New scientist Gregg Braden

[Audie]

I'm sorry sayak83, I really need to read the book more to answer that and maybe I should read the reasons for the five statements after all. This thread got featured and I can't keep up!

We can keep doing experiments on things like evolution, but we shouldn't not do experiments that can help us feel and behave better.

I dont get why you want to read a book that is
so demonstrably full of nonsense.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I dont get why you want to read a book that is
so demonstrably full of nonsense.

I just want to settle it. I should get to it Friday night and will probably read at least through Ch. 3.

I tried to read it today but as happens to me I can't read any more today. I bought it to see what it is about and I want to know what this author's niche is.

 

[Audie]

I just want to settle it. I should get to it Friday night and will probably read at least through Ch. 3.

I tried to read it today but as happens to me I can't read any more today. I bought it to see what it is about and I want to know what this author's niche is.

The statement about modern man appearing suddenly is
bullcrap. How much do you need to read to settle it?

His niche is woo woo.

There is so much of value to read, I cant see wasting
time on something you know is nonsense.

 

[robocop (actually)]

The statement about modern man appearing suddenly is
bullcrap. How much do you need to read to settle it?

His niche is woo woo.

There is so much of value to read, I cant see wasting
time on something you know is nonsense.

He apparently has a point about fusing DNA. Will get back to you.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

He apparently has a point about fusing DNA. Will get back to you.

What point would that be?

 

[robocop (actually)]

What point would that be?

I still can't read today, but apparently there were just two point mutations that caused a huge difference between two abilities.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I still can't read today, but apparently there were just two point mutations that caused a huge difference between two abilities.

Everyone is born with 50 to 100 point mutations, so I'm not sure why Braden thinks a specific point mutation is impossible. I am also curious why he would describe a point mutation as a "fusion". That sounds much more like a recombination event instead of a point mutation. Of course, recombination events also happen naturally, so I don't see why that would be considered impossible either.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Everyone is born with 50 to 100 point mutations, so I'm not sure why Braden thinks a specific point mutation is impossible. I am also curious why he would describe a point mutation as a "fusion". That sounds much more like a recombination event instead of a point mutation. Of course, recombination events also happen naturally, so I don't see why that would be considered impossible either.

Again, you're getting ahead of me. I just read this once, but apparently two point mutations caused a drastic difference in a skill.

 

[Audie]

Again, you're getting ahead of me. I just read this once, but apparently two point mutations caused a drastic difference in a skill.

May we suggest, next time do your diligence before
posting?

 

[robocop (actually)]

May we suggest, next time do your diligence before
posting?

May I suggest, I didn't know the thread would be featured. But yes, you are right and I will do that in the future.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Everyone is born with 50 to 100 point mutations, so I'm not sure why Braden thinks a specific point mutation is impossible. I am also curious why he would describe a point mutation as a "fusion". That sounds much more like a recombination event instead of a point mutation. Of course, recombination events also happen naturally, so I don't see why that would be considered impossible either.

Perhaps @robocop (actually) needs to learn that there are more ways for DNA to mutate than merely through point mutations. Even though he has been describing one major change, that of fusion, he does not seem to understand what that entails.

This article may help, it is a starting point on mutations and what they do:

Types of mutations

One of the mutations mentioned in that article are insertions. Insertions occur when a string of DNA is added to a genome. One mutation that belongs in the insertion category are gene duplications. Sometimes entire genes are copied and inserted back into the genome. This is a very important mutation that allows for "new information". Creationists will sometimes point at a key gene, one which would result in death to an organism if it was mutated. And ask how can that gene mutate into another one without killing the organisms involved? The answer is often gene duplication. That gene is copied and reentered into the genome. That allows one copy to mutate and the other to continue doing the old job:

Gene duplication - Wikipedia

 

[robocop (actually)]

Perhaps @robocop (actually) needs to learn that there are more ways for DNA to mutate than merely through point mutations. Even though he has been describing one major change, that of fusion, he does not seem to understand what that entails.

Yes I am aware of the ways mutation can occur. There doesn't seem to be much. It's like logic and arithmetic without the arithmetic; limited. IMHO. But then you get into wrapping around proteins.

That gene is copied and reentered into the genome.

I get what you're saying about the duplicate gene mutating. It still has no precursors to get where it wants to go. But yes that would be a better way to handle things that some creationists seem to omit.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Perhaps @robocop (actually) needs to learn that there are more ways for DNA to mutate than merely through point mutations. Even though he has been describing one major change, that of fusion, he does not seem to understand what that entails.

