Neat Video Explaining the Evidence of Our Relationship To the Other Great Apes

[Muslim-UK]

Thank man. Man put a stop to it as God sat idly by, watching.

I've noticed that God, whenever confronted with a choice, always does what would happen if there were no God.

You want Him to interfere in our free will? Did the Nazis obey God when they killed the Jews? Of course not.

Then the tests are just for yucks? Sure seems like it. Remember poor Job and the pointless infliction of grief and suffering on a man for no apparent reason.

The only story of Job pbuh, I accept is from the Qur'an and Hadiths:

Job was a descendant of Noah (Quran 6:84). He loved God, worshipped Him alone, was patient, steadfast and sort forgiveness often. Satan overheard a group of angels discussing that Job was the best man of his generation and Satan’s dark heart was filled with jealousy and silent rage. His plan was to tempt Job away from goodness and have him fall into disbelief and corruption. Satan attempted to distract Job from his prayers but Job remained steadfast and prayed with commitment and concentration.

This caused Satan’s rage to grow and he complained to God saying that Job was a devoted worshipper only because God had blessed him with wealth and possessions. God allowed Satan and his helpers to destroy Jobs possessions, but Job remained true to his belief and acknowledged that God was able to give or take wealth and possessions as He pleased. Satan became even more frustrated and returned to God saying that Job only hid his disappointment because of his large happy family. Satan and his helpers destroyed Job’s home, the building came crashing down killing all of Job’s children.

Once again, Job turned to God for comfort and accepted this most heavy test without complaint. Satan disguised himself and approached Job in the form of an old man. The old man commiserated with Job and suggested that God was not rewarding Job for his devotion and prayers, but Job replied that God “sometimes gives and sometimes takes” and that he was well pleased with His Creator. Satan’s silent but smouldering anger grew. He returned to God saying that Job was fit and healthy and therefore had hopes of regaining his wealth and having more children. Satan asked permission to destroy Job’s health. God granted Satan’s third request excluding his ability to harm Job’s soul, heart, or intellect.

Satan and his helpers began to harm Job’s body, by the will of Allah. He was reduced to skin and bone and suffered severe pain. Job was also stricken with a disease that made people turn away from him with revulsion and his friends and relatives began to desert him. Only his wife remained with him. She cared for him and showered him with kindness even though they had become penniless and she had to work as a servant to provide them with a small morsel of food each day.

Throughout his ordeal, Job remained devoted to God. His lips and tongue remained moist with the remembrance of God and he never despaired or complained. He continued to thank God even for this great calamity that had befallen him. Satan was at a loss, he did not know how to entice Job away from his devotion to God so he decided to harass Job’s wife. He came to her in the form of a man and reminded her of the old days and how easy their life had once been. Job’s wife burst into tears and confronted Job saying, “ask your Lord to remove this suffering from us”.

Job was saddened and reminded his wife that God had blessed them with wealth, children and health for 80 years and that this suffering had been upon them for a relatively short period of time. He declared that he was ashamed to call on God to remove the hardship and admonished his wife saying that if he ever regained his health he would beat her with 100 strokes. Job’s loving wife was devastated, she turned away and sought shelter elsewhere. Job felt helpless, he turned to God, not to complain but to beg for mercy.

“Verily! distress has seized me and You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy.” So We answered his call, and we removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his family to him (that he had lost), and the like thereof along with them as a mercy from Ourselves and a Reminder for all who worship Us.” (Quran 21:83-84)

God restored Job’s health almost immediately. Job’s wife could not bear to be parted from her beloved husband for very long so she returned and was amazed when she saw his recovery. She cried out her thanks to God, and on hearing her words, Job became worried. He had taken an oath to beat his wife but he had no desire to hurt her for he loved her dearly. God wanted to ease the heart of his devoted, patient servant so he advised him to “take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith your wife, and break not your oath”. (Quran 38:44)

From the traditions of Prophet Muhammad we learn that God also restored Job’s wealth. It is said that one day when he was taking a shower (or bath) God showered him with grasshoppers made of gold. God rewarded Job’s patience abundantly. His health was restored, his family was returned to him and multiplied, and he once again became a wealthy man.

