need to know?

[joeboonda]

Hi, Summia. Love and Peace to you. I was hoping you would discuss with me more about Isaac and Ishmael from my post earlier. Here is the post, but I shortened it for lack of space:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand Isaac means laughter because Sarah laughed when she heard God promise she would become pregnant at such an old age. And you are correct about Ishmael's name'for the Bible says God HEARD Hagar's affliction:

Genesis 16
11And the angel of the LORD said unto her (Hagar), Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction

Note that God heard HAGAR's affliction, NOT Abraham's. For Sarah had kicked her out because she was angry because she had not conceived yet. This is in Genesis 16 if you want to read the story.

Here are some verses about Isaac and God's promise:

Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
21
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Genesis 21:3
And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Here we see Isaac was born of Sarah and that God would establish His covenant with him for an everlasting covenant. What we believe about this is that Jesus Christ came from Isaac's line and it is through Him that salvation is available to all the world. Here are some verses that you would probably consider lies but they do not conflict with the rest of the Bible:

Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
9-13And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
23:10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

The verse I underlined is significant to us Christians because Jesus said:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, just as Abraham was so obedient to God that he was willing to offer his only son, God offered His only Son that whoever believes in him may have everlasting life. Here are some verses we believe:

Hebrews 11

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Just as Abraham believed God was able to raise Isaac from the dead, God raised His Son, Jesus. who actually was sacrificed for our sins, from the dead. You see how this ties in with our core beliefs? Of course we both believe we are right and the other wrong about this, but I wanted to share a little bit about my beliefs.

Here is the promise God gave to Abraham:

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This last phrase, that in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed, we believe as I said, that Jesus descended from the line of Isaac, who begat Jacob, who begat twelve sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel through whom came Jesus, the Messiah. "All families of the earth" may be blessed by believing in Jesus for eternal life, which is a free gift to all who believe Jesus paid for all our sins on the cross and rose again.

The Bible also says good things about Ishmael. I will give some background verses then the verses that tell what God says about Ishmael. Note that God told Hagar to name him Ishmael because He heard HER affliction, not Abraham's:

Genesis 16

10And the angel of the LORD said unto her (Hagar), I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
15And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.

The Bible says God would make of Ismael a great nation, which He did. Here is a bit more scripture:

Genesis 17
15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

So we see from these verses that God promised Sarah a baby but Abraham tried to make it happen on his own and conceived Ishmael by Hagar. But Sarah did miraculously conceive and had Isaac through whom God said all nations will be blessed--we believe because through his line Jesus would come to save anyone who calls upon His name. Yet, Ishmael is also blessed of God (God heard Hagar's cries) but no covenant is made with him that through his seed all nations would be blessed, yet he would still begat a great nation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed in your last post you believe Jesus complained about being crucified. While he did pray while alone for the cup to be removed, he told the Father, nevertheless not my will, but thine be done, and submitted himself in obedience. He did not complain to anyone as Isaiah says:

Isaiah 53
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

I welcome discussion on these and may the Holy Spirit guide you and give you peace!

Mike

 

[FatMan]

I'm still confused. If you started a thread truly with "needing to know", why do you keep rejecting every attempt to educate you as being "false"?? If you already knew that which you are holding up as the Truth and will not accept nor listen to that being offered to you as possible truth, did you really want to know to begin with??

I don't know what the real Truth is, but I'm not going to be arrogant enough to simply reject all that is presented to me because it doesn't jibe with what I believe. If that were the case, I'll start a thread entitled, "Tell me what I need to know, and I'll tell you you're wrong".

The sad part is that all of the arrogant responses are made in a nearly incomprehendable format.

 

[sojourner]

There is difference in religion and culture Sir!
religion is not whatever u write by ur wish and saying it God's word!

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـٰذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ ٱللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ


“Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, " This is from Allah " , that they may purchase a small gain therewith Woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they earn thereby” (2:79)

I'm not here to win my self, i'm here to tell the truth!
Why r u doing the same as u did before while slaying ur own savior at the cross!

Whether you like it or not, religion is an expression of culture. Religion is how humanity expresses God, whether in scripture, ritual, prayer, etc.

Your quote is from the Koran. Not part of my belief system. However, we believe that we are the Body of Christ. We further believe that Christ is God Incarnate. Therefore, we share in God's divinity and carry out God's work in the world, sometimes through writing and interpreting scripture.

If you're "here to tell the truth," why are you, instead, merely mucking up the Bible and Christianity with meaningless grafitti?

