Near Death Experiences Disolve All Religions

[Windwalker]

I believe the identification of "Babylon the great" is crucial at this point in time. God warns his people to "get out of her" so as not to 'share in her sins and receive part of her plagues'. (Rev 18:4, 5) If we cannot identify her and extract ourselves from her, we will perish with her.

Oh yes, the Great Whore of Babylon teaching that the RCC is the false church teaching. I know it well. It's crappy theology.

Do you see the fruits of the spirit demonstrated in churches who continue to support doctrines and festivals that originated in paganism; (2 Cor 6:14-18) who spill blood in the wars of their nations with the blessing of their clergy? (Matt 5:43, 44; 1 John 4:20, 21) "By their fruits" they demonstrate who their god is.

I see wheat among the tares no matter what organization that is. All organizations are flawed, including yours. If you assume everyone in your group is a saint, then you are quaintly naive.

Again, the theme I am hearing from you is you are looking for Truth in the "right group". Nothing could be further from the truth. You can find that Truth, in any group. Because wheat grows in many fields, not just your artificial plot of land you and your group mapped out in the 1900's America.

Doctrinal correctness? Yes! To the Pharisees Jesus said, "So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.  You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me.  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’" (Matt 15:6-9; Isa 29:13)

Funny, as I read this I hear exactly what I'm saying all along here, and it doesn't have to do with doctrinal correctness. It has to do with taking doctrinal correctness as the thing itself, substituting the Truth of God that is beyond teachings. They violate the Spirit in teaching these things as the Truth, when their hearts are poison. It's the right words, but they come out all wrong. It's not about getting the teachings "right", it's about getting the heart right.

Doctrinal correctness was important.

No. Heart correctness was and is what is important.

You are entitled to think so. The scriptures disagree with your position.

Ditto. Which one of us is "right"? And is that even the right question?

Even godless humanitarians can love their neighbors. God isn't just going to save "good" people....he never said that. God will save those who love him and are happy to obey him and the ones whom he has appointed to represent him on earth. (Heb 13:7, 17)

Well, how can someone be good, truly good, if not for God? "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". If they are bearing good fruit, they are good. If God sends good people to hell, or rejects them, or however you wish to interpret this, then that is a very odd God indeed. If that God is interested in doctrinal correctness, then He is a heartless legalist, and not as John say so succinctly, "God is Love".

That's no God I know, nor desire to know. I desire the Light of Love, not the hard letter of the law.

Indeed. Having been a constant companion of his Father for unknown eons of time, and being the agency through which all things were brought into existence, he did not have to learn what was in the scriptures....he knew it all, but he taught his disciples from the written word that his Father's spirit inspired for their instruction. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

And if we know the Father, then we too have the Spirit of Christ within us, and can see and speak as Christ. Jesus did not just go around quoting scripture as his own voice. Jesus spoke Truth into being, and we can too if we in fact "know the Father" as Christ does.

But make no mistake, this is vastly different than belonging to a religion. This is vastly different than some title bestowed upon you in an organization. This is literally taking on the "Mind of Christ". That is not through beliefs. That is not through "correct doctrines". That is a living realization in ones own being, have grown to maturity as Wheat in whatever field the seed was sown. That Wheat can be Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. "A rose by any other name should smell as sweet".

Sorry that violates your interpretation of scripture. It doesn't mine.


I do plan to get to the true heart of this discussion between us, which is the avoidance of the heart through religion. But I'm considering making this a separate topic. For now, I'm enjoying speaking with someone in these areas as they are a part of my own past history. It's good for me to speak to these from the vantage point I've come into now.

 

[Mycroft]

All NDE's are a hallucination induced by trauma. In such cases the bond between family members is stronger than the bond to one's religion and, thus, the brain gravitates to that bond and produces an image of a family member.

 

[George-ananda]

All NDE's are a hallucination induced by trauma.

Even when they know things they couldn't possibly have known even if they were fully consciousness?

For example, I've read several where experiencers accurately knew what was going with family members in the waiting room of a hospital. And that is just one issue that challenges the hallucination hypothesis. I think there is ample evidence to believe it is highly likely that something more than a hallucination is happening but atheist-materialists will never accept this. You are a Rejectamentalist by your self-given title which sounds like the opposite of objectively open-minded. So for you the issue is closed.

 

[JayJayDee]

Oh yes, the Great Whore of Babylon teaching that the RCC is the false church teaching. I know it well. It's crappy theology.