God tells us that Job’s story is a reminder for all those who worship God. (Quran 21:84) When one truly worships God with full submission, it is necessary to have patience. It is easy to worship for a few days or even weeks, but we must be consistent. Prayer at night requires patience, fasting requires patience, living with tribulations and trials requires patience. The life of this world is a test and in order to pass, and be rewarded with Paradise, we need to acquire the patience of Job.

The Story of Prophet Job - The Religion of Islam

 

[Muslim-UK]

How God Killed 3 Million People In The Bible

The Qur'an tells us the Bible has been corrupted. This means people who considered themselves ethnically superior likely wrote stories to justify mass murder etc:

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. Qur'an 2:79

Did he mention penicillin or insulin? They can actually treat disease states.

It was covered in the previous link I gave. Here's another source...

Your Lord revealed to the bees: "Build dwellings in the mountains and the trees, and also in the structures which men erect. Then eat from every kind of fruit and travel the paths of your Lord, which have been made easy for you to follow." From inside them comes a drink of varying colours, containing healing for mankind. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who reflect. (Qur'an, 16:69)

Honey is a "healing for men" as stated in the verses above. Nowadays, apiculture and bee products have opened a new branch of research in scientifically advanced parts of the world. Other benefits of honey may be described as below:

Easily digested: Because sugar molecules in honey can convert into other sugars (e.g. fructose to glucose), honey is easily digested by the most sensitive stomachs, despite its high acid content. It helps kidneys and intestines to function better.

Rapidly diffuses through the blood; is a quick energy source: When accompanied by mild water, honey diffuses into the bloodstream in seven minutes. Its free sugar molecules make the brain function better since the brain is the largest consumer of sugar. Honey is a natural composition of sugars like glucose and fructose. According to recent research, this unique mixture of sugars is the most effective means to remove fatigue and increase athletic performance.

The antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties of honey were revealed as a result of clinical observations and research. Honey is exceedingly effective in painlessly cleaning up infection and dead cells in these regions and in the development of new tissues. The use of honey as a medicine is mentioned in the most ancient writings. In the present day, doctors and scientists are rediscovering the effectiveness of honey in the treatment of wounds.

Dr. Peter Molan, a leading researcher into honey for the last 20 years and a professor of biochemistry at New Zealand’s University of Waikato, says this about the antimicrobial properties of honey:

Randomized trials have shown that honey is more effective in controlling infection in burn wounds than silver sulphadiazine, the antibacterial ointment most widely used on burns in hospitals. (“Honey Against Infected Skin Lesions,” www.apitherapy.com/honeysk.htm.)

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

Disagree. If there is a god, we should strive to be just like Him wherever it is possible. If God kills, so should we.

You don't believe in God, so should do nothing of the sort. Anyone who does believe in God should follow his commandments, see my previous post.

 

[Jainarayan]

In the 10th Century a famous Muslim Scholar wrote, “You think that Allah (swt) hasn’t created humans other than yourselves; but He has. He has created a thousand thousand [a million] “Adams”, and you are the descendants of the final “Adam”.

Hehe that may not be too far off the mark. The only thing I'd dispute is that we are descendants of one man. Genetics shows that we each have a Y-DNA Adam and mt-DNA Eve that we share with certain family members and ancestors. There were thousands of humans that gave rise to each of our paternal and maternal lines.

For example, I descend in an unbroken line through my father, his father, his father, his father, his father... back approx. 25,000 years from one man who lived somewhere in the Near East/Red Sea area of SW Asia. The same can be said for my brothers and their sons, my father, my paternal uncles and male cousins, all descending from that one man 25,000 years ago. This man appeared when his X chromosome diverged (mutated) significantly from his father's. Every human male can claim the same thing... descent from an "Adam". If my nephews, brothers, grand-nephews have their DNA tested, and they are not in the same category I am, then it can be said they are the Adam of the new line they created.

