Near Death Experiences Disolve All Religions

[JayJayDee]

A hallucination can't observe what is happening in the room as some NDE's have reported.

No, but the spirits that inhabit the invisible realm can influence a person's perception of reality.

"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess 2:9-12)

Don't underestimate the devil's ability to make his case convincing....."every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception" is used to fool people into believing his lies. God does not prevent people from falling for this "delusion" and being totally misled, because it is what their heart wants to believe.

What are NDE's designed to do? Can someone show me scripture that says we have an immortal soul and that the dead live on somewhere else after death?

 

[Windwalker]

Don't underestimate the devil's ability to make his case convincing....."every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception" is used to fool people into believing his lies. God does not prevent people from falling for this "delusion" and being totally misled, because it is what their heart wants to believe.

Like believing the truth was restored to some odd-little Christian group in the 1900's and everyone else has it wrong? Like that? Isn't that straying from the Spirit of Truth to someone's ideas of what "truth" is, now that they've got the "right" translation, or something like that?

What are NDE's designed to do? Can someone show me scripture that says we have an immortal soul and that the dead live on somewhere else after death?

What do you mean what are they "designed" to do? They simply are what they are. Can someone show me the scripture that talks about what your toe nails are for? Just because something isn't spelled out in the Bible doesn't mean we can't know something about it through personal experience.

This whole notion that people who experience these sorts of things are encountering the lying devil is complete garbage. If you ever experienced something like this, and you called it the devil, then you indeed would be deceived. Anyone who experiences these are profoundly changed, and what they encounter is good. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit. By their fruit you shall know them. They said Jesus used the devil to cast out devils. Sounds like that's your argument too.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Why are we so certain the afterlife must be uniform?

I'm no more certain of that than that there is only one deity.

 

[JayJayDee]

Like believing the truth was restored to some odd-little Christian group in the 1900's and everyone else has it wrong? Like that? Isn't that straying from the Spirit of Truth to someone's ideas of what "truth" is, now that they've got the "right" translation, or something like that?

You mean like that odd-little Jewish group in the first century who told their fellow Jews that they had it wrong? You mean like that?

What would have happened if no one believed them? Most of the Jews stuck with what they knew and missed out on becoming disciples of Christ and eventually ruling with him in heaven.

Being different is sometimes very important.

What do you mean what are they "designed" to do? They simply are what they are.......Just because something isn't spelled out in the Bible doesn't mean we can't know something about it through personal experience.

Personal experience can be a deception. Ask anyone who suffers with delusions how real their 'experience' is. Satan is a deceiver who can make himself look like "an angel of light". He can make bad look like good and vice versa. God allows people to be deluded by him, if that is their wish. (2 Thess 2:8-12)

NDE's are 'designed' to deceive. Show me in the Bible where it says we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and is capable of conscious existence and interaction with living or dead humans.

If you ever experienced something like this, and you called it the devil, then you indeed would be deceived. Anyone who experiences these are profoundly changed, and what they encounter is good. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit. By their fruit you shall know them. They said Jesus used the devil to cast out devils. Sounds like that's your argument too.

Why would God forbid contact with the spirit world if it was something harmless? (Deut 18:9-12) The spirit realm is not inhabited by deceased humans. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Where in the Bible would I find mention of an NDE?

If 'satan can transform himself into an angel of light' and his 'ministers into ministers of righteousness', could you really tell the difference?

 

[no-body]

Chemicals and psychology. Religions are and interpretation of this through the eyes of the culture of the individual having the spiritual experience.

 

[Windwalker]

You mean like that odd-little Jewish group in the first century who told their fellow Jews that they had it wrong? You mean like that?

So, if someone you encountered standing on the street corner said to you, "I'm am Jesus Christ," would you consider them delusional?

These myriad little Christian cults that arose during the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not something radically new, and not a one of them were truly "the light of world," except in their self-deceptions and marketing ploys to compete with the other cults who all claimed to have the "restored" truth. I consider all of these to be delusional.

What would have happened if no one believed them? Most of the Jews stuck with what they knew and missed out on becoming disciples of Christ and eventually ruling with him in heaven.

Nah, the Truth is always there for anyone to find. They don't need someone "translating" the Bible for them to them to find it.

Being different is sometimes very important.

Yes, but it can also be delusional, like the new Jesus Christ who lives in San Francisco. How, oh how, does someone know they aren't delusional? By reading a book and saying, "See it says here on these pages that I'm right and you're wrong!"? Well, 33,000 different denominations are all doing the same thing. How does one discern? By simply claiming "special insight" because they have the "restored apostles" or some such myth for the purposes of marketing?

Personal experience can be a deception.

Or they can tell you what the real truth is when your mind is deceived! It goes both ways. And here is heart of all of this. When I hear folks like you say misquoting the Bible, "The heart is deceitfully wicked", as to say you cannot trust at all what is in the heart, I hear folks living in an emotional and spiritual dissociation within themselves. They are out of balance. They are out of touch with themselves, and completely vulnerable to deception by any good-enough snake-oil salesman who comes along pulling the wool over their eyes. And they are vulnerable precisely because they do NOT know how to listen to their hearts, how to hear that "still small voice", how to hear, listen, and respond or better still operate within their own intuitions.

To say we cannot trust our hearts by these religious cultists who seek control over their flocks to imprison them, or imprison themselves, is to say the least hypocritical. They have relationships with others. They get married. How can someone say the heart is deceitful wicked, as some absolutist statement, and then turn around I say, "I love you," to their spouses or their children, or their parents? The correct response should be if you were true to this nonsense is, "I cannot trust you love me, nor can I trust I love you, because the heart is deceitful, experience is deceitful. Since I don't see in the Bible that I love you, since it's not spelled out, I think we should not get married and have children. Or at the least not trust that what I feel is real". Oh joy, oh joy!

If experience is deceitful, then your experience of your thoughts is the very first place you should look with distrust. Thoughts are experience too. So your experience of reading and interpreting the words of the Bible should not be trusted. God knows I don't trust them, considering how off their are with natural, healthy, normal human experience.

Ask anyone who suffers with delusions how real their 'experience' is. Satan is a deceiver who can make himself look like "an angel of light". He can make bad look like good and vice versa. God allows people to be deluded by him, if that is their wish. (2 Thess 2:8-12)

Precicesily because they do not know how to trust the heart. They "lean to their own understanding". They rely upon their extremely limited reasoning, coupled with being out of touch with their own spiritual sensibilities, makes them vulnerable to deceptions, such as those who claim they have the "restored truth", and other such claims. This verse applies not to spiritual experience, but cults who prey upon the spiritually vulnerable. They prey upon those who don't have any sense of spiritual grounding or center. They prey upon those who rely on the mind alone and it's fickle reasoning which the unhealthy, denied and dissociated heart pollutes because of its illness imposed upon it by fear of the mind.