Actually, JW's do not assign the designation of "Babylon the great" to Catholicism alone. All false worship originated in ancient Babylon. We see "Babylon the great" as the global empire of false worship, instituted by the devil, no matter what label or denomination it wears, it directs worship away from the true God. If all false religious beliefs originated in Babylon, then any religion that promotes it, is part of the spiritual harlot that 'sleeps' with God's enemy. Jehovah is a jealous God who expects fidelity. As far as he is concerned, there is only two kinds of worship in the world....true and false.

I see wheat among the tares no matter what organization that is. All organizations are flawed, including yours. If you assume everyone in your group is a saint, then you are quaintly naive.

There is no such thing as a righteous sinful human. If anyone claims to be perfect, they are either liars or fooling themselves. It is Christ's blood that allows God to impute righteousness to imperfect humans who are doing their best to obey his commands. All we have to do is to genuinely love God and our neighbors and to be obedient to all that God asks of us. The wheat are not just "good" people, they are obedient ones who carry their own load of Christian responsibility.

Again, the theme I am hearing from you is you are looking for Truth in the "right group". Nothing could be further from the truth. You can find that Truth, in any group. Because wheat grows in many fields, not just your artificial plot of land you and your group mapped out in the 1900's America.

The ones who followed the Christ in the first century did not remain among the practicers of their former religion. They had to separate into a new group in order to practice true worship. The old one had been corrupted. Those who stayed with it missed their opportunity. This was going to happen again....the apostles warned about it. Apostasy was not a likelihood...it was a foregone conclusion. (Acts 20:29, 30) This is why separation is again necessary. "Get out of her MY PEOPLE" was a command, not a recommendation. (Rev 18:4, 5)

Funny, as I read this I hear exactly what I'm saying all along here, and it doesn't have to do with doctrinal correctness. It has to do with taking doctrinal correctness as the thing itself, substituting the Truth of God that is beyond teachings. They violate the Spirit in teaching these things as the Truth, when their hearts are poison. It's the right words, but they come out all wrong. It's not about getting the teachings "right", it's about getting the heart right.

It's not either/or....it's both. Without the "right" heart, no teaching can be "right". God will not reveal his truth to those whose hearts and minds are dedicated to the doing of their own will.
"Doing the will of the Father" involves more than just a good heart and a profession of Christianity....it involves works to back up your claims to be a footstep follower of Christ. (Matt 7:21-23)

Ditto. Which one of us is "right"? And is that even the right question?

It was never a case of whose right and whose wrong. It has always been a case of who is obedient from the heart and who isn't. When the heart rules, it is powerful either way. It can back you up or it can undo you.

Well, how can someone be good, truly good, if not for God? "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". If they are bearing good fruit, they are good. If God sends good people to hell, or rejects them, or however you wish to interpret this, then that is a very odd God indeed.

God never offered humans "heaven or hell" in the first place. He offered them "life and death" and told them to choose life. By their own choices, they either live now as potential citizens of God's new world, or they live a life of self indulgence in disobedience and choose death.....they will not see life in any form ever again.

If Adam and his wife had remained obedient, they would still be here with us enjoying life in the paradise conditions they helped their children to create as they 'became many and filled the earth and subdued it'. Heaven was never in that scenario.

Our first parents failed to exercise their free will intelligently. They were influenced by an outsider to disobey their Creator for completely selfish reasons, in full knowledge of the consequences. The world we have as a result of inherited sin, is spiralling out of control more and more each day. Those who love God will obey him to the letter, no matter what circumstances the devil throws at them.

Job is not in the Bible for no reason. We are all "Job", being tested as to our integrity towards God and in upholding his sovereign rule over us in the face of sometimes extreme circumstances. No one can make us disobey God....only we can do that.

All who pass this test of obedience will be rewarded with way more than they ever lost and will have eternity to enjoy it. God gets to prove to all free willed beings that his rulership is superior, his sovereignty is absolute, and humans get to prove that they will serve the interests of their God before their own even under extreme pressure to "curse God to his face".

 

[JayJayDee]

If that God is interested in doctrinal correctness, then He is a heartless legalist, and not as John say so succinctly, "God is Love".

And it is this very quality in God that wants to see the redeemed ones among mankind enjoy the life we were offered in the beginning. A life without sin, without suffering or death....a life devoid of even a knowledge of evil.

That's no God I know, nor desire to know. I desire the Light of Love, not the hard letter of the law.

The God you know is certainly not the God I know....yet we all have the right to choose our God based upon what is in our heart. The "letter of the law" was God-given but the Pharisees turned it into a meaningless performance, devoid of love, compassion and mercy. This is what Jesus came to correct. He did not introduce a new religion, but reintroduced a cleansed version of the original. It is what I believe he has accomplished in these last days as well.

And if we know the Father, then we too have the Spirit of Christ within us, and can see and speak as Christ. Jesus did not just go around quoting scripture as his own voice. Jesus spoke Truth into being, and we can too if we in fact "know the Father" as Christ does.