This article may help, it is a starting point on mutations and what they do:

Types of mutations

One of the mutations mentioned in that article are insertions. Insertions occur when a string of DNA is added to a genome. One mutation that belongs in the insertion category are gene duplications. Sometimes entire genes are copied and inserted back into the genome. This is a very important mutation that allows for "new information". Creationists will sometimes point at a key gene, one which would result in death to an organism if it was mutated. And ask how can that gene mutate into another one without killing the organisms involved? The answer is often gene duplication. That gene is copied and reentered into the genome. That allows one copy to mutate and the other to continue doing the old job:

Gene duplication - Wikipedia

He could be talking about the chromosomal fusion that gave rise to human chromosome 2 (called 2a and 2b in the chimp genome). However, chromosomal fusions are entirely natural, so I am again scratching my head as to why Braden would think that it requires a miracle. There are even humans walking around now with one fewer chromosome pair because another fusion has occurred in their genomes, and they aren't any different or smarter than other humans.

The 44 Chromosome Man | Understanding Genetics

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Yes I am aware of the ways mutation can occur. There doesn't seem to be much. It's like logic and arithmetic without the arithmetic; limited. IMHO.

How are the differences between humans and other apes beyond those limits? How did you determine this?

I get what you're saying about the duplicate gene mutating. It still has no precursors to get where it wants to go. But yes that would be a better way to handle things that some creationists seem to omit.

Which genes in humans had no precursors?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes I am aware of the ways mutation can occur. There doesn't seem to be much. It's like logic and arithmetic without the arithmetic; limited. IMHO. But then you get into wrapping around proteins.



I get what you're saying about the duplicate gene mutating. It still has no precursors to get where it wants to go. But yes that would be a better way to handle things that some creationists seem to omit.

Your second statement refutes the first. As pointed out you yourself have on the order of 50 to 100 point mutations alone from the DNA that your parents gave you. How is an average of 75 mutations per person "not much"? You are also forgetting that populations evolve, not individuals. That means one has the mutations of an entire population to work with when it comes to evolution. With a small population of a one million that would be roughly 75 million mutations per generation. If a positive mutation was a one out of a million chance (and from my understanding the odds are a lot higher than that) one would still have 75 positive mutations per generation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He could be talking about the chromosomal fusion that gave rise to human chromosome 2 (called 2a and 2b in the chimp genome). However, chromosomal fusions are entirely natural, so I am again scratching my head as to why Braden would think that it requires a miracle. There are even humans walking around now with one fewer chromosome pair because another fusion has occurred in their genomes, and they aren't any different or smarter than other humans.

The 44 Chromosome Man | Understanding Genetics

I know, and the horse/zebra difference in chromosomes completely blow's Braden out of the water.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Well, physiologically speaking my brain is mush. I have an IQ of 134 and a Master's in Math, but all I'll be able to do today is try to pre-answer those two response (I can't read it today).

If you think of my ability to not read sometimes as a mutation, it's actually quite nice sometimes because it gives me time to enjoy myself.

 

[robocop (actually)]

How are the differences between humans and other apes beyond those limits? How did you determine this?

I'm just saying in general the way that mutations can occur do not seem enough to transfigure cells into greater cells. I talk a little about how they wrap around proteins in my books and there may be something there however.

Which genes in humans had no precursors?

Well, the author is saying there are specific species of human/ape/whatever that do not have go-betweens. If I said that myself I didn't mean to because I haven't checked out how many go-betweens there should be before I say how many there aren't.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Your second statement refutes the first. As pointed out you yourself have on the order of 50 to 100 point mutations alone from the DNA that your parents gave you. How is an average of 75 mutations per person "not much"? You are also forgetting that populations evolve, not individuals. That means one has the mutations of an entire population to work with when it comes to evolution. With a small population of a one million that would be roughly 75 million mutations per generation. If a positive mutation was a one out of a million chance (and from my understanding the odds are a lot higher than that) one would still have 75 positive mutations per generation.

Yes I understand that entirely, and to be honest I was caught off guard by the fact that I forgot that a gene could be duplicated and then transfigure into something better without worrying about omitting life-sustaining function. Again, I will have to see what the author has to say about this before I can say anything.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I'm sorry I don't mean to insult people by saying my brain is physiologically mush; but it is below average and I'll just leave it at that. (my IQ is grand)