Near Death experiences to atheist

[1137]

I have never had a dream where I was looking down on my sleeping body. Why do near death people so frequently report this is the question.

I have.

I feel safe saying those who accept NDE's as evidence for objective spiritual truth are simply choosing faith and desire over knowledge and reason. There are better evidences to hang onto rather than experiences that so obviously and easily can be explained away

 

[YmirGF]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

So an atheist would experience an out of body episode without a religious back-dropping. Sort of like normal experience for an atheist. Granted, said first hand experience may set the individual's ideas about reality on their pointy little head, but still... it's nothing they cannot get over.

 

[ArtieE]

So an atheist would experience an out of body episode without a religious back-dropping. Sort of like normal experience for an atheist.

Sure. Plenty of stories of people in hospitals feeling they are leaving their bodies, travelling through space and getting into their bodies again without any gods involved. Nothing to do with atheism.

Granted, said first hand experience may set the individual's ideas about reality on their pointy little head, but still... it's nothing they cannot get over.

Why? An atheist has an absence of belief in gods. He doesn't have an absence of belief that something could be leaving the body and return to it or anything else other than an absence of belief in gods.

 

[apophenia]

Ketamine induces a state which conforms to most descriptions of NDEs.

One thing impressed me though - friends in other cities had altered state experiences while I was down the hole.

They contacted me the next day because they were shocked, and knew perfectly well that we had been in communication.

One, who was sleeping at the time, 'woke up in white light' and could hear me playing my bass (which I was doing as I reintegrated into consensus reality). He knew it was 'real' but atypical, and really wanted to know WTF just happened.

The others, in yet another city, lit candles and incense for me.

We don't know **** about consciousness.

 

[ArtieE]

We don't know **** about consciousness.

That is why we have science to explain it. It might take a while, but we'll get there.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have never had a dream where I was looking down on my sleeping body. Why do near death people so frequently report this is the question.

I have, many times. It seems to be a fairly common thing.

I've also had dreams where I felt like I was trying to crawl back inside my body (I'm not sure how I got out though!). I've had dreams where I was flying and I've had dreams where I can't move my body even though I feel like I'm awake.

Dreams and the brain are puzzling things, sometimes. But if I've had those kinds of dreams without being nearly dead, then I don't know why it would be all that weird for someone in that state to have such a dream. It's just one of those things some people dream about.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's fun to imagine mystical, magical things. Some people need it to be more than fun.

 

[George-ananda]

Ketamine induces a state which conforms to most descriptions of NDEs.

One thing impressed me though - friends in other cities had altered state experiences while I was down the hole.

They contacted me the next day because they were shocked, and knew perfectly well that we had been in communication.

One, who was sleeping at the time, 'woke up in white light' and could hear me playing my bass (which I was doing as I reintegrated into consensus reality). He knew it was 'real' but atypical, and really wanted to know WTF just happened.

The others, in yet another city, lit candles and incense for me.

We don't know **** about consciousness.

One theory is Ketamine screws with the physical brain in such a way that the physical brain loses much of its ability to keep its natural connection to the etheric/astral body. That is why there are similarities between Ketamine experiences and near-death experiences.

 

[George-ananda]

I have, many times. It seems to be a fairly common thing.

I've also had dreams where I felt like I was trying to crawl back inside my body (I'm not sure how I got out though!). I've had dreams where I was flying and I've had dreams where I can't move my body even though I feel like I'm awake.

Dreams and the brain are puzzling things, sometimes. But if I've had those kinds of dreams without being nearly dead, then I don't know why it would be all that weird for someone in that state to have such a dream. It's just one of those things some people dream about.

Have you considered that you were having out of body experiences?

I have learned from many teachers in eastern and esoteric literature (accept, reject or laugh as you will) that during deep sleep (non-dreaming state) everybody's etheric/astral body detaches from their physical body.

 

[SkepticThinker]

One theory is Ketamine screws with the physical brain in such a way that the physical brain loses much of its ability to keep its natural connection to the etheric/astral body. That is why there are similarities between Ketamine experiences and near-death experiences.