Jesus spoke only what his Father told him to say. The words were not his. He was a messenger who invited others to join him in true worship of "the only true God" as disciples taught by his own son. (John 17:3)

But make no mistake, this is vastly different than belonging to a religion. This is vastly different than some title bestowed upon you in an organization. This is literally taking on the "Mind of Christ". That is not through beliefs. That is not through "correct doctrines". That is a living realization in ones own being, have grown to maturity as Wheat in whatever field the seed was sown. That Wheat can be Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. "A rose by any other name should smell as sweet".

It might "smell as sweet" to man, but not to God who requires exclusive devotion. He does not tolerate the worship of other gods. If you believe your own statement here, then you do not know the God of the Bible at all. "Babylon the great" encompasses all worship that is outside the one advocated by God and his Christ.

"Few" are on the road to life, according to Jesus. (Matt 7:13, 14) Religion is one of the main reasons for this. There are many paths, all leading to the same destination....but it isn't the one most people imagine.

I do plan to get to the true heart of this discussion between us, which is the avoidance of the heart through religion. But I'm considering making this a separate topic. For now, I'm enjoying speaking with someone in these areas as they are a part of my own past history. It's good for me to speak to these from the vantage point I've come into now.

We are all entitled to our own view of things, otherwise God would never have made us free willed beings. By our choices we place ourselves on a particular path. If it didn't matter what path we chose, then what was the point of the ministry of Jesus and his apostles? It means that the Bible is all wrong and that ultimately all roads will lead to eternal life in whatever place people imagine their future to be.

The big picture painted by the Scriptures to me is logical and leads to the outworking of Jehovah's first purpose. From Genesis to Revelation, there is one story. I believe that we are near the end of the final chapter.

Time will tell.....won't it?

 

[Muffled]

No, but the spirits that inhabit the invisible realm can influence a person's perception of reality.

"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess 2:9-12)

Don't underestimate the devil's ability to make his case convincing....."every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception" is used to fool people into believing his lies. God does not prevent people from falling for this "delusion" and being totally misled, because it is what their heart wants to believe.

What are NDE's designed to do? Can someone show me scripture that says we have an immortal soul and that the dead live on somewhere else after death?

Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Muffled]

All NDE's are a hallucination induced by trauma. In such cases the bond between family members is stronger than the bond to one's religion and, thus, the brain gravitates to that bond and produces an image of a family member.

I beleive you must have missed my previous post about hallucination.

 

[JayJayDee]

Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It is never a good idea to pluck scripture out of a passage unless the meaning you ascribe to it agrees with the context.

Luke makes this scripture a little clearer....it make a statement about something that most who profess Christianity today have no knowledge of....the resurrection. Unlike the pagan nations around them, the Jews had no scriptural belief in life after death by means of an immortal soul departing the body and going on to live in another form, in another realm. The resurrection that the Jews were taught about, was a physical raising of the dead back to life in the flesh, on earth under Messiah's kingdom.

In both accounts, the question was asked about a woman who was married to seven brothers in succession; as one died, she married the next (alluding to the Jewish custom of brother-in-law marriage.) In order to trick Jesus, the Saducees (who did not believe in the resurrection) presented him with a scenario that they thought would have him scratching for answers. Whose wife would she be in the resurrection? Jesus answer agrees with Jewish belief about the resurrection.

In Luke's account he said...."But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37, 38)

Since there was no belief in an immortal soul, Jesus was not speaking about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being physically alive in heaven, because no man went to heaven before Jesus did. (John 3:13) The Bible teaches that the dead "sleep in death" awaiting Messiah's call to come forth, just as Jesus raised his friend Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29)
Where was Lazarus when Jesus raised him up? He was 'sleeping' in his tomb. (John 11:11-14)

Was Lazarus "dead" as far as God was concerned? No, he was "sleeping" and it is an easy thing for God to restore the life of someone who expressed love for him and obedience to the teachings of his son. (Which were God's teachings anyway. John 8:28)

If the Bible does not teach that we live on after the death of the body, then Jesus was not speaking literally about those men of faith in pre-Christian times....he was speaking metaphorically. The dead are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
As far as God is concerned, death is just a temporary hiatus in the big scheme of things....something he never planned in the beginning, and an "enemy" that will be eliminated forever by the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:26)

I don't believe that NDE's are dead people influencing the living because the Bible does not teach that the dead people are alive somewhere else. NDE's are more likely to be demonically influenced to perpetuate satan's first lie..."you surely will not die".