They key is not to divorce yourself from the heart, but to strengthen and know it. That is to key to not being deceived by some religious folks who appear as angles of light at your door proclaiming God's kingdom to you.

NDE's are 'designed' to deceive.

How in the hell would you know? They are not "designed" for anything. If they are designed to deceive, then why does it lead people's lives to be changed for the good, and not self-destruction?

You deliberately skipped the verses I quoted by Jesus where he says, "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit, nor a good tree evil fruit". If someone has an NDE, and their lives a changed permanently to live good, fruitful, compassion, loving lives, both in themselves and to others, then how is it you then come along an assert out of thin air, that they are "designed to deceive".

Reconcile this first before you attempt to deceive yourself make such unsupportable claims.

Show me in the Bible where it says we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and is capable of conscious existence and interaction with living or dead humans.

Where did Jesus go for 3 days after death?

Besides, NDE's are not about theologies. They don't prove any doctrines. They are simply profound, life-altering experiences that show that how we normally think about the world is unbelievably limited in scope. And yet, you call anyone but yourself deceived. That's the irony.

Why would God forbid contact with the spirit world if it was something harmless? (Deut 18:9-12) The spirit realm is not inhabited by deceased humans. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Where in the Bible would I find mention of an NDE?

Umm.... didn't Jesus and his disciples see and talk to Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration? Oops... if they were true disciples they should have stoned Jesus to death on the spot for communing with the dead!

Perhaps your understanding of the Bible is what is off here?

If 'satan can transform himself into an angel of light' and his 'ministers into ministers of righteousness', could you really tell the difference?

Yes! Yes, you can! Do you know how? I explained it in this post. See if you can find it in there.

 

[ametist]

what we have as the religions on physial side are like the distorted image of what is over there across the border. The religions come down passing through a collective consciousness barrier of humanity. I agree a lot that it is mostly about compassion, love when we are on the other side facing the actual image.

 

[Thief]

what we have as the religions on physial side are like the distorted image of what is over there across the border. The religions come down passing through a collective consciousness barrier of humanity. I agree a lot that it is mostly about compassion, love when we are on the other side facing the actual image.

I cannot agree.
There is discipline dealt in this life.
How much more in the next?

I believe the peace of heaven is guarded.
Not all enter in.

 

[Windwalker]

I cannot agree.
There is discipline dealt in this life.
How much more in the next?

"For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now we know in part, but then we shall know even as we are known".

If one is liberated from the flesh, what are we needing to master?

I believe the peace of heaven is guarded.
Not all enter in.

That much can be known here by looking at those who shut themselves out of it. But it's not guarded against entry, it's doors are fully open, and in fact there never where any doors whatsoever, we discover. People don't wish to see out of fear. And that's all it is. People imagine it's the devil over there, so they first tell themselves and subsequently create theologies to support their separation and prevent themselves from entering within.

 

[JayJayDee]

So, if someone you encountered standing on the street corner said to you, "I'm am Jesus Christ," would you consider them delusional?

Did Jesus say he was coming again on a street corner?

Delusional?...yes I would think so. I am looking for the Jesus who is "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"....aren't you?

These myriad little Christian cults that arose during the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not something radically new, and not a one of them were truly "the light of world," except in their self-deceptions and marketing ploys to compete with the other cults who all claimed to have the "restored" truth. I consider all of these to be delusional.

You are free to consider whatever you wish.

If you read the parable of the 'wheat and the weeds' you will see that counterfeit Christianity was to be sown in the same field as the "sons of the kingdom". The devil sowed these counterfeits, who resembled the wheat at first. Both were permitted to grow together until the harvest time, when the two would not resemble one another at all. We are not looking for true Christianity to be in any way similar to the fake one, which has been fractured into thousands of bickering sects. (1 Cor 1:10)

Christendom began with the establishment of Roman Catholicism and continued to be carved up by the churches that came out of the reformation. It was foretold that Christianity was going to apostatize, just like the Jews did. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Tim 4:3-5)

It didn't happen recently. :sad:

Nah, the Truth is always there for anyone to find. They don't need someone "translating" the Bible for them to them to find it.

In the account of the Ethiopian eunuch, Phillip was instructed to interpret scripture for this man who was reading from the book of Isaiah but not understanding what he was reading.....
"So the spirit said to Philip: “Go over and approach this chariot.” 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him." (Acts 8:29-31)

We do need guidance to understand the scriptures. God has always provided such guidance through his human servants.

Yes, but it can also be delusional, like the new Jesus Christ who lives in San Francisco. How, oh how, does someone know they aren't delusional? By reading a book and saying, "See it says here on these pages that I'm right and you're wrong!"? Well, 33,000 different denominations are all doing the same thing. How does one discern? By simply claiming "special insight" because they have the "restored apostles" or some such myth for the purposes of marketing?

You already said how you tell the difference....."by their fruits". Don't look at what they say...look at what they do. Look at what they teach and look at the kinds of people they produce. They are not practicers of what God condemns and they will not be found with weapons or blood on their hands. (1 John 4:20, 21; 2 Cor 10:3-5)

Or they can tell you what the real truth is when your mind is deceived! It goes both ways. And here is heart of all of this. When I hear folks like you say misquoting the Bible, "The heart is deceitfully wicked", as to say you cannot trust at all what is in the heart, I hear folks living in an emotional and spiritual dissociation within themselves. They are out of balance. They are out of touch with themselves, and completely vulnerable to deception by any good-enough snake-oil salesman who comes along pulling the wool over their eyes. And they are vulnerable precisely because they do NOT know how to listen to their hearts, how to hear that "still small voice", how to hear, listen, and respond or better still operate within their own intuitions.

The apostle Paul made an interesting comment. He said "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

You will notice that only "unbelievers" can be deceived by the devil in this way. These will not respond to the good news because their minds have been blinded. The heart cannot be motivated correctly by a blinded mind. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

To say we cannot trust our hearts by these religious cultists who seek control over their flocks to imprison them, or imprison themselves, is to say the least hypocritical.

I don't happen to belong to a "cult" any more than the first Christians did, so your definition does not apply to me. It is the devil who seeks to 'control' not God.

The scriptures themselves admit that the heart is treacherous (Jer 17:9)....it is prone to justification to get its way. To deny this exhibits 'blindness' IMO.

 

[JayJayDee]

They have relationships with others. They get married. How can someone say the heart is deceitful wicked, as some absolutist statement, and then turn around I say, "I love you," to their spouses or their children, or their parents? The correct response should be if you were true to this nonsense is, "I cannot trust you love me, nor can I trust I love you, because the heart is deceitful, experience is deceitful. Since I don't see in the Bible that I love you, since it's not spelled out, I think we should not get married and have children. Or at the least not trust that what I feel is real". Oh joy, oh joy!

