Devillif311
Member
Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)
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Near Death experiences to atheist
- Thread starter Devillif311
- Start date
Devillif311
Member
lol i think i should restate my question
done
done
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I believe it is nothing more than a neurological phenomenon.
Devillif311
Member
There was one report of a completely blind person by birth who actually could "see" her body when she was "dead", and she explained it as beautiful, even the light was an emotional experience. I think that makes things more than just neurological.
I'm inclined to agree with Fantome.
Even if we accepted that an astral body or something similar exists, though, that would hardly be evidence of God's existence.
Even if we accepted that an astral body or something similar exists, though, that would hardly be evidence of God's existence.
Erebus
Well-Known Member
I know a lot of people who feel that the various near death experiences (including out of body experiences) are likely the result of lack of oxygen to the brain, the stress of the situation, survival instinct kicking in and trying to think of ways out of the situation or any combination of the above.
Personally I just don't know what to think. I know our perception of reality can be radically altered by purely mundane causes (ever woken up from anaesthetic? It's confusing as Hell) but equally I believe an afterlife or soul is entirely possible.
Personally I just don't know what to think. I know our perception of reality can be radically altered by purely mundane causes (ever woken up from anaesthetic? It's confusing as Hell) but equally I believe an afterlife or soul is entirely possible.
Why? Do you think blind people have no concept of beauty?
Devillif311
Member
Yeah I'm not saying that this has anything to do with a god, just some evidence of spirits, and yes i believe blind people have concepts of beauty lol
ok. I don't. Emotion is a neurological phenomenon. It is not unheard of for blind people to see things in dreams. Anything else I would have to see the documentation.
Devillif311
Member
It's hard to explain, but i can show you the youtube video of the woman explaining it
/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5HbtoX3Q5OI
/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5HbtoX3Q5OI
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Skwim
Veteran Member
But only those who were once sighted.fantôme profane;3356106 said:
From an article in Mental Floss
"1. People born blind, and who never experienced visual imagery in waking life, have no visual images in their dreams.
2. People who became blind before the age of five rarely experience visual imagery in their dreams.
3. People who became blind between the ages of five and seven sometimes retain some visual imagery and experience it in their dreams.
4. Most people who became blind after the age of seven continue to experience at least some visual imagery in their dreams, but the clarity and frequency of the imagery is often reduced with time.
Several studies in sleep laboratories, in which blind participants were woken up during REM sleep for the collection of dream reports, reported similar results.
A more recent study3 analyzed a sample of 372 dreams from 15 blind adultssome born blind, and others who went blind later in life. Again, the study found that people blind since birth or very early childhood experienced no visual imagery, and people blinded later in life did retain some visual imagery from their sighted waking lives and experienced it while dreaming.
One participant in the study, though, reported visual imagery inconsistent with the trends described in previous findings. Participant 13, a 24-year-old man blinded at age four, reported that he was able to see objects "clearly" or "plainly" during the dream, so it is possible that some people who became blind before the age of five can experience visual imagery in dreams.
source
2. People who became blind before the age of five rarely experience visual imagery in their dreams.
3. People who became blind between the ages of five and seven sometimes retain some visual imagery and experience it in their dreams.
4. Most people who became blind after the age of seven continue to experience at least some visual imagery in their dreams, but the clarity and frequency of the imagery is often reduced with time.
Several studies in sleep laboratories, in which blind participants were woken up during REM sleep for the collection of dream reports, reported similar results.
A more recent study3 analyzed a sample of 372 dreams from 15 blind adultssome born blind, and others who went blind later in life. Again, the study found that people blind since birth or very early childhood experienced no visual imagery, and people blinded later in life did retain some visual imagery from their sighted waking lives and experienced it while dreaming.
One participant in the study, though, reported visual imagery inconsistent with the trends described in previous findings. Participant 13, a 24-year-old man blinded at age four, reported that he was able to see objects "clearly" or "plainly" during the dream, so it is possible that some people who became blind before the age of five can experience visual imagery in dreams.
source
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Not an atheist but I do not believe in OBE phenomena during NDE because you're not really dead if you can come back. So here is my answer:
By the same way if someone talks to Xenu on drugs.