God did not tell Adam that his body would die but that his soul would go to heaven or hell, he simply told him that if he disobeyed, he would "surely die".
What is death then? It is the end of life. Only God has the means to return a person to life and he promises to restore that life by means of a resurrection. All the resurrections performed by Jesus and the apostles were back to life on earth.
If these ones had gone to a better place, what was the point?

 

[ametist]

I cannot agree.
There is discipline dealt in this life.
How much more in the next?

I believe the peace of heaven is guarded.
Not all enter in.

sure it is guarded. I heavent meant that it isnt. I just said across the border we will meet the actual image of what we believe here...
But lets assume if you were the guardian of the gate perhaps eventually you would show mercy and do all you can do put everyone in, wouldnt you?

 

[Thief]

sure it is guarded. I heavent meant that it isnt. I just said across the border we will meet the actual image of what we believe here...
But lets assume if you were the guardian of the gate perhaps eventually you would show mercy and do all you can do put everyone in, wouldnt you?

I actually posted a scenario somewhere in the debate area.....

Let's say.....
I would rather be a the door keep in the House of my Lord....than to dwell in the tents of the wicked.
(a quote)

So when I get there....it's my turn at the Door.
Who ever let me in is trusting my call and judgment.
He is free to go on about his way.

The next knock upon the Door is my responsibility.
Who ever I let in.....consequence is pending.

So, time goes by.
The next Doorkeep takes my place.

More time goes by.

Then an angel comes my way and he might be...upset.
He has been tracing back the line of Doorkeeps to find the source of a problem.

If my judgment fails me....they will throw me out.
Along with anyone that followed.

I've never thought my theology to be simple.

 

[JayJayDee]

I actually posted a scenario somewhere in the debate area.....

Let's say.....
I would rather be a the door keep in the House of my Lord....than to dwell in the tents of the wicked.
(a quote)

So when I get there....it's my turn at the Door.
Who ever let me in is trusting my call and judgment.
He is free to go on about his way.

The next knock upon the Door is my responsibility.
Who ever I let in.....consequence is pending.

So, time goes by.
The next Doorkeep takes my place.

More time goes by.

Then an angel comes my way and he might be...upset.
He has been tracing back the line of Doorkeeps to find the source of a problem.

If my judgment fails me....they will throw me out.
Along with anyone that followed.

I've never thought my theology to be simple.

Hello Thief.

This is very imaginative but where do you find this scenario in scripture?

Can you tell me where it says that everyone is going to heaven and takes turns at the door to let people in?

In John 3:12-15, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life."

If no man ascended into heaven before Jesus, where did all those who died before him, go? Can you show me a single OT scripture where there is promise of an afterlife by immediately going to either heavenward hell? This was not a Jewish expectation. Jesus tried to tell his Jewish disciples that he was going away and that he would come back to take them to where he was. They did not think for one moment that he meant heaven. Even as he was leaving to ascend to his Father, Jesus told them “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit not many days after this.” (Acts 1:4, 5) They did not fully understand what he meant, but obediently followed his instructions.

What they asked Jesus next was proof that they believed the kingdom to be earthly, not heavenly.... "So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

Until they received the promised holy spirit, the disciples fully expected to become rulers with Christ in an earthly kingdom. Why was this a new thought for Jewish believers? Because God's original purpose was never to take humans to heaven. That only became necessary when Adam sinned. Man was made for the earth and the earth for man. It is a beautiful gift, spoiled by the selfishness of one man whose actions introduced evil into the world.

Jesus came to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life Adam forfeited for his children. Their sinful inheritance was not their fault, but valuable lessons needed to be learned by all of God's children, both in heaven and on earth. Failure to use free will in the right way has caused unimaginable pain and suffering. God's permission of suffering is to teach universal lessons so that peace and harmony will reign for the eternal future of all in God's family.

The Bible indicates that only a limited, chosen number of Christ's disciples will go to heaven to make up the full number of "kings and priests" who will rule in the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 14:1, 3; 20:6) Since all who go to heaven are chosen by God for a specific role, what makes us think that everyone must go there?

Rev 211-5 tells us: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true"

There is to be a "new earth" ruled by a 'new heavenly' government whose sole purpose is to restore the earth and the human race back into an acceptable standing with God (lost for us by Adam) and to get us back our original state of perfection to enjoy the life God intended for us at the beginning....unending life in paradise, with no knowledge of evil, no sickness, suffering or pain.

Those we have lost in death will be returned to life, resurrected by Jesus back to the earth to enjoy that life with us. (John 5:28, 29) It was always God's purpose to have material creatures inhabit this material earth forever, but rebellion had to be dealt with once and for all, so that free will can be restored to the blessing it was intended to be. It became a curse with the introduction of evil. Every evil act is the abuse of someone's free will.