How many relationships end because people allowed their heart to rule their head? How many people stay true to their mates in this world of today? How many have had their trust betrayed by one who purported to love them?
The love that the world knows is not 'agape'....this is the love that denies self.
Love and trust must be earned and once lost, they are hard to get back.

If experience is deceitful, then your experience of your thoughts is the very first place you should look with distrust. Thoughts are experience too. So your experience of reading and interpreting the words of the Bible should not be trusted. God knows I don't trust them, considering how off their are with natural, healthy, normal human experience.

I cannot vouch for your experience, but my own mind and heart are trained never to trust imperfect human thinking and inclinations. We are told to trust God and his word...not our own. (Prov 3:5, 6 as you mentioned)

Precicesily because they do not know how to trust the heart. They "lean to their own understanding". They rely upon their extremely limited reasoning, coupled with being out of touch with their own spiritual sensibilities, makes them vulnerable to deceptions, such as those who claim they have the "restored truth", and other such claims. This verse applies not to spiritual experience, but cults who prey upon the spiritually vulnerable. They prey upon those who don't have any sense of spiritual grounding or center. They prey upon those who rely on the mind alone and it's fickle reasoning which the unhealthy, denied and dissociated heart pollutes because of its illness imposed upon it by fear of the mind.

I have no doubt that such cults exist, but I do not belong to one.

The prophet Daniel foretold that in "the time of the end" there would be 'a cleansing, whitening and refining' of God's worshippers. (Dan 12:9, 10) Those who refused the cleansing would not be granted 'understanding' of anything. Knowledge was to become abundant at this time. We are living in that period now. The cleansing, whitening and refining have been completed...but not in Christendom, who refuses to change her ways. Christendom is the modern day counterpart to first century Judaism. They have followed exactly the same course....substituting the traditions of men for the word of God.

They key is not to divorce yourself from the heart, but to strengthen and know it. That is to key to not being deceived by some religious folks who appear as angles of light at your door proclaiming God's kingdom to you.

And yet "the good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations"....before the foretold "end" of the present age was to come. Jesus said that the messengers who carried this witness would be ignored and even ridiculed just like Noah was. (Matt 24:26-39)

All are free to make up their own minds about this message. If you have made up your mind, then so be it. It is after all about choices. If there were no choices to be made, then no global witness would be necessary.

How many people come to your door with the message of the kingdom? Are they carrying out this commission in every nation?
Jesus told us to "search" for "worthy ones" and then teach them and make disciples of them. (Matt 10:11-15; 28:19, 20; Acts 5;42; 20;20)

How in the hell would you know? They are not "designed" for anything. If they are designed to deceive, then why does it lead people's lives to be changed for the good, and not self-destruction?

The devil has no interest in our death....he wants our worship and he will get it by deception. He's masquerading as "an angel of light" so people are not going to see through his imitation of the original. Why do you suppose that "few" are actually on the right track? (Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23)

You deliberately skipped the verses I quoted by Jesus where he says, "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit, nor a good tree evil fruit". If someone has an NDE, and their lives a changed permanently to live good, fruitful, compassion, loving lives, both in themselves and to others, then how is it you then come along an assert out of thin air, that they are "designed to deceive".

If they are persuaded to stay in Christendom because of a false belief in an immortal soul, then he has gained a victory.

Reconcile this first before you attempt to deceive yourself make such unsupportable claims.

I think I just did.

Where did Jesus go for 3 days after death?

Exactly where he said he went. He told the Pharisees that he would be "in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights" just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish. (Matt 12:38-40) Where was Jonah for three days? Confined inside a fish. Christ was confined inside the grave. He was dead in his tomb, not resurrected for three days.

Besides, NDE's are not about theologies. They don't prove any doctrines. They are simply profound, life-altering experiences that show that how we normally think about the world is unbelievably limited in scope. And yet, you call anyone but yourself deceived. That's the irony.

NDE's are designed to prove that humans survive death. The Bible says that the dead "sleep" with no conscious existence at all. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

Umm.... didn't Jesus and his disciples see and talk to Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration? Oops... if they were true disciples they should have stoned Jesus to death on the spot for communing with the dead!

Perhaps your understanding of the Bible is what is off here?

Or perhaps yours is? Jesus said that the transfiguration was a vision, not an actual appearance of the dead prophets, who were still in their graves. (Matt 17:9) The Christ was transfigured in a glorious body and was seen communing with Moses and Elijah who represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which attested to the coming of the Christ.

Since Peter was going to erect tents for these ones, they were not seen to be spirits but physically resurrected back to the earth, according to Jewish belief. Jesus himself was raised in the spirit but manifested in the flesh. If he had appeared as a spirit, they would have been stumbled. The Jews were forbidden to contact the spirit realm. (Deut 18:9-12)

 

[Windwalker]

Delusional?...yes I would think so. I am looking for the Jesus who is "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"....aren't you?

No, delusional is when you think you've got the truth and everyone else is deceived. It has nothing to do with the symbols of religion one uses.

You are free to consider whatever you wish.

If you read the parable of the 'wheat and the weeds' you will see that counterfeit Christianity was to be sown in the same field as the "sons of the kingdom". The devil sowed these counterfeits, who resembled the wheat at first. Both were permitted to grow together until the harvest time, when the two would not resemble one another at all. We are not looking for true Christianity to be in any way similar to the fake one, which has been fractured into thousands of bickering sects. (1 Cor 1:10)

Christendom began with the establishment of Roman Catholicism and continued to be carved up by the churches that came out of the reformation. It was foretold that Christianity was going to apostatize, just like the Jews did. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Tim 4:3-5)

Every cult out there quotes these same verses to say they're right and everyone else is wrong. I know these verses well, as the little cult I was in used the same ones, and they were all born out of that same period of time in the United States in American history. They're all delusional in that same way, really.

It has nothing to do with the "last days" and Jesus Christ, but has everything to do with American revivalism, unique to North America's children of immigrants in the New World wave out in that period of time in which our great grandparents were swept up in. The "Great Disappointment" in what led to all these little "restored church" notions with their own prophets and apostles spawning up all over the place trying to find the "real truth", now that Jesus didn't come like everyone was hoping for in 1844. Everyone was looking for something "real" coming out of their immigrant parents religion from the Old World.

You just need to look at history and see the patterns. It's unique to American history, and is not some sort of Joel 2 prophecy of the end times, but a reading-back into scripture someone's own image of what they imagine the truth is. My great grandfather got swept up into one of these "last days" Utopian experiments, and the JW's are nothing but another product of those days, along with a string of others proclaiming the coming kingdom. They're all exactly the same thing beneath the minor little surface differences of "But our Bible is Yellow, and their's is Red!", sort of claims to being the right one in the pack. They're all doing the exact same thing and what they believe in is entirely incidental and unimportant.

