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New World Translation: yea, or nay?

P

Protester

Active Member
Pegg said:
what has that line of questioning to brother franz got to do with the case, namely douglas Walshes refusal to do military service?
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I thought he was originally asking if the NWT I would point out that it has been looked at closely by Bible scholars, such as the treatment of ...John 1:1, which has been found lacking by many Bible scholars.

Is this trial the [SIZE=+1] Scottish Court Sessions in November, 1954?
[/SIZE]
If it isn't what does being a conscientious objector have to do with it?

The only information I see about this is, Worlds Most Dangerous Book

which is an interesting article, I'll let the Jehovah Witnesses pick it apart, that could be interesting.

What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military? or Was Jesus a Pacifist? has little to do with Bible translation, and if even the topic was brought up in a trial, they are still different topics!
 
vnct

vnct

Member
Gaura Priya said:
As much as I love the American Standard Version, which uses both beautiful archaic English and the name 'Jehovah,' I am disappointed that it's out of print and no one seems to have it in stock anymore... *grumble grumble*

So perhaps the New World Translation would be a good substitute? Despite some peculiarities, the only thing that is disappointing about the translation is that it is so undeniably jarring to the ear, and the capitalisations of YOU to indicate second-person plural is unnecessary for any anglophone, unless ey were a Bible scholar.
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right now, i sit weekly with a jehovah's witness. the new world translation commonly replaces the word 'evil' with the word 'bad'. i have a problem with that. it's like it's written for 5 year olds. what's with that?
 
M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
yourgraceisenough said:
the NWT has many mistranslations most of which are around the deity of Jesus as the JW's do not accept it...
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Yes, sure.
Did you know that they even change words from one edition to another for the same reason?
From one of my previous posts:

Words changing from edition to the next one to cancel any reference to the divinity of Christ (like Heb 1:6, which changed from "worship" in 1961 and 1970 to "do obeisance" in later and current editions).

Here:
(Hebrews 1:6 [NIV]) And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

(Hebrews 1:6 [NWT,1961]) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."

(Hebrews 1:6 [NWT,1984]) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

It's worth mentioning that the same Greek word (προσκυνέω) is translated in the NWT "worshiped" in Matthew 4:10 and Revelation 19:10 and 22:8, but only here was it changed to "do obeisance".
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Mark2020 said:
Yes, sure.
Did you know that they even change words from one edition to another for the same reason?
From one of my previous posts:

Words changing from edition to the next one to cancel any reference to the divinity of Christ (like Heb 1:6, which changed from "worship" in 1961 and 1970 to "do obeisance" in later and current editions).

Here:
(Hebrews 1:6 [NIV]) And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

(Hebrews 1:6 [NWT,1961]) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."

(Hebrews 1:6 [NWT,1984]) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

It's worth mentioning that the same Greek word (προσκυνέω) is translated in the NWT "worshiped" in Matthew 4:10 and Revelation 19:10 and 22:8, but only here was it changed to "do obeisance".
Click to expand...

and with good reason. As the original languages become more understood, the meaning of the words become clearer and for that reason we keep our bible up to date with the work of linguists and how the original languages are understood.

You know that ancient hebrew has been a misunderstood language for a very long time. It has only been in the past few decades that the work of linguists and archeologists have learned more and more about the language. With the findings of such artifacts as the dead sea scroll for instance, the ancient hebrew language is much more well understood today then it was 50 years ago.

Obeisance in the hebrew scriptures is the act of bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission. the Hebrew word is hish‧ta‧chawah′ and the Greek is pro‧sky‧ne′o (prostrate is derived from this word)

An example is found in Gen 18:2 '...When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth (hish‧ta‧chawah′)'

In the NT, a form of the word pro‧sky‧ne′o is used at Matt 2:11 where the action of bowing down was made by the 3 astrologers who came to give gifts to the baby Jesus.
In Hebrews 1:6, the same greek word is used 'pro‧sky‧ne‧sa′to‧san' in regards to the angels. So they are bowing before Jesus, but the meaning of the original word does not mean an act of worship. To bow before a person of high rank...its a sign of submission and respect.

So the NWT is all about translating the literal meaning of the words as closely as possible. That is why they changed 'worship' to 'obeisance'
 
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Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Protester said:
I thought he was originally asking if the NWT I would point out that it has been looked at closely by Bible scholars, such as the treatment of ...John 1:1, which has been found lacking by many Bible scholars.

Is this trial the [SIZE=+1] Scottish Court Sessions in November, 1954?
[/SIZE]
If it isn't what does being a conscientious objector have to do with it?

The only information I see about this is, Worlds Most Dangerous Book

which is an interesting article, I'll let the Jehovah Witnesses pick it apart, that could be interesting.