We need to step back from the "everyone is going to heaven or hell" scenario and ask why God placed us here on this magnificent planet in the first place.

The big picture is awesome and does not require excursions into imagination to create false impressions about the future. The scriptures speak for themselves if we just let them.

 

[Thief]

Hello Thief.

This is very imaginative but where do you find this scenario in scripture?

Can you tell me where it says that everyone is going to heaven and takes turns at the door to let people in?

In John 3:12-15, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life."

If no man ascended into heaven before Jesus, where did all those who died before him, go? Can you show me a single OT scripture where there is promise of an afterlife by immediately going to either heavenward hell? This was not a Jewish expectation. Jesus tried to tell his Jewish disciples that he was going away and that he would come back to take them to where he was. They did not think for one moment that he meant heaven. Even as he was leaving to ascend to his Father, Jesus told them “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit not many days after this.” (Acts 1:4, 5) They did not fully understand what he meant, but obediently followed his instructions.

What they asked Jesus next was proof that they believed the kingdom to be earthly, not heavenly.... "So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

Until they received the promised holy spirit, the disciples fully expected to become rulers with Christ in an earthly kingdom. Why was this a new thought for Jewish believers? Because God's original purpose was never to take humans to heaven. That only became necessary when Adam sinned. Man was made for the earth and the earth for man. It is a beautiful gift, spoiled by the selfishness of one man whose actions introduced evil into the world.

Jesus came to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life Adam forfeited for his children. Their sinful inheritance was not their fault, but valuable lessons needed to be learned by all of God's children, both in heaven and on earth. Failure to use free will in the right way has caused unimaginable pain and suffering. God's permission of suffering is to teach universal lessons so that peace and harmony will reign for the eternal future of all in God's family.

The Bible indicates that only a limited, chosen number of Christ's disciples will go to heaven to make up the full number of "kings and priests" who will rule in the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 14:1, 3; 20:6) Since all who go to heaven are chosen by God for a specific role, what makes us think that everyone must go there?

Rev 211-5 tells us: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true"

There is to be a "new earth" ruled by a 'new heavenly' government whose sole purpose is to restore the earth and the human race back into an acceptable standing with God (lost for us by Adam) and to get us back our original state of perfection to enjoy the life God intended for us at the beginning....unending life in paradise, with no knowledge of evil, no sickness, suffering or pain.

Those we have lost in death will be returned to life, resurrected by Jesus back to the earth to enjoy that life with us. (John 5:28, 29) It was always God's purpose to have material creatures inhabit this material earth forever, but rebellion had to be dealt with once and for all, so that free will can be restored to the blessing it was intended to be. It became a curse with the introduction of evil. Every evil act is the abuse of someone's free will.

We need to step back from the "everyone is going to heaven or hell" scenario and ask why God placed us here on this magnificent planet in the first place.

The big picture is awesome and does not require excursions into imagination to create false impressions about the future. The scriptures speak for themselves if we just let them.

Imagination is the problem solving part of the mind.
It cannot be excluded from the effort of question to answer.

I think I was quoting from Psalms as I expanding on being a Doorkeep.

I think it fair enough, that whoever is at the Door should be relieved of such duty.
It could be rather boring to stand there at length.
Or it could be a bit of a problem....so many trying to get in!

And the Carpenter said to someone....
'Search the scriptures....if you think there is life within them!'

I suspect He was pointing out.....scripture at that time was insufficient.
And the same is true now.
It's not so much what you get out of a book....as it is....
what you write into your own book.

 

[JayJayDee]

Imagination is the problem solving part of the mind.
It cannot be excluded from the effort of question to answer.

I think I was quoting from Psalms as I expanding on being a Doorkeep.

I think it fair enough, that whoever is at the Door should be relieved of such duty.
It could be rather boring to stand there at length.
Or it could be a bit of a problem....so many trying to get in!

So you are saying that imagination fills in the gaps? What happens if your imagination has nothing to do with reality? What if your take on what you believe is completely false? What good is your imagination then?

And the Carpenter said to someone....
'Search the scriptures....if you think there is life within them!'

Love it when people quote scripture without context and miss the intent.

At John 5:39, 40 Jesus said to some in his day: “You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet you do not want to come to me that you may have life.”

By that comment Jesus was not discouraging his Jewish listeners from studying the Scriptures. Rather, he was showing up their insincerity or their inconsistency. They realized that the Scriptures could guide them to everlasting life, but the very Scriptures that they were searching also should have led them to the Messiah, Jesus. Nonetheless, they refused to accept him. Studying was thus of no profit because they were not sincere, teachable. (Deuteronomy 18:15; Luke 11:52; John 7:47, 48)

You know the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? It applies to scripture all the more so. :sad:

I suspect He was pointing out.....scripture at that time was insufficient.
And the same is true now.