In the account of the Ethiopian eunuch, Phillip was instructed to interpret scripture for this man who was reading from the book of Isaiah but not understanding what he was reading.....

I said knowing the Truth, not gaining insight into a passage of scripture. If you want to look at it that way, if the person who is teaching it themselves is unenlightened, then its a case of the blind leading the blind and both falling into the ditch!

The truth is, if you are looking at spiritual truths in scripture, they can be understood many different ways, and all of them entirely valid. Think of it like the reflections of light off a jewel buried in the sand. It can be seen from many angles and a new a different light emerges with a new an different beauty. To say "This is what the Bible says", is to take a living, dynamic, organic Truth, and to reduce it to a flat, two-dimensional belief. So these "Bible studies" to tell you what scripture says, is really misguided on so very many levels. It says what your eyes can see, and if your eyes cannot see, then no amount of "teaching" will reveal that to you - let alone from those who themselves are blind.

We do need guidance to understand the scriptures. God has always provided such guidance through his human servants.

No. We see by the Spirit, not by the teachings of men. No amount of teaching can penetrate a closed mind and heart. It needs to be opened first in order to see. And how can it be when we are stuck looking outside ourselves to be "told" what is Truth? We are never looking in the right place, which is itself an avoidance of the Truth. Being a "true believer", being in the "true restored church!", is the most cunning way of all to avoid it.

The apostle Paul made an interesting comment. He said "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

You will notice that only "unbelievers" can be deceived by the devil in this way. These will not respond to the good news because their minds have been blinded. The heart cannot be motivated correctly by a blinded mind. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

Actually, I see the "true believers" as these 'unbelievers' Paul speaks of. The sort of faith that allows illumination of Spirit through, is one that is open to it, not one who has it figured out and sit smugly congratulating themselves on finding it.

The mind is blinded by the heart. A heart that fears, will blind the mind. A heart that trusts, will open the mind. It's that simple. You cannot put new wine into the old wine skins of a mind shut off because the heart is closed, or rancid. Smugness, self-righteousness begins with a heart thing, and the mind follows, deceiving itself it knows Truth.

"Make clean the inside of the cup first," say Jesus. How we believe follows the heart.

I don't happen to belong to a "cult" any more than the first Christians did, so your definition does not apply to me. It is the devil who seeks to 'control' not God.

This is exactly the same words, and excuse the cult I was in used. It is people in charge of religions that seek control over others using the Bible to control and manipulate them, such as saying "Don't trust your heart! if you doubt, it's the devil!!!". No, that doubt may actually be God asking you to doubt what you're being told because you have some growing yet ahead of you.

The scriptures themselves admit that the heart is treacherous (Jer 17:9)....it is prone to justification to get its way. To deny this exhibits 'blindness' IMO.

What a rotten interpretation. The is referring to being led by your lusts and selfish interests, not being led by the Spirit. And the Spirit transforms the heart! If you heart is true, then you will not be deceived. It's that simple.

But if you don't know the heart, and are looking for Answers outside yourself, for someone to teach you what to believe in - well, that's going to open you up to all manner of marketers hawking their wares to you! In fact, it comes right back to what I said before, people who seek others, religions, to tell them what Truth is, are doing a subtle avoidance of God altogether, through ironically "seeking God". Wanting to believe, and allowing Truth to arise in you are entirely two different animals.

Are you unaware of the myriad verses in scripture that speak about the heart needing to be listened to? Why do you seize upon the one misapplied as you do that supports your fear of looking within? It hurts my spirit deeply every time I hear someone take that verse out to deny the heart its voice in their lives.

We avoid God by seeking for the truth in what others say. We avoid ourselves.

 

[JayJayDee]

No, delusional is when you think you've got the truth and everyone else is deceived. It has nothing to do with the symbols of religion one uses.

I am confused...you said..."So, if someone you encountered standing on the street corner said to you, "I'm am Jesus Christ," would you consider them delusional?"

You wouldn't consider this person delusional?

Every cult out there quotes these same verses to say they're right and everyone else is wrong. I know these verses well, as the little cult I was in used the same ones, and they were all born out of that same period of time in the United States in American history. They're all delusional in that same way, really.

If you think so, but just remember that the first Christians were such a "cult" to the Jews of the day.

It has nothing to do with the "last days" and Jesus Christ, but has everything to do with American revivalism, unique to North America's children of immigrants in the New World wave out in that period of time in which our great grandparents were swept up in. The "Great Disappointment" in what led to all these little "restored church" notions with their own prophets and apostles spawning up all over the place trying to find the "real truth", now that Jesus didn't come like everyone was hoping for in 1844. Everyone was looking for something "real" coming out of their immigrant parents religion from the Old World.

The "great disappointment" never went away for some, but it was at least understood by some who persevered with their study of the scriptures and eliminated from their worship all the pagan doctrines and practices that had been adopted by Christendom. It was a process, not a revelation. 'Cleansing and refining' take time.

You just need to look at history and see the patterns. It's unique to American history, and is not some sort of Joel 2 prophecy of the end times, but a reading-back into scripture someone's own image of what they imagine the truth is.

Again I have to say that satan is mimic. You've heard the old story of how to hide a 40ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field?

My great grandfather got swept up into one of these "last days" Utopian experiments, and the JW's are nothing but another product of those days, along with a string of others proclaiming the coming kingdom. They're all exactly the same thing beneath the minor little surface differences of "But our Bible is Yellow, and their's is Red!", sort of claims to being the right one in the pack. They're all doing the exact same thing and what they believe in is entirely incidental and unimportant.

If you wish to believe that, you are welcome to do so.

What clinches it for me is that JW's are entirely different, not only in their understanding of the Bible's overall theme, and Jesus role as Redeemer, but they are unique in that every single Witness of Jehovah is an actual "witness". All Christians are told to be "witnesses", yet how many are out there searching for the lost sheep as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-15; 24:14; 28:19, 20) I look for the evidence of actions not just empty words.

There is no other organization on earth who can claim to have every member actively preaching the "good news" about God's kingdom "in all the inhabited earth". Most churches have no idea what God's kingdom actually is. Ask them for a definition. They are hard pressed to give you one. Ask them how it "comes" and you will again get a vague response with something about it being "within you". This is not what the Bible teaches. (2 Tim 2:16, 17)

I said knowing the Truth, not gaining insight into a passage of scripture. If you want to look at it that way, if the person who is teaching it themselves is unenlightened, then its a case of the blind leading the blind and both falling into the ditch!