 

[sojourner]

Oh yeah!
I have forgot!
you don't believe in Quran then why I gave you proof from Quran about writting scriptures with your own hand.....

Herez the Biblical proof....

Let us look at what GOD Almighty Said in the Bible:
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?'(From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Too bad this passage has absolutely nothing to do with authorship of the Bible.

Too bad it's not what "God Almighty said in the Bible," but what someone said a prophet said.

Thanks for playing...

 

[sojourner]

Now every one have concluded nothing to say any more !

If people can write their own scripture while Bible is clearly warnig to write scriptures, then debating about Bible is of no avail.
If the people can write the scripture while saying it God’s word then every thing can be expect to them.
1)they can wiped out the name of Muhammad (prophecy of Muhammad) in the bible.
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?'(From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
2)They can also change their biblical version while original text is some thing else

3) they can also place name if Isaac intead if Ishmael who placed at altar.
Thanx sonjouner!
Only you told the truth at the post!

They have eyes, but they do not see. They have ears, but they refuse to hear.

Your arguments are unsubstantiated. Assumptions are not facts, despite your ardent wishing them to be.

The Bible is not "clearly warning not to write scripture." I don't care what you think that passage means. It does not mean what you think it means.

The Bible is a living document, not a dead museum piece.

Thank you! I think I shall place Isaac on the altar.

 

[sojourner]

Name of Muhammad pbuh in Hebrew Bible:

There is an important prophecy in the Song of Solomon (5:9-16).
In this prophecy, the one who is spoken of here is the beloved of God. One of the titles of Hadhrat Muhammad pbuh is Habibullah -- the beloved one of God.

Secondly: "My beloved is white and ruddy". This was the color of Hadhrat Muhammad pbuh,

Thirdly, "Chiefest among then thousands". We have already shown that Hadhrat Muhammad pbuh was at the head of ten thousand f ollowers at the time of the conquest of Mecca.

The fourth and most striking point in this prophecy is the name of Hadhrat Muhammad pbuh in verse 16. It reads: "Yea, he is altogether lovely" in English Bible. In the Hebrew Bible, the word is "Muhammad-im".
(See Hebrew Bible printed for the British and Foreign Bible Society by Trowitzsch & Sons, Berlin, P. 1159)

Too bad the Song of Solomon is not prophecy, but poetry...

 

[summia]

I never ever wish from you to accept the truth coz if you were accepter of truth then you surly take a look at the orignal texts of your Scripture.

And one thing more, I never misunderstood coz I know about Hebrew scripture.

As far as you concern to admire the true facts, I don't care coz within few months poeple at the live debate will be with me Inshallah!
I'm just practising here in this forum!

I'm form Scriptural investigation department.

Too bad the Song of Solomon is not prophecy, but poetry...

What's the sense?

You know! when my younger brother (5 years old) finds no means to defeat me, he also breaks out with such pharases!!!

 

[FatMan]

And one thing more, I never misunderstood coz I know about Hebrew scripture.

As far as you concern to admire the true facts, I don't care coz within few months poeple at the live debate will be with me Inshallah!
I'm just practising here in this forum!

I'm form Scriptural investigation department.

If you are so informed and need no more knowledge, then I'd recommend picking up a dictionary to at least be able to get this excellent, well informed, point of view across when participating in a live debate.

This may be astonishingly difficult to believe, but a major factor in winning a debate is the ability to communicate effectively.

So, continue to practice. I would simply recommend that you do it in a different form, so rhetorical questions don't have to be asked as thread starters, and any offer of disagreement to your points of view aren't continued to be responded to with unintelligible rantings.

It really isn't so keen to start a thread asking to know something and then completely dismissing all of that presented to you, especially by the folks better than I who actually were trying to assist.

 

[sojourner]

I never ever wish from you to accept the truth coz if you were accepter of truth then you surly take a look at the orignal texts of your Scripture.

And one thing more, I never misunderstood coz I know about Hebrew scripture.

As far as you concern to admire the true facts, I don't care coz within few months poeple at the live debate will be with me Inshallah!
I'm just practising here in this forum!

I'm form Scriptural investigation department.



What's the sense?

You know! when my younger brother (5 years old) finds no means to defeat me, he also breaks out with such pharases!!!

Truth is, you have a bias toward the Hebrew that shines brightly here, belying your claim that you are a "scriptural investigator." Investigators ply their trade without passion or prejudice. So, what's really going on here? (Besides Christian-bashing, I mean?)