I suspect your knowledge of scripture is somewhat lacking actually. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

It's not so much what you get out of a book....as it is....
what you write into your own book.

It is God's "book of life" that we need to have our names written in. (Rev 3:5; 17:8) God has to know us and how sincere we are about 'doing his will'. (As opposed to getting carried away with doing our own) Many will claim Jesus as their Lord at the judgment time, but he will tell them that he 'never knew them'. (Matt 7:21-23) "NEVER" means "not ever".

People can write in their own book all they like....it doesn't mean they will be saved. The Bible is God's book....his only constant communication with humankind. Through its pages we see the story unfold from Genesis to Revelation. Without the Bible, we would not know God or Christ, nor would we understand the purpose of his kingdom. (Matt 6:9, 10)

When under test from the devil, Jesus responded three times with "it is written".

People's personal versions of a belief system don't mean much if their expectations are based on false teachings, and misreading of scripture.

There is one road to life and we all need to find it.....not just create our own comfortable path. (Matt 7:13, 14)

 

[Thief]

So you are saying that imagination fills in the gaps? What happens if your imagination has nothing to do with reality? What if your take on what you believe is completely false? What good is your imagination then?



Love it when people quote scripture without context and miss the intent.

At John 5:39, 40 Jesus said to some in his day: “You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet you do not want to come to me that you may have life.”

By that comment Jesus was not discouraging his Jewish listeners from studying the Scriptures. Rather, he was showing up their insincerity or their inconsistency. They realized that the Scriptures could guide them to everlasting life, but the very Scriptures that they were searching also should have led them to the Messiah, Jesus. Nonetheless, they refused to accept him. Studying was thus of no profit because they were not sincere, teachable. (Deuteronomy 18:15; Luke 11:52; John 7:47, 48)

You know the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? It applies to scripture all the more so. :sad:



I suspect your knowledge of scripture is somewhat lacking actually. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)



It is God's "book of life" that we need to have our names written in. (Rev 3:5; 17:8) God has to know us and how sincere we are about 'doing his will'. (As opposed to getting carried away with doing our own) Many will claim Jesus as their Lord at the judgment time, but he will tell them that he 'never knew them'. (Matt 7:21-23) "NEVER" means "not ever".

People can write in their own book all they like....it doesn't mean they will be saved. The Bible is God's book....his only constant communication with humankind. Through its pages we see the story unfold from Genesis to Revelation. Without the Bible, we would not know God or Christ, nor would we understand the purpose of his kingdom. (Matt 6:9, 10)

When under test from the devil, Jesus responded three times with "it is written".

People's personal versions of a belief system don't mean much if their expectations are based on false teachings, and misreading of scripture.

There is one road to life and we all need to find it.....not just create our own comfortable path. (Matt 7:13, 14)

And you think I lack the insight!
We actually agree with your quote form John.

Search the scripture if you think there is life in them.

That's what people do.
And what they read they do not recognize.

You are your own book.
As per scripture....the books shall be opened.

 

[Muffled]

It is never a good idea to pluck scripture out of a passage unless the meaning you ascribe to it agrees with the context.

Luke makes this scripture a little clearer....it make a statement about something that most who profess Christianity today have no knowledge of....the resurrection. Unlike the pagan nations around them, the Jews had no scriptural belief in life after death by means of an immortal soul departing the body and going on to live in another form, in another realm. The resurrection that the Jews were taught about, was a physical raising of the dead back to life in the flesh, on earth under Messiah's kingdom.

In both accounts, the question was asked about a woman who was married to seven brothers in succession; as one died, she married the next (alluding to the Jewish custom of brother-in-law marriage.) In order to trick Jesus, the Saducees (who did not believe in the resurrection) presented him with a scenario that they thought would have him scratching for answers. Whose wife would she be in the resurrection? Jesus answer agrees with Jewish belief about the resurrection.

In Luke's account he said...."But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37, 38)

Since there was no belief in an immortal soul, Jesus was not speaking about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being physically alive in heaven, because no man went to heaven before Jesus did. (John 3:13) The Bible teaches that the dead "sleep in death" awaiting Messiah's call to come forth, just as Jesus raised his friend Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29)
Where was Lazarus when Jesus raised him up? He was 'sleeping' in his tomb. (John 11:11-14)

Was Lazarus "dead" as far as God was concerned? No, he was "sleeping" and it is an easy thing for God to restore the life of someone who expressed love for him and obedience to the teachings of his son. (Which were God's teachings anyway. John 8:28)

If the Bible does not teach that we live on after the death of the body, then Jesus was not speaking literally about those men of faith in pre-Christian times....he was speaking metaphorically. The dead are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
As far as God is concerned, death is just a temporary hiatus in the big scheme of things....something he never planned in the beginning, and an "enemy" that will be eliminated forever by the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:26)

I don't believe that NDE's are dead people influencing the living because the Bible does not teach that the dead people are alive somewhere else. NDE's are more likely to be demonically influenced to perpetuate satan's first lie..."you surely will not die".