All right Jai...

(I had to... I'm weak )

It also applies to the maternal line. The female progenitor of my mother's line lived about 35,000 years ago in western Eurasia (Caucasus Mtn. area). She is my maternal "Eve", though she and my Adam did not live at the same time. So, I wouldn't say we're descended from the final Adam (or Eve), but rather, the first Adam (or Eve), our own Adam (or... OK, we get it).

So, this is a case where I have to give credit to a non-Hindu scripture for being pretty much on point.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Hehe that may not be too far off the mark. The only thing I'd dispute is that we are descendants of one man. Genetics shows that we each have a Y-DNA Adam and mt-DNA Eve that we share with certain family members and ancestors. There were thousands of humans that gave rise to each of our paternal and maternal lines.

For example, I descend in an unbroken line through my father, his father, his father, his father, his father... back approx. 25,000 years from one man who lived somewhere in the Near East/Red Sea area of SW Asia. The same can be said for my brothers and their sons, my father, my paternal uncles and male cousins, all descending from that one man 25,000 years ago. This man appeared when his X chromosome diverged (mutated) significantly from his father's. Every human male can claim the same thing... descent from an "Adam". If my nephews, brothers, grand-nephews have their DNA tested, and they are not in the same category I am, then it can be said they are the Adam of the new line they created.

All right Jai...

(I had to... I'm weak )

It also applies to the maternal line. The female progenitor of my mother's line lived about 35,000 years ago in western Eurasia (Caucasus Mtn. area). She is my maternal "Eve", though she and my Adam did not live at the same time. So, I wouldn't say we're descended from the final Adam (or Eve), but rather, the first Adam (or Eve), our own Adam (or... OK, we get it).

So, this is a case where I have to give credit to a non-Hindu scripture for being pretty much on point.

Salam, Yes you are quite right. Posts 15 and 20 show these ancient skeletons being found are morphologically, a diverse bunch and should be more accurately termed Homo sapiens idaltu.

"the Ethiopian skeletal remains are not totally dissociated anatomically from ‘earlier’ type human bones, i.e. despite being clearly Homo sapiens, they show some features reminiscent of ‘archaic human anatomy. Hence the suggestion that they be given the fuller name Homo sapiens idàltu, indicating that they are a subspecies (i.e. subgroup) of our species."

So they might be like, very close to the One man you traced your DNA back to, but aren't from that specific branch of Homo Sapien.
btw, it's very cool that you traced your DNA back that far to the best Adam and Eve ever created, may God's peace be upon them both.

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations (Khulafa**) after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." [2:30]

**Khulafa' means inheritors of the earth.

Allamah Tabatabai says: “We can slightly deduce from 2:30 that before the creation of Prophet Adam (A.S.) there was a different generation of human beings who caused the angels to ask: Will you place in it someone who will make mischief in it and shed blood .”

This verse implies that another generation of human beings was created before the generation of human beings we know and are part of what was created, which the angels were initially familiar with.

A former Atheist explains it from 12:40 ...

Peace

 

[Muslim-UK]

For the Atheists:

Though I don't usually put much stock in NDEs, I came across one story from a Atheist born into a family with a Jewish Father and Christian Mother. His parents split when he was quite young and his mother raised him in New York, she wasn't a practising Christian.

He explains he hated religions and knew nothing about his Jewish faith. He suffers temporary death and recalls floating out of his body and rising higher and higher until looking back at the scene of his death, it appears little more than a blot on the landscape. He hears a voice which then holds him, guiding him up higher and higher. He looks back at this World and is shocked to see it and everything it contains looks like a 3 year old has been playing with lego bricks. It looks totally worthless.