Yes Jesus agrees with you.
But he also appointed men to teach. So you must be discerning about who your teachers are. Look at what they teach and then look at what they do about it themselves. "By their fruits"

The truth is, if you are looking at spiritual truths in scripture, they can be understood many different ways, and all of them entirely valid. Think of it like the reflections of light off a jewel buried in the sand. It can be seen from many angles and a new a different light emerges with a new an different beauty. To say "This is what the Bible says", is to take a living, dynamic, organic Truth, and to reduce it to a flat, two-dimensional belief. So these "Bible studies" to tell you what scripture says, is really misguided on so very many levels. It says what your eyes can see, and if your eyes cannot see, then no amount of "teaching" will reveal that to you - let alone from those who themselves are blind.

That negates every teacher of scripture, including the apostles. Jesus was a teacher who answered the devil's challenge with "It is written". Since I believe that the Bible is the word of God, then I believe that we all need help to understand its teachings. God provides that help IMO....but beware of imposters.

The Jews met every week to have the scriptures read and explained. (Neh 8:7, 8) God has always instructed people about his word. Keeping the Law of Moses was an integral part of their worship. Reading of scripture was done in the synagogue. (Luke 4:16-21)

No. We see by the Spirit, not by the teachings of men. No amount of teaching can penetrate a closed mind and heart.

I couldn't agree more.

It needs to be opened first in order to see. And how can it be when we are stuck looking outside ourselves to be "told" what is Truth? We are never looking in the right place, which is itself an avoidance of the Truth. Being a "true believer", being in the "true restored church!", is the most cunning way of all to avoid it.

Well, I look at it this way.....'no one comes to the son' without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) That way 'the reader of hearts' can tell when someone is searching for the truth and when he sees a right heart, free from malice and with a genuine love of the truth, he will "draw" that person. Jesus said that his 'sheep would hear his voice'...so everyone will be exactly where they need to be on judgment day. I believe that God chooses us before we choose him.

 

[JayJayDee]

Actually, I see the "true believers" as these 'unbelievers' Paul speaks of. The sort of faith that allows illumination of Spirit through, is one that is open to it, not one who has it figured out and sit smugly congratulating themselves on finding it.

Since it doesn't depend upon us, there is nothing to be smug about. We are too busy searching for the lost sheep to sit around being smug about any of it. We are "good for nothing slaves, what we have done is what we ought to have done". (Luke 17:7-10)

The mind is blinded by the heart. A heart that fears, will blind the mind. A heart that trusts, will open the mind. It's that simple. You cannot put new wine into the old wine skins of a mind shut off because the heart is closed, or rancid. Smugness, self-righteousness begins with a heart thing, and the mind follows, deceiving itself it knows Truth.

And yet we are told to be "God-fearing". This is not a morbid fear but a fear of displeasing our Father. It is those who have no fear of God who cannot please him.

"Make clean the inside of the cup first," say Jesus. How we believe follows the heart.

The inside of the cup in this instance was the worship of the Pharisees. They were all pious on the outside like "whitewashed graves" but their hearts were wicked. Cleansing the outside of the cup was an easy pretense but cleansing the inside was not what they wanted to do. Men pleasers have no place in God's kingdom. We are not free to dictate the terms of our worship. Obedience to God's commands is not negotiable.

This is exactly the same words, and excuse the cult I was in used. It is people in charge of religions that seek control over others using the Bible to control and manipulate them, such as saying "Don't trust your heart! if you doubt, it's the devil!!!". No, that doubt may actually be God asking you to doubt what you're being told because you have some growing yet ahead of you.

I agree this is the case in a lot of "Christian" sects, but there is no "control" with JW's. The ones who take the lead in our HQ don't live the high life. They are modest men who live a modest life of self sacrifice. We have no leaders, just servants.

What a rotten interpretation. The is referring to being led by your lusts and selfish interests, not being led by the Spirit. And the Spirit transforms the heart! If you heart is true, then you will not be deceived. It's that simple.

Makes you wonder about how many actually have "true hearts" then doesn't it?
God knows...we don't. "Being led by the spirit" for some is more about being led by their own inclinations rather than following the truth of God's word. If all who profess to be 'led by the spirit' actually were, there would be no sectarianism. But Christendom is fractured into thousands of bickering sects who all claim to be "led by the spirit". Who is?

We all choose the path we think is the right one. From God's perspective, the path we choose tells him all about us. We then place ourselves into one of only two categories...sheep or goats. Only God knows which is which.

But if you don't know the heart, and are looking for Answers outside yourself, for someone to teach you what to believe in - well, that's going to open you up to all manner of marketers hawking their wares to you! In fact, it comes right back to what I said before, people who seek others, religions, to tell them what Truth is, are doing a subtle avoidance of God altogether, through ironically "seeking God". Wanting to believe, and allowing Truth to arise in you are entirely two different animals.

What did Jesus tell us? "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free".

I knew the ring of the truth the moment I heard it. It set my soul on fire. I was hungry for more...I still am. I have never lost my zeal for it.
When JW's preach, they do it for the rest of their lives. God will tell us when to stop.

Are you unaware of the myriad verses in scripture that speak about the heart needing to be listened to? Why do you seize upon the one misapplied as you do that supports your fear of looking within? It hurts my spirit deeply every time I hear someone take that verse out to deny the heart its voice in their lives.

I am under no delusion about the treacherous nature of the heart. It led the first humans into rebellion, each disobeying a direct command of God because of the choices made in their hearts. Both, for entirely different reasons. Someone influenced those decisions...someone whose own heart had led him astray. Don't kid yourself about this traitor in your bosom.

We avoid God by seeking for the truth in what others say. We avoid ourselves.

Sometimes our own heart is standing between us and God. Selfish concerns take precedence over pleasing God and obeying him. The heart is the seat of desire...it has a mind of its own. People demonstrate that every day....unless you live on a different planet to me????

 

[Thief]

"For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now we know in part, but then we shall know even as we are known".

If one is liberated from the flesh, what are we needing to master?


That much can be known here by looking at those who shut themselves out of it. But it's not guarded against entry, it's doors are fully open, and in fact there never where any doors whatsoever, we discover. People don't wish to see out of fear. And that's all it is. People imagine it's the devil over there, so they first tell themselves and subsequently create theologies to support their separation and prevent themselves from entering within.

I have a scenario for that.....(been living with it for years)

Picture the last hour having come and gone.....you are standing....naked.

That Door everyone talks about is nearby.....nothing else.

So...as you approach, you overcome your personal embarrassment
and raise your hand to knock on that Door.

A voice behind you speaks....
Nay!....to knock on that Door is betrayal to me!

Some people realizing the situation will throw themselves upon that Door
and beat upon it.

Some people realizing the situation will summon their courage and raise their hand to knock, again.

"Nay!...it is betrayal to me!
Sure...it is written....Knock and the Door will open.
Sure....they will let you in.
But won't they look you over?....as they did me.
And won't they throw out?...as they did me.

And then you can deal with me......Traitor!"

 

[Windwalker]

I am confused...you said..."So, if someone you encountered standing on the street corner said to you, "I'm am Jesus Christ," would you consider them delusional?"