God did not tell Adam that his body would die but that his soul would go to heaven or hell, he simply told him that if he disobeyed, he would "surely die".
What is death then? It is the end of life. Only God has the means to return a person to life and he promises to restore that life by means of a resurrection. All the resurrections performed by Jesus and the apostles were back to life on earth.
If these ones had gone to a better place, what was the point?

Perhaps, but I believe JW's rarely get context right anyway.

I believe that is what re-incarnation is. So for Abraham Isaac and Jacob to be alive at the time God spoke their names, they would either have to be in another realm or in this one.

I believe part of his answer refers to the End Time event of the Resurrection of the Dead but his answer about resurrection itself is more general.

I never said this was about an afterlife and I don't believe they were in Heaven, but Jesus does say that some preceded His coming into Heaven. I don't believe in an immortal soul but in an immortal spirit. What the Jews believed makes no difference because they weren't told everything.

I believe the verses make it clear that sleep was a metaphor for death not afterlife. If Lazarus was asleep then how did he hear the call of Jesus to come forth? My guess is that Lazarus was with his family but there is no evidence to support that view other than the expectation in this family of the resurrection as expressed by Martha: John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

I believe Jesus can't be speaking metaphorically because He was talking about a real event.

I believe that is like saying you don't believe 1 + 1 = 2 because you have a textbook tht says 1 + 1 = 10. ( I read that textbook too but I haven't stopped believing that 1 + 1 =2.)

I believe There is no evidence to support this theory.

I believe this is the null hypothesis. THere has to be proof that God would find it necessary to tell Adam about Heaven and there isn't any.

I believe this is reasoning from the details to the general which is faulty logic. I would agree that some people slept but that does not define the entirety of afterlife.

 

[JayJayDee]

Perhaps, but I believe JW's rarely get context right anyway.

If you are coming from Christendom's interpretation of the scriptures, then I can see why you feel this way. I was once a part of that system and its beliefs but I have studied the Bible deeply now for the last 40 years and I see where all my former beliefs originated....and it wasn't in the Bible.

I believe that is what re-incarnation is. So for Abraham Isaac and Jacob to be alive at the time God spoke their names, they would either have to be in another realm or in this one.

The Bible does not support re-incarnation. Luke's account says: "But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37, 38) This account was about the resurrection. A 'raising of the dead' to a Jew was exactly what Martha said to Jesus..."I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." This was a specific event at a specific time.

(Acts 17:31) "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

The raising of the dead is not something that happens when the death of the body takes place. The resurrection of the dead is linked to Christ's return. Then those who died "in union with Christ will rise first"...so where does that leave all those who died before Christ came into the world?

I believe part of his answer refers to the End Time event of the Resurrection of the Dead but his answer about resurrection itself is more general.

What was Jesus talking about in this passage of scripture?

Taken in context it reads..."

34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (Luke 20:34-38 NIV)

What is "the age" that Jesus speaks about? What is "this age" and how is one considered "worthy" to be part of "the age" to come? What does it mean when he says that these will become like the angels? Who are "the children of the resurrection"?

I never said this was about an afterlife and I don't believe they were in Heaven, but Jesus does say that some preceded His coming into Heaven.

Scripture please......?John 3:13 disagrees with you.

I don't believe in an immortal soul but in an immortal spirit. What the Jews believed makes no difference because they weren't told everything.

The Jews were told enough to know about the nature of the general resurrection, which would apply to the majority who preceded Jesus in death.
What Jesus tried to tell his Jewish disciples concerning the nature of their resurrection fell on deaf ears until the truth about their specific resurrection was revealed by holy spirit at Pentecost. John wrote about it in the Revelation. (Rev 20:6)
There was to be two completely different resurrections...one for the "chosen ones" who will rule in the heavenly kingdom with Christ as "kings and priests"....and an earthly resurrection for those who would be their subjects. ( John 5:28, 29; Rev 21:3, 4)
'The spirit that return to God' (Ecc 12:7) is the lifeforce that animates the body.
The CEV renders this passage..."So our bodies return to the earth, and the life-giving breath[a] returns to God."

Footnotes:
[a] 12.7 life-giving breath: Or “spirit.”

