of priority data in the awake state, the collective priorities are more likely to be processed in the dream state.

I will add that yes, a truly religious soul whose mind is quite centered and at peace with itself, may have input from the spiritual realms.