You wouldn't consider this person delusional?

There's a story told where I believe it was the great Eastern mystic/philosopher Krishnamurti visited a man in a psychiatric ward who told him he was the Christ. Krishnamurti replied to him, "But I am the Christ too. We all are the Christ", and the young man looked bewildered at him and said, "No, you can't be because I am the Christ." To which Krishnamurti responded, "And that's why you're locked up in here, and I'm not."

"We are the restored church, and everyone else is lost", is the same sort of delusion. Yes, that man was delusional, and yes people who believe they alone hold the truth and the keys to the kingdom of heaven are also delusional in the same way. We all hold the keys.

The "great disappointment" never went away for some, but it was at least understood by some who persevered with their study of the scriptures and eliminated from their worship all the pagan doctrines and practices that had been adopted by Christendom. It was a process, not a revelation. 'Cleansing and refining' take time.

Yes, this is nothing more than a continuation of that "revising" that was and has been going on ever since the Big Mistake to try to make it fit. The error is and was at the very outset, not in its predictions or subsequent revisions to make the error in the first place right. Why did anyone stop to say that was the mistake itself, not how they tried to make the rest fit? They're still making the same mistake. In other words, the entire premise itself is flawed.

Again I have to say that satan is mimic. You've heard the old story of how to hide a 40ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field?

This is an excuse. Satan cannot mimic the fruits of the spirit. All of them look at your group and call it a mimic, while you look at theirs and call theirs a mimic. What are you folks looking at? Interpretations? Pots calling the kettles black, one and all.

What clinches it for me is that JW's are entirely different, not only in their understanding of the Bible's overall theme, and Jesus role as Redeemer, but they are unique in that every single Witness of Jehovah is an actual "witness". All Christians are told to be "witnesses", yet how many are out there searching for the lost sheep as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-15; 24:14; 28:19, 20) I look for the evidence of actions not just empty words.

Yep, the exact same sort of words our little cult said about itself too! We too were "entirely different". We rejected the Trinity just like yours, but in a different way. We had the "right" baptism formula, the right prayers, the right blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..... And we too found all the 'evidences' that made us distinct from all the "lost souls" out there we needed to reach with our witnessing and all that. You're not so different. Don't fool yourself. It's an illusion of security. It's all a self-deception.

There is no other organization on earth who can claim to have every member actively preaching the "good news" about God's kingdom "in all the inhabited earth". Most churches have no idea what God's kingdom actually is. Ask them for a definition. They are hard pressed to give you one. Ask them how it "comes" and you will again get a vague response with something about it being "within you". This is not what the Bible teaches. (2 Tim 2:16, 17)

Yes, yes, same things I've heard from within another group. Different faces, same language, same underlying beliefs about themselves. Same song, different singers. Or whatever other metaphor you wish to use to convey this.

"You can't be the Christ, because I am", and hence why they lock him away as delusional.

Yes Jesus agrees with you.
But he also appointed men to teach. So you must be discerning about who your teachers are. Look at what they teach and then look at what they do about it themselves. "By their fruits"

Look at what they teach? What are the fruits of the spirit, and do you see doctrinal correctness listed among them?

The only teaching that supports the fruits of the spirit is love. Correct interpretations of the Book of Revelation has squat to do with this. Anyone who teaches to, "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself", is teaching the Truth, and those who fulfill this are living the Truth in its fulness. And it does not matter what church, or what religion, or lack of the above one affiliates with.

That negates every teacher of scripture, including the apostles. Jesus was a teacher who answered the devil's challenge with "It is written". Since I believe that the Bible is the word of God, then I believe that we all need help to understand its teachings. God provides that help IMO....but beware of imposters.

You think Jesus relied on the scripture to know the Truth? I don't. Not at all. I believe that Truth was known firsthand, from within, and without. And knowing that Truth, then when once reads scripture or anything in the world that God has touched, such as the "lilies of the field", one can see and hear God in everything. Don't mistake him quote scripture to make his point, as saying you have to read it exclusively to find the Truth.

Man, that's really reading into it our own desire to find it outside ourselves!

An Episcopalian priest I'm familiar with was asked at her ordination if she believed 'Scripture contained all things necessary unto salvation'. She responded saying, "Certainly", and then later clarified, "But I also believe a rock contains all things necessary unto salvation too." I agree with this. If someone can see God, that person can see God, and hear God, in everything - even the error of those who think they alone hold the truth.

The Jews met every week to have the scriptures read and explained. (Neh 8:7, 8) God has always instructed people about his word. Keeping the Law of Moses was an integral part of their worship. Reading of scripture was done in the synagogue. (Luke 4:16-21)

I'll call your Nehemiah and raise you a Hebrews 10:16-22:

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Written on the heart does not mean rote memorization. It means a living truth, and scripture is written, moment to moment, in a dynamic, creative unfolding of the Living Truth within us. "It is written" is not something in the past you read about, but is "being written" in the moment. This is not something you can teach to another. You are, the Teacher. And that is not something learned in a classroom or a church or a Bible-study group, but realized in the Spirit.

Hence why I say, the whole affair for these who claim to hold the truth, who claim to have to correct interpretation and whatnot, are externalizing the entire thing, and are in flat contradiction with what Hebrews says about it being written on the heart, not the pages of a book scrutinized by scholars, translators, and whatnot. Written on the heart, not memorized with the head.

Well, I look at it this way.....'no one comes to the son' without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) That way 'the reader of hearts' can tell when someone is searching for the truth and when he sees a right heart, free from malice and with a genuine love of the truth, he will "draw" that person. Jesus said that his 'sheep would hear his voice'...so everyone will be exactly where they need to be on judgment day. I believe that God chooses us before we choose him.

The day of judgment is every day. And I do agree, everyone is where they need to be on their path. There is no 'special invitation' to select individuals, but everyone is always called by virtue of the fact we are living beings. The end is not to convert to a religion, but to become that Living Truth, fully realized in ourselves.

I'm going to spend some time focused on the true crux of this matter which is looking at the heart and what fear really means in a later post. All of the above is to deal with this lesser view of "we have the real truth" idea and to show that's hardly true, and that to hold that tightly does really constitute a certain self-delusion. All such claims stem from the heart.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Love to hear your thoughts on where your religions fit into NDE's

Not sure religions "fit into" NDE and not the other way around

While I've heard and seen many accounts of NDEs, and much analysis, I've not studied it in exhaustive detail. I have not noticed cases or discussion that specifically connect to my "religion" of animism/shamanism. Not to say they aren't there, I just haven't noticed it.