As the footnote acknowledges, the "spirit" that returns to God is the "life-breath". It is not a conscious entity. Only God can re-institute the breath of life in order for a human to live and breathe again. The resurrection for the majority of mankind will be back to physical life on earth. Adam was a lifeless body until God 'breathed life' into him. The resurrection will be a return of the lifebreath that we lost in death due to Adam's sin. Jesus came to sacrifice his life so that we can get back what Adam lost for us....everlasting life in paradise on earth.

 

[JayJayDee]

I believe the verses make it clear that sleep was a metaphor for death not afterlife. If Lazarus was asleep then how did he hear the call of Jesus to come forth?.

If Jesus raised Lazarus and then called him forth from his tomb, then the answer to that question becomes obvious.

My guess is that Lazarus was with his family but there is no evidence to support that view other than the expectation in this family of the resurrection as expressed by Martha: John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

We are not left to "guess". Understanding that that the Jews did not believe in an afterlife puts Martha's words in the correct context. She expected her brother to rise "in the resurrection on the last day"...when all of the dead will "hear Jesus' voice and come out" of their graves. (John 5:28, 29) There is no conscious part of man that survives death...not a soul nor a spirit. The "soul" is the whole living, breathing, conscious person. Souls die. (Ezek 18:4) The spirit is the animating force that keeps us breathing. That is what the scriptures teach. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4)

I believe Jesus can't be speaking metaphorically because He was talking about a real event.

The resurrection is a real event. And the 'sleep of death' is a metaphor. But death is a sleep from which no man can awaken another without the aid of God's spirit. All of the resurrections performed in the Bible by Jesus and his apostles were back to life in the flesh, reunited with their families. As far as God is concerned, all who sleep in death can be easily awakened. It is as if they are all just sleeping safely in their graves, blissfully unaware of anything that is taking place in this world, until it is time for Him to wake them up.

I believe that is like saying you don't believe 1 + 1 = 2 because you have a textbook tht says 1 + 1 = 10. ( I read that textbook too but I haven't stopped believing that 1 + 1 =2.)

I believe that you learned your math from the wrong teachers.
The dead do not live on somewhere else. Death is the opposite of life. Nowhere in the Bible will you find support for the idea that humans don't really die...it is satan that wants people to believe this. This belief was adopted from platonic Greek teachings and can be traced back to ancient Babylon...the launching pad for all false religious beliefs. It is not Biblical.

I believe There is no evidence to support this theory.

The account in 1 Sam 28 concerning the witch of Endor relates that a spirit medium supposedly 'brought up' the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. God's people were forbidden to consult spirits for very good reasons. (Deut 18:9-12) They were not the spirits of the dead at all, but demonic spirits masquerading as the dead. Saul lamented that none of the prophets of God in Israel would speak to him, so why would a faithful dead prophet do so by means of an avenue forbidden to them under threat of death?

I believe this is the null hypothesis. THere has to be proof that God would find it necessary to tell Adam about Heaven and there isn't any.

If you read the creation account carefully, you will see one stated penalty for disobedience....DEATH. God simply said "you will surely die".
Then in sentencing Adam he said....
"You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow until you return to the ground,
since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust.”

If there was a hell of torment for the wicked, then Adam certainly deserved to go there. The entire human race was sentenced to death due to the actions of this one man. (Rom 5:12) If there had been a choice between heaven and hell, don't you think God would have informed him of such an horrific outcome? Was it fair that Adam made his choice only being told that he would die and return to the dust from which he came?

If Adam had not sinned, then none of what followed would ever have happened. There would never have been a need for a mediator, a redeemer, a sacrifice, a kingdom of 'chosen ones in heaven or any wickedness on this earth.

Satan did not destroy God's first purpose, he merely derailed it temporarily. All that God purposed at the beginning will be restored with many valuable lessons learned for free willed creatures to contemplate.

I believe this is reasoning from the details to the general which is faulty logic. I would agree that some people slept but that does not define the entirety of afterlife.

How is it faulty logic, when the entire theme of the scriptures is 'paradise lost to paradise regained'? I believe that Christendom's logic is entirely flawed because they allowed men to adopt pagan teachings and pass them off as Bible truth. This happened so long ago, that no one thinks to question the most basic beliefs and where they originated.

There is no afterlife taught in the Bible except in the resurrection that Jesus explained. Having 'paid sin's wages', both "the righteous and the unrighteous" will be brought back to life on earth, reunited with their families to live the life God intended at the start.
Being mortal does not mean that humans had to die...it only meant that they could. But only if they disobeyed. No disobedience would have meant no sin...no sin would have meant no death. That is logical IMO.