You know, when dealing with 5-year-olds, one has to meet them where they are, on their level... any good parent knows that.

 

[summia]

They have eyes, but they do not see. They have ears, but they refuse to hear.

Very Good!
The same is in Quran:

صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

Deaf, dumb and blind so they return not (2:18)

I hope you will improve more to understand more verses of Quran.

Your arguments are unsubstantiated. Assumptions are not facts, despite your ardent wishing them to be.

And now you are seemed to be proved so (Your arguments are unsubstantiated)
I remember that I have posted all posts with refences and valid arguments.
Check it again plz!

The Bible is not "clearly warning not to write scripture." I don't care what you think that passage means. It does not mean what you think it means.

I don't think, I trust that I got the real means....

Wheres the Biblical verse that support your argument about "The Bible is not "clearly warning not to write scripture." "
Look!
Here you r seemed to be proved what you say (i.e. Assumptions are not facts)

The Bible is a living document, not a dead museum piece.

That's MY SPECIAL APEAL to all Christain, plz Taurah and Injeel was living documents then why you changed it?

Thank you! I think I shall place Isaac on the altar.

O no!
You have extended all the limits. really!

 

[summia]

a major factor in winning a debate is the ability to communicate effectively.

Do i tell you the better factor of debate????
Yeah!
it is not to win but reached at the perfect conclusion
debate is not to win:no: plz don't say such foolish again!

It really isn't so keen to start a thread asking to know something and then completely dismissing all of that presented to you, especially by the folks better than I who actually were trying to assist.

step 1:
"need to know?"

step 2:

Why Bible said nothing about Muhammad pbuh?

Step 3:

Some christains said "yes"!
some said "nothing"!

Okay Okay!
I take the fourth step.

Step 4:
prove it with valid argument!

Step 5:

one of your fellow with out understanding commentry posted the false argument.

Okay Okay I check it!

step 6:

O Waw!

Their is about Muhammad hidden inside the Hebrew text.
GREAT!

step 7:

My argument was rejected by some fellows having no knowledge about Hebrew.

Okay OKAy then I took the last step!
step 7:

Why your Bible say nothing about Muhammad pbuh? While you all Christains usually claim that Muhammad pbuh is false prophet ?(may Allah Almighyt forgive!)

Then do you think still you are illigible to tell me how to debate???

 

[sojourner]

Very Good!
The same is in Quran:

صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

Deaf, dumb and blind so they return not (2:18)

I hope you will improve more to understand more verses of Quran.



And now you are seemed to be proved so (Your arguments are unsubstantiated)
I remember that I have posted all posts with refences and valid arguments.
Check it again plz!

I don't think, I trust that I got the real means....

Wheres the Biblical verse that support your argument about "The Bible is not "clearly warning not to write scripture." "
Look!
Here you r seemed to be proved what you say (i.e. Assumptions are not facts)

That's MY SPECIAL APEAL to all Christain, plz Taurah and Injeel was living documents then why you changed it?



O no!
You have extended all the limits. really!

This is pointless. You think you know. Bully for you! Go to your live debate and put up your best shot. It has fallen short of the rim here, though. You said you came here to learn. But you're not playing that game. You're playing the game of "Lets bash the Christians over the head with lame scholarship and rampant bias." Those kinds of tactics do not make for good debate. Perhaps that is what you need to learn here.

 

[summia]

Truth is, you have a bias toward the Hebrew that shines brightly here, belying your claim that you are a "scriptural investigator." Investigators ply their trade without passion or prejudice. So, what's really going on here? (Besides Christian-bashing, I mean?)

How do you know about "scriptural investigator." so, Have you any anccident to why r you Blaming so?

You know, when dealing with 5-year-olds, one has to meet them where they are, on their level... any good parent knows that.

O GOd!
Sir, i have read in your intro. you have wife and Children, do you think should i deal you like 5 years old kid???

 

[summia]

This is pointless. You think you know. Bully for you! Go to your live debate and put up your best shot. It has fallen short of the rim here, though. You said you came here to learn. But you're not playing that game. You're playing the game of "Lets bash the Christians over the head with lame scholarship and rampant bias." Those kinds of tactics do not make for good debate. Perhaps that is what you need to learn here.

I think you r so angry!

Okay we will talk later, plz Cheer up at least you have told the truth about "Bible is wrriten, we wrote Bible."

Okay I need some sleep!

Byeeeeeee!

 

[*Paul*]

Therefore ye killed him!