That said, the descriptions of most NDEs, if stripped of their cultural and individual details, tend to resemble shamanic journeying (tunnels, bright light/spiritual beings, ancestors, other significant spirits). The initial journey reported for many or most shamans often takes place in a context of extreme illness or other bodily duress, and often results in the individual "experiencing" death and dismemberment of their body/spirit body, followed by its reassembly by a powerful spirit-being. The presence of deceased ancestors fit well with animism, because many if not most animistic cultures believe the ancestors continue on in the spirit-realm.

So, I don't think NDEs "dissolve" my religion, but rather would seem to be central to it.:yes:

 

[JayJayDee]

"We are the restored church, and everyone else is lost", is the same sort of delusion. Yes, that man was delusional, and yes people who believe they alone hold the truth and the keys to the kingdom of heaven are also delusional in the same way. We all hold the keys.

Well, we all have equal opportunity to respond to the preaching of the good news. According to Jesus, it forms the basis for judgment. (Matt 24:14) The "witness" we receive either attracts us or repels us. Since Jesus used the days of Noah as a model for the time of the end, when he comes as judge and executioner, how many did he indicate would actually be attracted to the message? (Matt 24:36-39)

Would you like to argue with him?

Yes, this is nothing more than a continuation of that "revising" that was and has been going on ever since the Big Mistake to try to make it fit. The error is and was at the very outset, not in its predictions or subsequent revisions to make the error in the first place right. Why did anyone stop to say that was the mistake itself, not how they tried to make the rest fit? They're still making the same mistake. In other words, the entire premise itself is flawed.

Again, you are free to believe that if you wish. But the "last days" of the present system are staring us in the face right now. All the features of the sign Jesus gave to indicate his "presence" (parousia) have been in evidence since the First World War....100 years ago. (Matt 24:2-14; Luke 21:34-36)

This is an excuse. Satan cannot mimic the fruits of the spirit.

Satan can mimic everything, just not perfectly. He can't raise the dead, but he can cause people to babble in 'tongues', (those who aren't faking) and to be 'slain in the spirit' (whatever that is) or to be convinced that they have been healed of some awful disease etc.

All of them look at your group and call it a mimic, while you look at theirs and call theirs a mimic. What are you folks looking at? Interpretations? Pots calling the kettles black, one and all.

The one thing that cannot be overlooked is that the wheat exist along with the weeds. Both are growing together in the same field. So it isn't one and all.

Yep, the exact same sort of words our little cult said about itself too! We too were "entirely different". We rejected the Trinity just like yours, but in a different way. We had the "right" baptism formula, the right prayers, the right blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..... And we too found all the 'evidences' that made us distinct from all the "lost souls" out there we needed to reach with our witnessing and all that. You're not so different. Don't fool yourself. It's an illusion of security. It's all a self-deception.

And I have no doubt that all of that is true. But the wheat still exist...they are few....they worship God alone, like Christ did. They hold all scripture to be inspired and they are preachers "in all the inhabited earth". "By their fruits" I have identified God's people for myself, just as everyone must.

Yes, yes, same things I've heard from within another group. Different faces, same language, same underlying beliefs about themselves. Same song, different singers. Or whatever other metaphor you wish to use to convey this.

I believe the identification of "Babylon the great" is crucial at this point in time. God warns his people to "get out of her" so as not to 'share in her sins and receive part of her plagues'. (Rev 18:4, 5) If we cannot identify her and extract ourselves from her, we will perish with her.

Look at what they teach? What are the fruits of the spirit, and do you see doctrinal correctness listed among them?

Do you see the fruits of the spirit demonstrated in churches who continue to support doctrines and festivals that originated in paganism; (2 Cor 6:14-18) who spill blood in the wars of their nations with the blessing of their clergy? (Matt 5:43, 44; 1 John 4:20, 21) "By their fruits" they demonstrate who their god is.

Doctrinal correctness? Yes! To the Pharisees Jesus said, "So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.  You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me.  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’" (Matt 15:6-9; Isa 29:13)

Doctrinal correctness was important.

The only teaching that supports the fruits of the spirit is love. Correct interpretations of the Book of Revelation has squat to do with this. Anyone who teaches to, "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself", is teaching the Truth, and those who fulfill this are living the Truth in its fulness. And it does not matter what church, or what religion, or lack of the above one affiliates with.

You are entitled to think so. The scriptures disagree with your position.
Even godless humanitarians can love their neighbors. God isn't just going to save "good" people....he never said that. God will save those who love him and are happy to obey him and the ones whom he has appointed to represent him on earth. (Heb 13:7, 17)

You think Jesus relied on the scripture to know the Truth? I don't. Not at all. I believe that Truth was known firsthand, from within, and without.

Indeed. Having been a constant companion of his Father for unknown eons of time, and being the agency through which all things were brought into existence, he did not have to learn what was in the scriptures....he knew it all, but he taught his disciples from the written word that his Father's spirit inspired for their instruction. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

And knowing that Truth, then when once reads scripture or anything in the world that God has touched, such as the "lilies of the field", one can see and hear God in everything. Don't mistake him quote scripture to make his point, as saying you have to read it exclusively to find the Truth.

Jesus taught from God's word and so did the apostles. What did Jesus do for his disciples after his death? He "opened up the scriptures" to them so that would fully understand the message that was in it for them. (Luke 24:28-32) The words were written long ago, but the meaning was reinforced with further revelation by the spirit. The "sacred mystery" would unfold as time went on. (Eph 3:2-7)

 

[JayJayDee]

I'll call your Nehemiah and raise you a Hebrews 10:16-22:

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Written on the heart does not mean rote memorization. It means a living truth, and scripture is written, moment to moment, in a dynamic, creative unfolding of the Living Truth within us. "It is written" is not something in the past you read about, but is "being written" in the moment. This is not something you can teach to another. You are, the Teacher. And that is not something learned in a classroom or a church or a Bible-study group, but realized in the Spirit.

That sounds very impressive but it also means that Jesus' teaching was a waste of time then. Three and a half years of instruction for nothing....? The instruction passed on by the apostles, likewise a waste of time...totally unnecessary.....? (Acts 17:2, 3) Why bother with scripture if 'the living truth is being written moment to moment'?

Like I said, if all who are convinced that they are guided 'by the spirit' really are, it is a very confused spirit writing different stories on different hearts.
God has always guided his people by the written word and by human representatives appointed by him. Why would he stop now?

Hence why I say, the whole affair for these who claim to hold the truth, who claim to have to correct interpretation and whatnot, are externalizing the entire thing, and are in flat contradiction with what Hebrews says about it being written on the heart, not the pages of a book scrutinized by scholars, translators, and whatnot. Written on the heart, not memorized with the head.