By the same way if someone talks to Xenu on drugs.
I've looked into them and haven't really been all that impressed. They still had a living brain during the experience.
People from various cultures report meeting different types of deities or beings, there are some commonly shared experiences, and some different experiences.
If the brain starts to shut down, gets deprived of oxygen, produces DMT, I'm sure all sorts of things can happen. Some neurological issues like schizophrenia can result in experiencing things that are not there, so I don't see why a healthy brain couldn't do the same thing under damage or stress or drugs. Indeed many reported drug experiences are similar to NDE's.
They've done some studies, like to put a hidden code in operating rooms that can only be seen from the ceiling, to see if a person's consciousness can truly come out of the body and look downward like in many of the NDE descriptions, and those studies haven't reported successful results.
I think NDE's are a topic worthy of study, and I think it's good that some scientists have taken the claims seriously and have done some research, but the evidence to me seems to point to a neurological cause rather than the metaphysical existence of an afterlife. In many cases the claims are not really falsifiable so at most, all I can really say is that I support where the evidence leads.
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
People claim to see visions of God and attribute it to God.
We do not know enough about the brain to attribute unconscious experiences to anything but "our minds." To claim it's divine in any way would be unreasonable because there is no way to substantiate a claim other than "I think I saw ....."
I see this discussion got into blind people having NDEs. Here's one short video I found of a woman blind from birth who had a NDE.
[youtube]5HbtoX3Q5OI[/youtube]
Blind person's nde
There's actually a book titled 'Mindsight' just about the NDEs of blind people.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
[youtube]5HbtoX3Q5OI[/youtube]
Blind person's nde
There's actually a book titled 'Mindsight' just about the NDEs of blind people.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
The brain is capable of awesome things.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Peoples' alleged memories aren't particularly dependable when brain chemistry is altered. Heck, most people' memories aren't particularly dependable most of the time.
People who do LSD or other hallucinogens see the strangest things. When someone is near death, a number of chemical responses happen in the brain. It "self-medicates" on dopamine, adrenaline, morphine-like chemicals etc. If it is also deprived of oxygen, high or low on blood sugar, and in a generally bad state, it can cause an impression of seeing lights or similar phenomena. Or maybe the lights aren't seen there and then but a false memory of seeing a light occurs later.
But the lights seen and experiences reported aren't real sensory perceptions, as shown by blind people also experiencing them (as their eyes or optical nerves may not work but they still have a vision center in the brain where neurons maybe start firing randomly when close to death).
It's an interesting phenomenon, and if it can be scientifically proven that patients can see things in the room that they could not possibly see from their bed, it could be an evidence of "magical" stuff happening, but until that is proven, I'll place my bet on the brain releasing chemicals and reverting into a "non-panicking-mode", just calming itself when fight or flight are no longer alternatives.
In other words, near death experiences is the brain's version of the "blue screen of death" in Windows.
But the lights seen and experiences reported aren't real sensory perceptions, as shown by blind people also experiencing them (as their eyes or optical nerves may not work but they still have a vision center in the brain where neurons maybe start firing randomly when close to death).
It's an interesting phenomenon, and if it can be scientifically proven that patients can see things in the room that they could not possibly see from their bed, it could be an evidence of "magical" stuff happening, but until that is proven, I'll place my bet on the brain releasing chemicals and reverting into a "non-panicking-mode", just calming itself when fight or flight are no longer alternatives.
In other words, near death experiences is the brain's version of the "blue screen of death" in Windows.
outhouse
Atheistically
fantôme profane;3356098 said:
exactly.
lack of blood to the brain can do some strange stuff.
There was a doctor who placed numbers on top of a cabinet, where patients in the operating room could not see.
Not one, ever, commented on the numbers or the large letters saying "look here"