After some time and lots of pain, he is presented before God in a Courtroom of sorts. He has to his left a Thousands of prosecutors, each one recording many sins. (he swore here, he stole there, he lied here and there, etc etc) On his right he has 2 defence solicitors, (lawyers) One recalls the day he was circumcised, Yes it was counted on his good deeds even though his parents were responsible for arranging it when he was 8 days old, another Solicitor recalls the time he was walking down the street, and reaching into his pocket for his phone, he accidentally dropped a dollar bill. Walking a minute behind him was a homeless man, who coming across the bill used it to buy something to eat, so although the man did not give the beggar this money, he was still rewarded for it.

What does this Atheist's account have to do with Islam?

And indeed, [appointed] over you are keepers, Noble and recording; They know whatever you do. Qur'an 82:10-12

Every single person has two angels who write down his deeds, both good and bad, minor and major. God says:

“But verily, over you (are appointed angels in charge of mankind) to watch you,

Kiraman (Honourable) Katibeen —writing down (your deeds),

They know all that you do.” [82:10-12]

“And indeed We have created man, and We know what his own self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).

(Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being), one sitting on the right and one on the left (to note his or her actions).

Not a word does he (or she) utter but there is a watcher by him ready (to record it).” [50:16-18]

The angel on the right records hasanat (good deeds) and the angel on the left records sayyiat (bad deeds).

It was reported from Abu Umamah that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The angel on the left does not write down anything until six hours have passed after a Muslim does a bad deed. If he regrets it and asks Allah for forgiveness, he casts it aside [does not write it down], otherwise he writes down one (sayyiah/bad deed).”


Here's the Atheist's account, (now a respected Jewish Scholar) skip to 58 mins or watch the whole thing, very interesting.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The innocent Jews had their free will removed by the evil nazis. ,<<<< Blame man, not God.

Who is/was being tested then, exactly? The Jews (and others the Nazis killed), or the Nazis? Both?

You told me that life is a test designed by the god you worship. That terrible things will happen to us, but that God doesn't give out more than we can cope with. So, at least some of the blame must lie at that god's feet for designing the test in the first place.

Absolutely no soul is wronged in the hereafter. Those Jews were innocent people. Imagine we over rule God's plan and pretend there was no test on Earth. God knows who is destined for hell and paradise. You are presented before God and told to enter the fire, you will naturally protest, for what reason? That would be unjust of God. Now when those Nazis are presented before God and told where they will abide, they can not dare to question the ultimate Judge. I hope that makes sense.

Okay, now you've confused me even more. So life is a test that god gives us, but this god already knows who is destined for hell or paradise? Is that what you're saying? Now it appears to me that the point of the test is just to be mean. Does your god dislike humans that much?

It's a terrible shame that the Jews (and others) were so badly wronged in the one life we know human beings actually get. Promises of ultimate justice in some afterlife is just another example of wishful thinking, in my opinion. And I have to say, your description of your god doesn't sound all that just anyway.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Who is/was being tested then, exactly? The Jews (and others the Nazis killed), or the Nazis? Both?

Both. The Jews clung to their faith, and put their trust in God. If the rumours were true and through that door was a gas chamber, they fully trusted God would accept their faith and permit them into Heaven. <<<< This was their terrible test. If the Nazis asked if they were Jews, they could have chosen to deny it in the hope of being let go. Though I'm sure the Nazis knew who was and wasn't a Jew before hand.

When you absolutely cornered and death is imminent, believers are told never to let go of God's hand. History shows people have been gassed, tortured, burnt, crucified whilst never denying God. Martyrs in the sight of God, may every single one of them be admitted into Paradise.

The Nazis were tested, will they obey their Commanders and be complicit in mass murder, or will they use their free will and fight back/walk away, face being killed themselves etc

You told me that life is a test designed by the god you worship. That terrible things will happen to us, but that God doesn't give out more than we can cope with. So, at least some of the blame must lie at that god's feet for designing the test in the first place.

Natural disasters, earthquakes, tsunami, hurricanes, lightening strikes etc are designed by God. We know volcanoes erupt over a period of time, do we live in their shadows or move to safer pastures? We know to take cover when storms rage. We have designed early warning systems etc. Mankind has tremendous potential to either be evil or work and strive to better humanity.