Summia, I was unaware you had responded to me, the last time I checked you hadn't so I apologise if you think i ignored you - now your response to me in the other thread makes sense.

I killed Him? He died for me, He gave His life for me and He took it back again. It was for my sins that He died and for your sins. I have been buried with Him and have risen in HIm:


Epistle to Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Colossians 2:12-13 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So far as I am aware the Scriptures to not attribute His murder to me, I'll take the logic of scripture over yours.

Yeah! He was your life but Alas! Ye put their life at cross.

He is my life, He died so He could rise from the dead so that I can share in His resurection life.

Epistle to Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1st Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1st Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And to be victorious over death:


1st Corinthians 15:25-26 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Where’s so?
I know Biblical verses, bring them at the post. So that I may inform you good understanding of Biblical meanings.

As you will see I was quoting scripture in my speech with out giving you the references:


Epistle to Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2nd Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

How can you say that Muhammad did nothing for, O man!
Your savior Jesus is in Quran,

Mohammed has nothing to offer me because God in Jesus Christ has justified (declared not guilty) those who believe from all things. Here is your quote:


Acts 13:37-39 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

I ask you!
As Christain claims that Quran is Muhammad’s handy scripture then why Muhammad used to praise Jesus as a prophet?

He praises Him as a prophet and makes Him out to be a liar saying that He was not crucified:

Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.


Luke 24:25-26 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

I believe the Words of My risen Saviour whom God the Father would not leave in the grave to see corruption of His flesh.

 

[*Paul*]

Point number 1: this verse don’t explain about the prophethood. It explains that “Jesus is the first and last Messiah”
No NO! I’m not claiming so. Look here, your own schiorlars are commenting about this verse. And see I’m not putting one type of commentary this time but all the gathered commentaries about this verse…
Let’s have a Look!

Did you miss something in this commentary? it confirms exactly what I said:

Revelation 1:17 Parallel Commentaries (underlined consideration!)


NASB:When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, (NASB ©1995)

GSB:1:17 {10} And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. {11} And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; {12} I am the first and the last:
(10) A religious fear, that goes before the calling of the saints, and their full confirmation to take on them the vocation of God.
(11) A divine confirmation of this calling, partly by sign, and partly by word of power.
(12) A most elegant description of this calling contained in three things, which are necessary to a just vocation: first the authority of him who calls, for he is the beginning and end of all things, in this verse, for he is eternal and omnipotent Re 1:8. Secondly the sum of his prophetic calling and revelation Re 1:9. Lastly a declaration of those persons to whom this prophecy is by the commandment of God directed in the description of it Re 1:20.

That is the very point i made, He is the beginning and the end of all things therefore we have all we need in Him.

Look! In this commentary there is no proof of Jesus as the last PROPHET. Yeah! But he is the last Messiah. And that’s same as Muslims believe.
They believe that Jesus pbuh is alive and will come back.

Yeah to break the cross and to institute Islam worldwide. Likely story.

 

[*Paul*]

PNT:1:17 I fell at his feet as dead. Overcome with awe. No sinful man can stand before God and live; hence the impression made by the appearance of the Lord is that of terror.
Fear not. But when the Lord spoke to the disciple it was with the old love. How often before had Jesus said Fear not.
I am the first and the last. See PNT Re 1:8. The attributes claimed for Jehovah are also claimed for Christ.

Verse explains about Jehovah claim for Christ but not Muhammad pbuh.
Herez your scholar made my point so clear, he was not first and last prophet but Massiah (whom you refer to God in other words)

continue..........

I never said He is the first and last prophet, there are other prophets after Jesus, it is a ministry in the church. WHat it means is He is the beginning and end of all things which is what is claimed for God just as this commentary points out to you - the attributes of Jehovah are attributed to Jesus Christ by His own mouth no less. This is why I parrelled the scripture with the passage from Isaiah some 700 years before Jesus was alive on the earth. To show you that Jesus was claiming for Himself what Jehovah claims for Himself through the prophet Isaiah, I thought you would get my point, but thanks for showing me that the commentator agrees with me - that at least affirms my orthodoxy.