Is there any data to back this up?

 

[1137]

One theory is Ketamine screws with the physical brain in such a way that the physical brain loses much of its ability to keep its natural connection to the etheric/astral body. That is why there are similarities between Ketamine experiences and near-death experiences.

Show us the scientific evidence please.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Have you considered that you were having out of body experiences?

I have learned from many teachers in eastern and esoteric literature (accept, reject or laugh as you will) that during deep sleep (non-dreaming state) everybody's etheric/astral body detaches from their physical body.

My mother believes that, actually. So I've heard a bit about it before. She thinks we can travel around outside our body when we're asleep. Not sure I buy it though.

Given what I know about the brain (which I think is at least a little more than the average Joe), it seems to me that these kinds of things are explainable as functions of the human brain so I don't really see the need to attach any kind of ethereal qualities to them. It's all very interesting though.

 

[George-ananda]

Is there any data to back this up?

Mainstream scientific knowledge and data as we know it in this century applies only to the physical plane.

Knowledge of planes beyond the physical (i.e. astral) at this time come from the clairvoyant/mystical insights of human minds (not scientific instruments). Disregard all of it if you want but from my studies of paranormal phenomena I think you would be short-changing yourself.

 

[1137]

Mainstream scientific knowledge and data as we know it in this century applies only to the physical plane.

Knowledge of planes beyond the physical (i.e. astral) at this time come from the clairvoyant/mystical insights of human minds (not scientific instruments). Disregard all of it if you want but from my studies of paranormal phenomena I think you would be short-changing yourself.

In other words there is no science to back this up, no evidence, nothing testable or falsifiable, nothing that we can have any objective knowledge about, and therefore something that must be blindly accepted. Considering it's the opposite direction of where the evidence points, it's also fideistically accepted. At least George can admit that it holds no merit unlike any others of this mindset I talk to. Respect for that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Mainstream scientific knowledge and data as we know it in this century applies only to the physical plane.

Knowledge of planes beyond the physical (i.e. astral) at this time come from the clairvoyant/mystical insights of human minds (not scientific instruments). Disregard all of it if you want but from my studies of paranormal phenomena I think you would be short-changing yourself.

I see where you're going here and you're right to a certain extent, BUT ...

The thing about ketamine is, we can observe its affect on the brain of a person who has ingested it. We can see right in front of us what is going on, in the physical world. We can compare it to other studies of people who have ingested it and map brain function. There is no apparent need to apply supernatural causes to the process. If you could show somehow that physical processes are not at work when a person ingests ketamine, that might be a good start. But so far as I can tell for the time being, such things are demonstrably just physical properties and functions of our physical brains. My mother will never stop trying to convince me otherwise though.

 

[George-ananda]

At least George can admit that it holds no merit unlike any others of this mindset I talk to. Respect for that.

Funny TDOP, but the rare time you said something good about me you were incorrect.

I never admitted it holds no merit!!!

I'm of the opinion that mainstream science's reach is too short in this century and that my study of paranormal phenomena shows that. We can consider information from other sources (i.e. people claiming clairvoyant/mystical insights and paranormal claims) in forming our individual view of the universe.

It is true that claims of knowledge beyond the physical can not be known and tested with the rigorous methods of physical science in this century. That's all I admitted.

 

[George-ananda]

I see where you're going here and you're right to a certain extent, BUT ...

The thing about ketamine is, we can observe its affect on the brain of a person who has ingested it. We can see right in front of us what is going on, in the physical world. We can compare it to other studies of people who have ingested it and map brain function. There is no apparent need to apply supernatural causes to the process. If you could show somehow that physical processes are not at work when a person ingests ketamine, that might be a good start. But so far as I can tell for the time being, such things are demonstrably just physical properties and functions of our physical brains. My mother will never stop trying to convince me otherwise though.

Scientists are only capable of seeing the physical brain effects of ketamine. How can they possibly tell us whether or not these physical events are screwing with the natural connection between the physical brain and the etheric/astral body.