Okay, now you've confused me even more. So life is a test that god gives us, but this god already knows who is destined for hell or paradise? Is that what you're saying?

Yes exactly what I'm saying. God is Omniscient. He knows what will happen, but gives us freewill so that we may use it to confirm our final destination for ourselves.

For example, imagine you are talking to someone and are in disagreement, the other person slaps your face, and says sorry but God made me do it, it was written. <<< You would never accept such nonsense and likely hit the person right back; correct?

Similarly, If you are given a rifle to hunt deer, you can hunt your next meal or walk into a bank and attempt to rob it. Your free choice. Does that make sense?

Now it appears to me that the point of the test is just to be mean. Does your god dislike humans that much?

Remember we have been given with intellect and freewill. You lose your job, home etc Will you hate God for it or be patient, put your trust in God and soldier on and who knows, get a better Job, a better home. The tests determine whether we allow ourselves to grow spiritually or if will stunt our growth.

It's a terrible shame that the Jews (and others) were so badly wronged in the one life we know human beings actually get.

Man wronged them using free will.

There is a story in the Qur'an about Moses pbuh who comes across a servant of God who had certain knowledge; It has to be remembered Moses pbuh thought himself a man of great patience:

And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.

Moses said to him, "May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?" He said, "Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.

And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?"

[Moses] said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order."

He said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention."

So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidh r tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing."

[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?"

[Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."


So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidh r killed him. [Moses] said, "Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing."

[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?"

[Moses] said, "If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse."


So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidh r restored it. [Moses] said, "If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment."

[Al-Khidh r] said, "This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.

As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.


And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.

So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.

And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience."


Qur'an 18:65-82

Before we rush to be critical we should be patient and wait for God to explain matters that are hidden from us.

Promises of ultimate justice in some afterlife is just another example of wishful thinking, in my opinion. And I have to say, your description of your god doesn't sound all that just anyway.

Well in that case don't believe in God, just blame mankind for everything, or put it down to bad luck. Believers of course will just be patient and await the hereafter as illustrated above.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Both. The Jews clung to their faith, and put their trust in God. If the rumours were true and through that door was a gas chamber, they fully trusted God would accept their faith and permit them into Heaven. <<<< This was their terrible test. If the Nazis asked if they were Jews, they could have chosen to deny it in the hope of being let go. Though I'm sure the Nazis knew who was and wasn't a Jew before hand.

You have no idea what those poor people were thinking or where they were putting their faith. You can’t speak for them.


Why the need for this terrible test in the first place? That’s kind of the point I’m getting at here. Furthermore, you can’t say it’s a test from god to see what they’re going to do, and at the same time say that god already knows beforehand who is going to heaven and who isn’t. If it is the case that god already knows who is going to heaven and hell beforehand AND he tests us all in these awful ways, then I have to say again, that such a god is not worthy of worship.

When you absolutely cornered and death is imminent, believers are told never to let go of God's hand. History shows people have been gassed, tortured, burnt, crucified whilst never denying God.

And others have turned from god. And?


Why does your god require that we have to be tested in such heartless and disgusting ways?

Martyrs in the sight of God, may every single one of them be admitted into Paradise.

Why does god need martyrs?


Are the martyrs that flew planes into the World Trade Centre basking in paradise somewhere?

The Nazis were tested, will they obey their Commanders and be complicit in mass murder, or will they use their free will and fight back/walk away, face being killed themselves etc

Boy oh boy, this is some sick game that your god plays. All this is going on while your god sits there watching 6 million people being systematically murdered, already knowing ahead of time who is going to be admitted to paradise/hell. So basically this divine test is just in place for your God’s amusement, by the sound of it.

Natural disasters, earthquakes, tsunami, hurricanes, lightening strikes etc are designed by God. We know volcanoes erupt over a period of time, do we live in their shadows or move to safer pastures? We know to take cover when storms rage. We have designed early warning systems etc. Mankind has tremendous potential to either be evil or work and strive to better humanity.

So like I said then, god does actually have some responsibility here.