There is no contradiction. The written word is one story that began in Eden and ends back in paradise. What Adam lost for his children, Christ regains. God's first purpose was not to take humans to heaven. He placed them in paradise conditions on a material earth with other creatures to enjoy life. He intended this planet to be our permanent home. It will yet be. (Isa 45:18) While he chose only a relative few to make up a governing body of "kings and priests" to rule with Christ in heaven, their subjects will live on earth. (Rev 20:6; 21:2-5)

The day of judgment is every day. And I do agree, everyone is where they need to be on their path. There is no 'special invitation' to select individuals, but everyone is always called by virtue of the fact we are living beings. The end is not to convert to a religion, but to become that Living Truth, fully realized in ourselves.

Wheat and weeds....we are all one or the other. Sheep and goats...the same. Only two choices.....the broad easy way to death or the cramped narrow road to life. (Matt 7:13, 14) We choose which path by our own decisions. God will not interfere with it.

All of the above is to deal with this lesser view of "we have the real truth" idea and to show that's hardly true, and that to hold that tightly does really constitute a certain self-delusion. All such claims stem from the heart.

Satan has been extremely successful in masking the real truth. He has planted a virtual forest of look alikes so that the original is hard to pick. It isn't for those who know what they are looking for.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman...“Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming—and now is here—when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

"Spirit and truth". That means no false teachings masquerading as Christian doctrine. It means no "powerful works" as proof of Christian discipleship. (Matt 7:21-23) It means one united global brotherhood who all believe the same truth and who all exist by the operation of the same spirit. (1 Cor 1:10) It empowers them to carry out just one commission, "in all the inhabited earth", that of searching out deserving ones and making disciples out of them. (Matt 10:11-15; 24:14; 28:19, 20)

I have to go by the evidence. :yes:

 

[Windwalker]

Well, we all have equal opportunity to respond to the preaching of the good news. According to Jesus, it forms the basis for judgment. (Matt 24:14) The "witness" we receive either attracts us or repels us. Since Jesus used the days of Noah as a model for the time of the end, when he comes as judge and executioner, how many did he indicate would actually be attracted to the message? (Matt 24:36-39)

Would you like to argue with him?

I don't argue with Jesus. I argue with your interpretations of what Jesus was saying. There is a whopping big difference there.

Again, you are free to believe that if you wish.

You use this like saying, "You're entitled to your opinion". You use it many times in your responses in fact. I will counter that to say that everything you say is your opinion as well. But bear in mind, some opinions are better informed than others. So based on my personal breadth of experience and insights both in research of these areas along with my personal insights through spiritual growth, my opinion may be taking into account considerably more than yours. I believe it is, in fact.

So to simply attempt to swipe mine or others opinions away this way betrays a certain "I have the answer and need to consider no other points of view anymore because everyone else but our religious group is deceived", sort of closed mentality. That's a certain self-deception right there. Though I believe I have greater insights into this than what I'm hearing you express, I do consider your words and it helps to expand my understanding by taking your point of view into consideration. I see how you perceived this things the way you do to have a certain merit for you where you are at. It once had merit for me as well, but no longer fit the understandings I was moving into. It's a limited point of view that only works in a very limited context. And that context is not "the truth", but a relative truth specific to where you are at.

To continue...

But the "last days" of the present system are staring us in the face right now. All the features of the sign Jesus gave to indicate his "presence" (parousia) have been in evidence since the First World War....100 years ago. (Matt 24:2-14; Luke 21:34-36)

Every group has their own interpretation of these things, and have had so since time immemorial. Each one has believed they had it figured out, and everyone else was wrong. Your group is no different. And NO, one doesn't have to be right! That is a false expectation. That's like saying, "E.T. cannot be grey because others say he's blue. Only one can be right!" No, E.T. is a symbol, not an actual being. The entire premise is flawed, and your argument who has the right understanding is based on a flawed premise at the outset.

Satan can mimic everything, just not perfectly. He can't raise the dead, but he can cause people to babble in 'tongues', (those who aren't faking) and to be 'slain in the spirit' (whatever that is) or to be convinced that they have been healed of some awful disease etc.

Who exactly is this who has mapped out what this being "Satan" can and cannot do? Where is this Satan's owner's manual, and what all does it say? Who says this Satan cannot raise the dead? Who says this Satan can "cause" people to speak in tongues? Etc? It's sounds like this is all just made up by your "leaders" who are telling you junk to keep you in place out of fear.

The true measure of the Spirit is bearing the fruits of the spirit. An evil tree CANNOT bear good fruit. Are you going to argue with Jesus on this one? I don't see one single verse in scripture that says Satan can imitate the fruits of the Spirit. That's made up by you or your group.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
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Show me the verse that says Satan can imitate these?

When I was part of my little cult, listening to them talk about how right they were and how wrong everyone else was, this verse kept entering my mind again and again and again, "For by their fruits you shall know them". It has nothing to do with "By their doctrines". Doctrines are not in this list of the fruits of the spirit. Do you see it it in there?

The one thing that cannot be overlooked is that the wheat exist along with the weeds. Both are growing together in the same field. So it isn't one and all.

Thank you for bringing up that parable. I enjoyed looking at it again, and as always there is Truth in there. However, I do not hear it as you do that it means there is a true religious organization among the false ones. That is not at all what I hear in fact! What I hear, what I believe Jesus was saying and I completely agree with him, is in any group, in any religious body, in any organization, in any society, are those who grow the fruits of the spirit in their bodies - at whatever stage of development that is currently at for them, alongside those who are not spiritual, but simply following an external code of rules and regulations, "obeying" God, while having no true fruit within them.

In other words, it has nothing to do with organizations. It has everything to do with individuals within any and all organizations, or not in organizations at all! "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their religious affiliations. Do not deceive yourself that by belonging to the "right group" you are "in the Truth". Jesus said, and it applies here as well, "I tell you I could raise from these stones children unto Abraham". The wheat and the tares has to do with the heart of the individual, in whatever group they may exist in. The individuals are the wheat, not the group.

I can hear the Spirit of God in people who are in any religion, and I can hear imitations as well in all religions. The imitations are those who put on the religious clothing, whose heart has not been opened and hence not bearing spiritual fruit. It's the spirit borne out of the words that matters, not the language they speak it in.

And I have no doubt that all of that is true. But the wheat still exist...they are few....they worship God alone, like Christ did.

Yes, they are few because few are willing to give themselves up to God, regardless of the religious group they are in, be that your modern 19th century American group, your brother 19th century groups, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, you name it.

Anyone can be the wheat, and it has nothing to do with which field they grow within.

They hold all scripture to be inspired and they are preachers "in all the inhabited earth". "By their fruits" I have identified God's people for myself, just as everyone must.

Amazing how you just imposed your beliefs on what God's requirements are here. Where in the Bible does it say they must believe in the modern doctrine of Biblical Infallibility? Chapter and verse, please.

If you have identified God's people, then you would hear them when they spoke Truth to you. As Jesus said, "If you had known the Father, then you would have known me". It appears you assume your group is the truth, and those that belong to it are therefore "God's". That's not Biblical.