Many people in the consciousness debate say the physical scientists see an event in the brain that is associated with a conscious experience and (being physicalist/materialists) assume the brain event is what caused the conscious experience. I think the physicalist view is where you're coming from with your argument.

SkepticThinker....mothers know best!:yes:

 

[SkepticThinker]

Scientists are only capable of seeing the physical brain effects of ketamine. How can they possibly tell us whether or not these physical events are screwing with the natural connection between the physical brain and the etheric/astral body.

Well, yes, that is correct. We can't assume there is an etheric/astral body without any evidence of it. I'm just saying that as far as we can test and observe, consciousness is a property or function of the physical brain. We have no reason to assume otherwise. Given that when there is no brain function the person's consciousness apparently ceases to exist, it's the only conclusion we can really come to.

Many people in the consciousness debate say the physical scientists see an event in the brain that is associated with a conscious experience and (being physicalist/materialists) assume the brain event is what caused the conscious experience. I think the physicalist view is where you're coming from with your argument.

It's not so much that we're coming at it from a physicalist/materialist viewpoint, the reason for this is more that people like myself have observed a lot of brains and we've observed them functioning in response to input or to no input at all. We have watched the brain in action, we've manipulated it and we've tested it and we've mapped the functions of specific pathways and specific responses to stimuli, feelings and emotions. We're at the point where we can even basically read peoples' thoughts and determine what action they're going to take before they even know it themselves. We can even record people's motor programs, decode the electrical signal it produces within their brain and broadcast the command to another device that puts the thought into action. For example, someone can fly a remote control helicopter using their thoughts alone and rats can be trained to merely think about pressing a bar to receive a drink of water without ever touching the bar itself. It's pretty amazing stuff and while I'm not completely closed off to the idea of what you're talking about, it just seems very apparent to me, at this point, that consciousness is a result of brain activity.

SkepticThinker....mothers know best!:yes:

LOL That's what she says!

 

[apophenia]

Well, yes, that is correct. We can't assume there is an etheric/astral body without any evidence of it. I'm just saying that as far as we can test and observe, consciousness is a property or function of the physical brain. We have no reason to assume otherwise. Given that when there is no brain function the person's consciousness apparently ceases to exist, it's the only conclusion we can really come to.

This is the strange conundrum for me. I am a skeptic. I do not 'believe' anything about astral and etheric bodies. But I have a collection of experiences which involve confirmation from outside me, and which are simply not possible if consciousness is limited to the physical brain, unless we include the idea of amazing capabilities of the human brain which we currently can't explain.

I have been visited by a friend 'astral traveling', who drew a precise picture of my room (she had never been there physically, nor had I ever described it), and where I was in it when she visited, for example. I have 'traveled' to other places and seen precisely what was happening there - and my cheating partner 'knew' I was there ! - what I saw was accurate in every detail, despite me never having even met the dude she was with before, I was able to describe him in detail. I have cursed a guy who threatened me with death, and he was immediately hospitalised with inexplicable anemia and bleeding from the kidneys. He stayed that way (for 6 weeks) until he contacted me and asked for my forgiveness, even though I had not told him I had cursed him. Then he immediately recovered. I have put a 'magic circle' around my unborn daughter 4 weeks into her gestation, and the doctors at her scheduled abortion simply changed their minds for no apparent reason and refused to carry out the abortion - the mother was shocked and angry as we left the clinic ( I did not attempt to stop her, I just maintained a mantra and my intention, which was unassailable. I had no contact whatsoever with the doctors or staff, I sat in a public waiting room). After more 'activity' on my part a few days later,she decided to go ahead with the pregnancy. And, btw, a painting of the four-armed form of krishna had 'come to life' a few days previously and told me that I need not worry, or argue, and that my child would certainly survive.
And lots of other stuff.
I am unable to explain these things - or to deny them.Which is a weird position to be in, but such is life.

So, I certainly have 'reason to assume otherwise'.

 

[George-ananda]

I do not 'believe' anything about astral and etheric bodies.

Do you 'not believe' in astral and etheric bodies or are you saying you're unsure.

Are you saying your experiences happened and you have no clue of the mechanism? Certainly you've pondered this and possible theories.