Yes exactly what I'm saying. God is Omniscient. He knows what will happen, but gives us freewill so that we may use it to confirm our final destination for ourselves.

Further confirmation that god tests us for his own amusement. Like I said at the beginning, I find that sickening and immoral.

For example, imagine you are talking to someone and are in disagreement, the other person slaps your face, and says sorry but God made me do it, it was written. <<< You would never accept such nonsense and likely hit the person right back; correct?

I’m sorry but I don’t know where you’re going with this.


I probably would not hit them back, since I’m not much of a fighter.

Similarly, If you are given a rifle to hunt deer, you can hunt your next meal or walk into a bank and attempt to rob it. Your free choice. Does that make sense?

Not really. My issue was with the idea that god is testing us for his own sick amusement, because “he” already knows what will ultimately happen anyway.

Remember we have been given with intellect and freewill. You lose your job, home etc Will you hate God for it or be patient, put your trust in God and soldier on and who knows, get a better Job, a better home.

I don’t see that god has anything at all to do with me losing my job or my home. I wouldn’t pray to god to fix it; rather, I’d go take care of it myself.


Not sure what this has to do with what I said.

The tests determine whether we allow ourselves to grow spiritually or if will stunt our growth.

What difference does it make if our destinies are already predetermined?

Man wronged them using free will.


There is a story in the Qur'an about Moses pbuh who comes across a servant of God who had certain knowledge; It has to be remembered Moses pbuh thought himself a man of great patience:


And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.


Moses said to him, "May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?" He said, "Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.


And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?"


[Moses] said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order."


He said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention."


So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidh r tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing."


[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?"


[Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."



So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidh r killed him. [Moses] said, "Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing."


[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?"


[Moses] said, "If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse."



So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidh r restored it. [Moses] said, "If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment."


[Al-Khidh r] said, "This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.


As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.



And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.


So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.


And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience."



Qur'an 18:65-82


Before we rush to be critical we should be patient and wait for God to explain matters that are hidden from us.

When has god ever explained anything to anyone, and how can I verify this?

Well in that case don't believe in God, just blame mankind for everything, or put it down to bad luck. Believers of course will just be patient and await the hereafter as illustrated above.

I can’t believe in things for which I cannot find any good evidence. That’s just the way I’m wired. And I can’t worship anything/anyone that I find to be sick and immoral. I’m not much of a worshiper of anything anyway.

 

[Muslim-UK]

You have no idea what those poor people were thinking or where they were putting their faith. You can’t speak for them.


Why the need for this terrible test in the first place? That’s kind of the point I’m getting at here. Furthermore, you can’t say it’s a test from god to see what they’re going to do, and at the same time say that god already knows beforehand who is going to heaven and who isn’t. If it is the case that god already knows who is going to heaven and hell beforehand AND he tests us all in these awful ways, then I have to say again, that such a god is not worthy of worship.




And others have turned from god. And?


Why does your god require that we have to be tested in such heartless and disgusting ways?




Why does god need martyrs?


Are the martyrs that flew planes into the World Trade Centre basking in paradise somewhere?




Boy oh boy, this is some sick game that your god plays. All this is going on while your god sits there watching 6 million people being systematically murdered, already knowing ahead of time who is going to be admitted to paradise/hell. So basically this divine test is just in place for your God’s amusement, by the sound of it.





So like I said then, god does actually have some responsibility here.







Further confirmation that god tests us for his own amusement. Like I said at the beginning, I find that sickening and immoral.




I’m sorry but I don’t know where you’re going with this.


I probably would not hit them back, since I’m not much of a fighter.




Not really. My issue was with the idea that god is testing us for his own sick amusement, because “he” already knows what will ultimately happen anyway.



I don’t see that god has anything at all to do with me losing my job or my home. I wouldn’t pray to god to fix it; rather, I’d go take care of it myself.


Not sure what this has to do with what I said.



What difference does it make if our destinies are already predetermined?




When has god ever explained anything to anyone, and how can I verify this?





