Skwim
Veteran Member
The only creationists I know of who believe in the process of evolution are Ken Ham and company who assert it took place among the animal kinds who got off the ark.
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New discoveries of 'missing links.'
- Thread starter shunyadragon
- Start date
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As a scientist I am uncomfortable using the word 'fact' to describe the science of evolution. It is more a 'bait word' that creates controversy and useless debate, and it does not reflect how science works in any discipline using the word 'fact,' It is best to say that the hypothesis of the science of evolution have been falsified beyond any reasonable doubt, and there is no other falsifiable hypothesis that explains the objective verifiable evidence supporting the science of evolution. Simply the science is falsified by scientific methods supported by facts.
Ont the other hand their are scientists and other Theists who do believe in the natural abiogenesis and evolution often described as Theistic Evolution.
The Theists who believe in Theistic Evolution are Creationists.
Skwim
Veteran Member
In main, theistic evolution is commonly considered to be evolution as it's presently regarded, with god as its initiator rather than abiogenesis or some other first cause. It isn't creationism in the vein of young earth creationism or old earth creationism, so I wouldn't label theists who believe in theistic evolution, "creationists."
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OK clarified.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Even many muslim theologians 800 years ago spoke of evolution. I think this evolution aversion by theologians is not new, but is only another view.
Anyway, I am no scientist so I thank you for your education and I concede.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
See, olden day theologians didnt have high end scientific research like we do now so their philosophical theories may not match upto modern day research. Of course. Even scientists could have been not exactly right or even completely wrong because especially evolution is an evolving science. (My words may not be scientific).
But there were old theologians, philosophers who spoke of evolution. Even some about primates evolving into humans over time. It's called attatweer in arabic. You can take an example of ibn khaldun. His book called al mukaddhima is available in english. He was writing in the 14 century. Even way before Darwin.
Also you should know that westerners called evolution as the muhammedan theory. Long ago brother.
Heyo
Veteran Member
They are called "Old Earth Creationists". There are different levels of crazy among creationists. Creationists is often used for Young Earth Creationists (YEC), mostly followers of Ken Ham and the like. But you can also call yourself a creationist when you accept the ToE and think that a god created only the first life and/or evolutions is guided by divine influence. You are also a creationist when you accept all of science and only think that the universe was created by a god in the Big Bang.
I try to use YEC whenever I talk about Hamist creationists.
Skwim
Veteran Member
firedragon
Veteran Member
No. Not the same.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Technically speaking.
In general, in day-to-day use of the word, a "creationist" refers to someone who explicitly denies evolution in the grand scheme of things, as in: humans being descendants of primates that are also the ancestors of chimps, gorilla's etc.
A self-identified creationist will not accept chimps being homo sapiens distant cousin.
To the point that if you ask a "theistic evolutionist" if he is a creationist, he'll answer "no, I'm a theistic evolutionist".
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
. . . maybe put in cages in zoos with the chimps. No wait . . . that would be an insult to the intelligence of chimps.
I usually use my avatar to demonstrate transitional fossils. Its a 22000 year old homo sapiens skull yet it shows marked and measurable differences to a modern homo sapiens skull.
Of course, the creationist will mock, make up excuses based on ignorance then totally ignore the difference but that is not my problem.
Of course, the creationist will mock, make up excuses based on ignorance then totally ignore the difference but that is not my problem.
New discovery on the evolution of the beak in birds:
From: Scientists make new discovery about bird evolution | Stock Daily Dish
Scientists make new discovery about bird evolution
Posted by SDD Contributor on December 15, 2019 at 8:50 am
Credit: CC0 Public Domain
In a new paper published in National Science Review, a team of scientists from the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology, the Shandong Tianyu Museum of Nature, and the Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology (all in China) described the most exceptionally preserved fossil bird discovered to date.
