• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Netanyahu's Win: A Reality check for Israeli liberals (?)

Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think so. Liberal Israelis as I perceive them don't believe that a deal with Palestinians will bring peace, but they are still willing to go through with it. They would, for example, probably believe in forming a single republic including everyone living in the region including Gaza and West Bank. They are lot like hippies, heavily leaning towards pacifism and believing in the triumph of peaceful actions. They seem to believe in peace itself, not necessarily that making a deal with bring peace. If the deal is a gesture of peace then they believe in it. If it is part of a strategy of conquest, then they don't believe in it.

Liberal is a confusing term here. The innovation is on the part of the pro-settlement Israelis. Prior to the 6-day war Israelis would not have taken such risky choices as to turn down peace deals, but after that they decided they were not going to open their legs and bend over for anyone any more. It is the 'Liberal' factions that are conservative in this case, and the ones you are associating with religious conservatism are the activists. The settlements are the result of a change in heart not of a conservative impulse.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The spin goes so deep. (Not you brick.)

I can't help but notice how over and over again, so much of the fight is over the definition of terms. What's a "liberal"? What's a "conservative"? When the meanings of fundamental terms are in dispute, it seems no actual communication can occur... sigh.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Even though I wish it weren't the case, the peace process there is dead, and even most left-leaning Israelis now realize that. If it were just a matter of dealing with Abbas' el-Fatah, there would be some hope, but there simply is really no hope with Hamas controlling Gaza, especially since Abbas has stated that they are now working together.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
I think any Jew who has any affinity to Israel that votes for someone such as Obama or Hillary is either delusional or dumb as a rock.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
icehorse said:
I can't help but notice how over and over again, so much of the fight is over the definition of terms. What's a "liberal"? What's a "conservative"? When the meanings of fundamental terms are in dispute, it seems no actual communication can occur... sigh.
Click to expand...
I think they are confusing terms here in USA where for a long time we have used them as labels where they used to have functional meanings.
 
gsa

gsa

Well-Known Member
It won't bring peace right away, but it is necessary to save Israel from itself. The reality is that Israel simply isn't worth the drag of the Occupation on other Western interests in the region. The Israelis can't pretend they are invincible forever; we have bigger fish to fry, ones that they helped create alongside their de facto gulf allies.

If they won't abandon the West Bank settlements or propose a swap that's meaningful we should stand aside on recognition of a Palestinian state and ICC prosecution at the UN and with the EU.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
metis said:
Even though I wish it weren't the case, the peace process there is dead, and even most left-leaning Israelis now realize that. If it were just a matter of dealing with Abbas' el-Fatah, there would be some hope, but there simply is really no hope with Hamas controlling Gaza, especially since Abbas has stated that they are now working together.
Click to expand...
Putting aside miracles, I believe that the current fanatical path of settlement has a reasonable outcome -- a more secure territory. I also think that occupation is better than chaos, but it would be better if those territories came under control of a different power. I don't think the UN gives a dam despite its talk. Its got a very filthy history, so I can't imagine the UN bringing a solution. I suppose the plan is to wait for the UN to show some character and then if that happens get some help transferring these territories to other stable governments. Otherwise through diplomacy make a deal with Egypt and Jordan to provide some relief to those in the two territories. I think that because of the Hamas charter and the general anti-semitism in the territories its unrealistic to expect integration in with Israel. Instead Gaza and West Bank should be looking at eventually working with Egypt and Jordan but in the mean time Israel will continue to expand in the areas where its thin and vulnerable. It can continue to do so as long as they exhibit chaos.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
gsaseeker said:
It won't bring peace right away, but it is necessary to save Israel from itself. The reality is that Israel simply isn't worth the drag of the Occupation on other Western interests in the region. The Israelis can't pretend they are invincible forever; we have bigger fish to fry, ones that they helped create alongside their de facto gulf allies.

If they won't abandon the West Bank settlements or propose a swap that's meaningful we should stand aside on recognition of a Palestinian state and ICC prosecution at the UN and with the EU.
Click to expand...
What America should do is help destroy the PA/Hamas terrorist government.
 
gsa

gsa

Well-Known Member
CMike said:
What America should do is help destroy the PA/Hamas terrorist government.
Click to expand...

We do that and we'll have ISIS on the Israeli border. Hamas has repeatedly put down those nihilists since they're too extreme even for Hamas. All you're demonstrating is that you don't want a resolution.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
icehorse said:
I must admit that none of this was really news to me:

For liberal Israelis, Netanyahu's win is a reality check - Yahoo News

But it did make me circle back around to a question that's been asked before, but whose answer still puzzles me:

Do liberal Israelis really believe that a deal with the Palestinians will bring peace?
Click to expand...

Eh, I have to wonder if the article's title irony is intentional.

Calling the election of a "hard-liner" like Netanyahu a "reality check" can't help but be funny if a very bittersweet way.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Brickjectivity said:
Putting aside miracles, I believe that the current fanatical path of settlement has a reasonable outcome -- a more secure territory. I also think that occupation is better than chaos, but it would be better if those territories came under control of a different power. I don't think the UN gives a dam despite its talk. Its got a very filthy history, so I can't imagine the UN bringing a solution. I suppose the plan is to wait for the UN to show some character and then if that happens get some help transferring these territories to other stable governments. Otherwise through diplomacy make a deal with Egypt and Jordan to provide some relief to those in the two territories. I think that because of the Hamas charter and the general anti-semitism in the territories its unrealistic to expect integration in with Israel. Instead Gaza and West Bank should be looking at eventually working with Egypt and Jordan but in the mean time Israel will continue to expand in the areas where its thin and vulnerable. It can continue to do so as long as they exhibit chaos.
Click to expand...
The new Egyptian government is the enemy of Hamas and vice-versa. Also, Jordan is not in very good financial shape, especially since t has taken in so many refugees fleeing from Iraq and Syria. Also, el-Fatah has linked up with Hamas, and Jordan certainly is very much afraid of the latter.

As to the rest of your post, I very much agree with you. I have no doubt that the settlements that have been built and expanded in east Jerusalem are to make certain that a Palestinian capital there becomes impossible as it would be a strategic nightmare for both sides.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Partly I agree, but I disagree on the comments about Obama.

Yes, Netanyahu did step over the line. He did put his political campaign before the good of his country, but the real problem is he keeps encouraging the USA to rev up our war engines. That is short-sighted. USA may seem like some sort of angel to him, but he needs to recalculate. We aren't Jewish, and we are too powerful to trifle with. In 50 years we could be 1000 times the threat that Iran is. Israel should express interest in getting the USA out of the Middle East as soon as possible. That would be good long term planning.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Brickjectivity said:
Do you believe that Gaza and West Bank are capable of forming more peaceful governments?
Click to expand...
Not at this point in time, especially since Hamas is a religious organization that strongly believes in the Hadith dictate that once an area is Islamic, it must always remain Islamic. Obviously, this approach leaves no room for compromise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top