I can’t believe in things for which I cannot find any good evidence. That’s just the way I’m wired. And I can’t worship anything/anyone that I find to be sick and immoral. I’m not much of a worshiper of anything anyway.

Like most people in your position, you can't understand freewill and predestination, as such you want to see God step in and stop evil, which is not part of the plan. You think this life is all there is, so I can understand your position.

You have your way and I have mine.
Peace

 

[SkepticThinker]

Like most people in your position, you can't understand freewill and predestination, as such you want to see God step in and stop evil, which is not part of the plan. You think this life is all there is, so I can understand your position.

You have your way and I have mine.
Peace

I'm actually taking issue with your contradictory explanations about how your god supposedly operates. Predestination doesn't seem to jibe with this test you are describing.
I think I understand free will just fine. The problem is, that it doesn't appear to make sense in light of your explanations about your god.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I'm actually taking issue with your contradictory explanations about how your god supposedly operates. Predestination doesn't seem to jibe with this test you are describing.
I think understand free will just fine. The problem is, that it doesn't appear to make sense in light of your explanations about your god.

Let's take God out of the equation. Now the Nazis would ask you what's the problem will killing Millions of people, whether they be Jews, Christians, Atheists or Muslims.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Let's take God out of the equation. Now the Nazis would ask you what's the problem will killing Millions of people, whether they be Jews, Christians, Atheists or Muslims.

Because, as heard animals, we collectively decided that it is WRONG to simply murder folk Just Because.

I do not need any more justification than that.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Because, as heard animals, we collectively decided that it is WRONG to simply murder folk Just Because.

I do not need any more justification than that.

So we get our morale compass from nature?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So we get our morale compass from nature?

Yep. Human morality was inherited from Nature. You can observe the basic rules in Nature, among herd/group animals.

It is best summed up: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

All religions include this phrase to a greater or lessor degree-- except when it's ignored of course.

You see it being ignored anytime there are christian or islamic terrorists at work.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yep. Human morality was inherited from Nature. You can observe the basic rules in Nature, among herd/group animals.


It is best summed up: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

If we take our morality from nature, then why blame a herd of people who decide for themselves what is morally acceptable and not. For example on the issue of the Holocaust:

It becomes impossible to condemn Genocide, war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, or love as good. It does not matter what values you choose, for there is no right and wrong; good and evil do not exist.

That means that an atrocity like the Holocaust was really morally indifferent. You may think that it was wrong, but your opinion has no more validity than that of the Nazi war criminal who thought it was good.

In his book Morality after Auschwitz, Peter Haas asks how an entire society could have willingly participated in a state-sponsored program of mass torture and genocide for over a decade without any serious opposition.

He argues that far from being contemptuous of ethics, the perpetrators acted in strict conformity with an ethic which held that, however difficult and unpleasant the task might have been, mass extermination of the Jews and Gypsies was entirely justified. . . . the Holocaust as a sustained effort was possible only because a new ethic was in place that did not define the arrest and deportation of Jews as wrong and in fact defined it as ethically tolerable and ever good.

Remember morality is purely subjective according to you. Can you prove Peter Haas wrong using a naturalistic approach?

All religions include this phrase to a greater or lessor degree-- except when it's ignored of course.

You see it being ignored anytime there are christian or islamic terrorists at work.

Yes and non believers too responsible for the deaths of Hundreds of Millions of innocent people.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let's take God out of the equation. Now the Nazis would ask you what's the problem will killing Millions of people, whether they be Jews, Christians, Atheists or Muslims.

Why would we take the subject of what we're talking about out of the discussion??

 

[Muslim-UK]

Why would we take the subject of what we're talking about out of the discussion??

Because I'm trying to see if your explanation of the World makes more sense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If we take our morality from nature, then why blame a herd of people who decide for themselves what is morally acceptable and not. For example on the issue of the Holocaust:

Because actions have consequences. Their actions will have consequences that affect other people. Those other people are going to have something to say about it.