The new specimen from the rich Early Cretaceous Jehol Biota (approximately 131 to 120 million years old) is referred to as Eoconfuciusornis, the oldest and most primitive member of the Confuciusornithiformes, a group of early characterized by the first occurrence of an avian beak. Its younger relative Confuciusornis is known from thousands of specimens but this is only the second specimen of Eoconfuciusornis found. This species comes only from the 130.7 Ma Huajiying Formation deposits in Hebei, which preserves the second oldest known fossil birds. Birds from this layer are very rare.
This new specimen of Eoconfuciusornis, housed in the Shandong Tianyu Museum of Nature, in Eastern China, is a female. The ovary reveals developing yolks that vary in size, similar to living birds. This suggests that confuciusornithiforms evolved a period of rapid yolk deposition prior to egg-laying (crocodilians, which are archosaurs like birds, deposit yolks slowly in all eggs for months with no period of rapid yolk formation), which is indicative of complex energetic profiles similar to those observed in birds.
This means Eoconfuciusornis and its kin, like living birds, was able to cope with extremely high metabolic demands during early growth and reproduction (whereas energetic demands in crocodiles are even, lacking complexity). In contrast, other Cretaceous birds including the more advanced group the Enantiornithes appear to have lower metabolic rates and have required less energy similar to crocodilians and non-avian dinosaurs (their developing yolks show little size disparity indicating no strong peak in energy associated with reproduction, and much simpler energetic profiles, limited by simpler physiologies).
Traces of skin indicate that the wing was supplemented by flaps of skin called patagia. Living birds have numerous wing patagia that help the bird to fly. This fossil helps show how bird wings evolved. The propatagium (the flap of skin that connects the shoulder and wrist) and postpatagium (the flap of skin that extends off the back of the hand and ulna) evolved before the alular patagium (the flap of skin connecting the first digit to the rest of the hand), which is absent in Eoconfuciusornis. Even more unique is the preservation of the internal structure of the propatagium which reveal a collagenous network identical to that in living birds. This internal network gives the skin flap its shape, allowing it to generate aerodynamic lift and aid the bird in flight.
The nearly complete plumage preserves remnants of the original plumage pattern, revealing the presence of spots on the wings and the earliest documentation of sexual differences in plumage within birds. This new specimen suggests that female Eoconfuciusornis were smaller than males and lacked tail feathers, similar to many sexually dimorphic living birds and the younger Confuciusornis in which the plumage of the males and females are different from each other. Samples of the feathers viewed under a microscope reveal differences in color characteristics, allowing scientists to reconstruct the plumage. Female Eoconfuciusornis had black spotted wings and gray body with a red throat patch.
Researchers have not found fossils from any other bird from the Jehol period that reveal so many types of soft tissue (feathers, , collagen, ovarian follicles). These remains allow researchers to create the most accurate reconstruction of a primitive early bird (or dinosaur) to date. This information provides better understanding of flight function in the primitive confuciusornithiforms and of the evolution of advanced flight features within birds.
“This new fossil is incredible,” said co-author Dr. Jingmai O‘Connor. “With the amount of information we can glean from this specimen we can really bring this ancient species to life. We can understand how it grew, flew, reproduced, and what it looked like. Fossils like this one from the Jehol Biota continue to revolutionize our understanding of .”
More information: Xiaoting Zheng et al, Exceptional preservation of soft tissue in a new specimen of Eoconfuciusornis and its biological implications, National Science Review (2017).
From: Scientists make new discovery about bird evolution | Stock Daily Dish
Scientists make new discovery about bird evolution
Posted by SDD Contributor on December 15, 2019 at 8:50 am
Credit: CC0 Public Domain
In a new paper published in National Science Review, a team of scientists from the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology, the Shandong Tianyu Museum of Nature, and the Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology (all in China) described the most exceptionally preserved fossil bird discovered to date.