 

[*Paul*]

MHC:1:12-20 The churches receive their light from Christ and the gospel, and hold it forth to others. They are golden candlesticks; they should be precious and pure; not only the ministers, but the members of the churches; their light should so shine before men, as to engage others to give glory to God. And the apostle saw as though of the Lord Jesus Christ appeared in the midst of the golden candlesticks. He is with his churches always, to the end of the world, filling them with light, and life, and love. He was clothed with a robe down to the feet, perhaps representing his righteousness and priesthood, as Mediator. This vest was girt with a golden girdle, which may denote how precious are his love and affection for his people. His head and hairs white like wool and as snow, may signify his majesty, purity, and eternity. His eyes as a flame of fire, may represent his knowledge of the secrets of all hearts, and of the most distant events. His feet like fine brass burning in a furnace, may denote the firmness of his appointments, and the excellence of his proceedings. His voice as the sound of many waters, may represent the power of his word, to remove or to destroy. The seven stars were emblems of the ministers of the seven churches to which the apostle was ordered to write, and whom Christ upheld and directed. The sword represented his justice, and his word, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, Heb 4:12. His countenance was like the sun, when it shines clearly and powerfully; its strength too bright and dazzling for mortal eyes to behold. The apostle was overpowered with the greatness of the lustre and glory in which Christ appeared. We may well be contented to walk by faith, while here upon earth. The Lord Jesus spake words of comfort; Fear not. Words of instruction; telling who thus appeared. And his Divine nature; the First and the Last. His former sufferings; I was dead: the very same whom his disciples saw upon the cross. His resurrection and life; I have conquered death, and am partaker of endless life. His office and authority; sovereign dominion in and over the invisible world, as the Judge of all, from whose sentence there is no appeal. Let us listen to the voice of Christ, and receive the tokens of his love, for what can he withhold from those for whose sins he has died? May we then obey his word, and give up ourselves wholly to him who directs all things aright.

What I have underlined, your scholar made most clear my point that Jesus is not the Last PROPHET but last Messiah.
But I say Muhammad pbuh is the last prophet came after Jesus. Jesus dosen’t say that he is the last prophet but first and last Messiah!
Reference: New American Standard Bible Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, Calif. All rights reserved. For Permission to Quote Information visit http://www.lockman.org.

Reference link:http://biblecommenter.com/revelation/1-17.htm[/quote]


Youa re quoting from the brilliant Matthew Henry a man whose commentaries I highly respect - he was a puritan scholar.
You are fighting against the wind here Summia - you have assumed that I have said that Jesus is the last prophet when I have not, but I do not believe that a prophet will overturn and contradict a previous proven prophet. Mohammed does just this because He makes Jesus out to be a liar by saying that He was not crucifed when Jesus clearly said He would be and that He would rise again as I showed you earlier.

Keep on reading Matthew Henry you will be much better informed.

 

[FatMan]

Do i tell you the better factor of debate????
Yeah!
it is not to win but reached at the perfect conclusion
debate is not to win:no: plz don't say such foolish again!


step 1:
"need to know?"

step 2:

Why Bible said nothing about Muhammad pbuh?

Step 3:

Some christains said "yes"!
some said "nothing"!

Okay Okay!
I take the fourth step.

Step 4:
prove it with valid argument!

Step 5:

one of your fellow with out understanding commentry posted the false argument.

Okay Okay I check it!

step 6:

O Waw!

Their is about Muhammad hidden inside the Hebrew text.
GREAT!

step 7:

My argument was rejected by some fellows having no knowledge about Hebrew.

Okay OKAy then I took the last step!
step 7:

Why your Bible say nothing about Muhammad pbuh? While you all Christains usually claim that Muhammad pbuh is false prophet ?(may Allah Almighyt forgive!)

Then do you think still you are illigible to tell me how to debate???

Holy Moly!!! I can't understand one of those steps, let alone all seven.

This actually might be an excellent form of debate. Speak a language that is part English, part something else, and two parts of abbreviated manglings, and you will confound the opponent so much that his addled mind will have no way to respond.

Unfortunately, where you fail in the steps above (luckily it was the one I can best try to muddle through) is Step 4. Nobody has conclusively proved anything, but several people have set forth valid arguments, all which you have summarily rejected as being false. Seeing that you can't even communicate with any modicum of success, being the judge of what is valid is laughable if not downright hilarious.

Please start threads on the Islam/Muslim section of RF. That way, we won't need to engage in "debate" that is neither treated as such nor afforded the respect that debate can have.

 

[joeboonda]

And, Summia, you have not responded at all to my posts, last was #101 on page 11. I think I am outta here for now, too. Sorry I could not help you learn more about what I believe and could not learn more about you and your beliefs, too. The atmosphere is too tumultous on this thread for anyone to gain anything by it. Its really quite sad, I went to a lot of time and trouble to try to give you insight as to what and why I believe. Grace and Peace.
Mike