Morality comes from us and has to do with our well-being. It's the only place it truly can come from. Morality benefits us both individually and as a group, so it's in everyone's best interest to care about morality (i.e. the well-being of living creatures, especially human beings). We're the ones practicing it, and we're the ones affected by it, so why wouldn't it come from us? Why do you think morality has to come from some place outside of ourselves?

It becomes impossible to condemn Genocide, war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, or love as good. It does not matter what values you choose, for there is no right and wrong; good and evil do not exist.

It doesn't become impossible at all. I can easily condemn all of those things as actions that negatively effect the well-being of human beings. If every one of us carried out genocide and murder our species would have died out long ago.

Why can't I praise brotherhood, equality and love as good?

That means that an atrocity like the Holocaust was really morally indifferent.

How so? And what do you mean?

You may think that it was wrong, but your opinion has no more validity than that of the Nazi war criminal who thought it was good.

Sure it does. They were harming a great deal of people. That is bad for the well-being of human beings. The Allied forces collectively decided that what they were doing was horribly wrong and worked to stop them (and succeeded).

In his book Morality after Auschwitz, Peter Haas asks how an entire society could have willingly participated in a state-sponsored program of mass torture and genocide for over a decade without any serious opposition.

There are a lot of psychological reasons for this that we need to be aware of so that we don't make the same kinds of mistakes over and over. We must learn from our history and strive to be better. And I think for the most part, we have been doing that. Slavery is no longer acceptable to us, in the Western world, at least. We no longer kill witches en masse. Just for a couple of examples.

If we are just following the orders of some god, I would argue that we're not actually exercising morality at all; rather, we're just doing what we're told. In essence, we'd be doing what the Nazis did.

When the full implication of what the Nazis were doing was exposed to the world, the Nazis did actually end up with serious opposition.

He argues that far from being contemptuous of ethics, the perpetrators acted in strict conformity with an ethic which held that, however difficult and unpleasant the task might have been, mass extermination of the Jews and Gypsies was entirely justified. . . . the Holocaust as a sustained effort was possible only because a new ethic was in place that did not define the arrest and deportation of Jews as wrong and in fact defined it as ethically tolerable and ever good.

I disagree. What the Nazis were doing was objectively bad/wrong for at least 6 million people.

Remember morality is purely subjective according to you. Can you prove Peter Haas wrong using a naturalistic approach?

Morality is not purely subjective. Once we can agree that morality is about the well-being of living creatures, in any given situation, there will be an objectively right (or good) action to take and probably some wrong (or bad) options as well. Then we have to take the time to figure out them which is the best action to take, using that criterion.

Yes and non believers too responsible for the deaths of Hundreds of Millions of innocent people.

Who are these hundreds of millions of innocent people and who are the non believers who are responsible for their deaths?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let's take God out of the equation. Now the Nazis would ask you what's the problem will killing Millions of people, whether they be Jews, Christians, Atheists or Muslims.

I would ask them how they would feel if someone tortured and killed their children just because they didn't like the way they looked or thought about something.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If we take our morality from nature, then why blame a herd of people who decide for themselves what is morally acceptable and not. For example on the issue of the Holocaust:

It becomes impossible to condemn Genocide, war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, or love as good. It does not matter what values you choose, for there is no right and wrong; good and evil do not exist.

Wrong. On so many levels wrong. Proof that Hitler's pogroms were wrong? Is History: he lost. Because enough disparate and former enemies agreed enough that he was wrong they put aside their differences, and stopped him.

No god helped. At all. ALL GODS WERE COMPLETE NO-SHOWS.

And that is the most damning fact of all: No gods stepped up to stop Hitler.

So much for your vaunted "holey" books-- if there was any truth to these? It would be god's RESPONSIBILITY TO STEP UP ANY TIME THE HITLERS OF THE WORLD ROSE TO POWER.

THAT IS THE BAREST MINIMUM STANDARD OF ETHICS.

The fact that YOUR GOD utterly and 100% failed to ACT? Proves your god isn't capable of being godly.