The new specimen from the rich Early Cretaceous Jehol Biota (approximately 131 to 120 million years old) is referred to as Eoconfuciusornis, the oldest and most primitive member of the Confuciusornithiformes, a group of early characterized by the first occurrence of an avian beak. Its younger relative Confuciusornis is known from thousands of specimens but this is only the second specimen of Eoconfuciusornis found. This species comes only from the 130.7 Ma Huajiying Formation deposits in Hebei, which preserves the second oldest known fossil birds. Birds from this layer are very rare.
This new specimen of Eoconfuciusornis, housed in the Shandong Tianyu Museum of Nature, in Eastern China, is a female. The ovary reveals developing yolks that vary in size, similar to living birds. This suggests that confuciusornithiforms evolved a period of rapid yolk deposition prior to egg-laying (crocodilians, which are archosaurs like birds, deposit yolks slowly in all eggs for months with no period of rapid yolk formation), which is indicative of complex energetic profiles similar to those observed in birds.
This means Eoconfuciusornis and its kin, like living birds, was able to cope with extremely high metabolic demands during early growth and reproduction (whereas energetic demands in crocodiles are even, lacking complexity). In contrast, other Cretaceous birds including the more advanced group the Enantiornithes appear to have lower metabolic rates and have required less energy similar to crocodilians and non-avian dinosaurs (their developing yolks show little size disparity indicating no strong peak in energy associated with reproduction, and much simpler energetic profiles, limited by simpler physiologies).
Traces of skin indicate that the wing was supplemented by flaps of skin called patagia. Living birds have numerous wing patagia that help the bird to fly. This fossil helps show how bird wings evolved. The propatagium (the flap of skin that connects the shoulder and wrist) and postpatagium (the flap of skin that extends off the back of the hand and ulna) evolved before the alular patagium (the flap of skin connecting the first digit to the rest of the hand), which is absent in Eoconfuciusornis. Even more unique is the preservation of the internal structure of the propatagium which reveal a collagenous network identical to that in living birds. This internal network gives the skin flap its shape, allowing it to generate aerodynamic lift and aid the bird in flight.
The nearly complete plumage preserves remnants of the original plumage pattern, revealing the presence of spots on the wings and the earliest documentation of sexual differences in plumage within birds. This new specimen suggests that female Eoconfuciusornis were smaller than males and lacked tail feathers, similar to many sexually dimorphic living birds and the younger Confuciusornis in which the plumage of the males and females are different from each other. Samples of the feathers viewed under a microscope reveal differences in color characteristics, allowing scientists to reconstruct the plumage. Female Eoconfuciusornis had black spotted wings and gray body with a red throat patch.
Researchers have not found fossils from any other bird from the Jehol period that reveal so many types of soft tissue (feathers, , collagen, ovarian follicles). These remains allow researchers to create the most accurate reconstruction of a primitive early bird (or dinosaur) to date. This information provides better understanding of flight function in the primitive confuciusornithiforms and of the evolution of advanced flight features within birds.
“This new fossil is incredible,” said co-author Dr. Jingmai O‘Connor. “With the amount of information we can glean from this specimen we can really bring this ancient species to life. We can understand how it grew, flew, reproduced, and what it looked like. Fossils like this one from the Jehol Biota continue to revolutionize our understanding of .”
More information: Xiaoting Zheng et al, Exceptional preservation of soft tissue in a new specimen of Eoconfuciusornis and its biological implications, National Science Review (2017).
This is an amazing video and amazing series on evolution. It reflects that the knowledge of the science of evolution has gone far beyond any of the objections of fundamentalist believers.
It is comprehensive of the knowledge of the advancement in the science of genetics, comparative anatomy and Paleontology is exhaustive. Adding to the fact that new discoveries and research are made almost a weekly basis.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Heyo
Veteran Member
I especially like the educational effect of the question Aron asks at the end of each video. It underlines the morphological changes between clades and why humans belong to all of them in their lineage. No "missing link" that supports an "orchid" hypothesis.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Since Aron doesn't have a schedule for these videos, we don't know when that will be. I'll post a link to an evolution thread when it comes up.