What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military? or Was Jesus a Pacifist? has little to do with Bible translation, and if even the topic was brought up in a trial, they are still different topics!
Click to expand...

the court case was about military service. The clergy got an exemption because of being ministers of a religion, but our brothers were refused for the same exemption and the argument was the they were NOT 'ministers of religion' therefore not exempt.
 
M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Pegg said:
and with good reason. ...
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I don't think you are fooling anyone with these words.
I think the reason is clear for all.
We are talking here about people who couldn't translate a single verse into English, remember?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2625625-post84.html

The meaning of the word προσκυνέω was known in 1950 and 1961 as in 1984, even to the translators of the NWT since they used it then. Since the 1950 edition, both "worship" and " do obeisance" were used for προσκυνέω. But they only switched one for the other in Hebrews 1:6 in the 1984 edition. How innocent! Obviously such a switch is doctrine-based.

I think so far I've given a lot of examples about how corrupt this translation is. I hope you do some better research on them, instead of copying stuff from around the web. And I hope you convince yourself before trying to convince others. Remember what you said about the Coptic translation? The Coptic verb used is ⲟⲩⲱϣⲧ, which means "worship" (also Horner rendered it so, remember him?)


(Matthew 13:15-17 [KJV]) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Mark2020 said:
I don't think you are fooling anyone with these words.
I think the reason is clear for all.
We are talking here about people who couldn't translate a single verse into English, remember?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2625625-post84.html

The meaning of the word προσκυνέω was known in 1950 and 1961 as in 1984, even to the translators of the NWT since they used it then. Since the 1950 edition, both "worship" and " do obeisance" were used for προσκυνέω. But they only switched one for the other in Hebrews 1:6 in the 1984 edition. How innocent! Obviously such a switch is doctrine-based.

I think so far I've given a lot of examples about how corrupt this translation is. I hope you do some better research on them, instead of copying stuff from around the web. And I hope you convince yourself before trying to convince others. Remember what you said about the Coptic translation? The Coptic verb used is ⲟⲩⲱϣⲧ, which means "worship" (also Horner rendered it so, remember him?)


(Matthew 13:15-17 [KJV]) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Click to expand...

the angles in the Hebrew scriptures worshiped God alone. Even Jesus said that it is Jehovah alone who is to be worshiped at Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’

Do you really believe that Jesus changed his stance on who we must worship? Satan the devil wants to draw people away from worshiping Jehovah. He tried it on Jesus but Jesus knew better....he was not going to give his worship to anyone but Jehovah God.
The NWT upholds Jehovah God as the supreme ruler while other translators have muddied the waters on Jesus identity and completely hidden the identity of God Almighty. Jehovah is the God we worship and for that reason our scriptures reflect the difference between the worship given to God Jehovah, and the obedience we render to Jesus.

In the immortal words of the prophet Micah:
4:5 For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever
 
yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
Pegg said:
the angles in the Hebrew scriptures worshiped God alone. Even Jesus said that it is Jehovah alone who is to be worshiped at Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’

Do you really believe that Jesus changed his stance on who we must worship? Satan the devil wants to draw people away from worshiping Jehovah. He tried it on Jesus but Jesus knew better....he was not going to give his worship to anyone but Jehovah God.
The NWT upholds Jehovah God as the supreme ruler while other translators have muddied the waters on Jesus identity and completely hidden the identity of God Almighty. Jehovah is the God we worship and for that reason our scriptures reflect the difference between the worship given to God Jehovah, and the obedience we render to Jesus.

In the immortal words of the prophet Micah:
4:5 For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever
Click to expand...

very interesting....why would the bible say Jesus is the only way to the father..?
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
yourgraceisenough said:
very interesting....why would the bible say Jesus is the only way to the father..?
Click to expand...

because he is the Messiah, the one God chose to give his soul in exchange for many, the one through whom we can approach God, the one through whom we can have a relationship with God...he is our mediator

1timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all
 
M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Pegg said:
the angles in the Hebrew scriptures worshiped God alone. Even Jesus said that it is Jehovah alone who is to be worshiped at Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’
...
Click to expand...
This still doesn't answer anything from my last post...

Anyway, for the verse that you quoted, it doesn't mean that Jesus told satan that He shouldn't be worshiped, or that He isn't God. The opposite is correct.

Check this:
(Mark 10:17-18 [NIV])
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

It certainly doesn't mean that Jesus isn't good. I think you should know what it means.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
yourgraceisenough said:
which of course is done because of JW doctrine, when Jesus is just a good man...
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we view him as much more then just a good man

He was a powerful spirit in heaven before he was born into human life. He was Gods firstborn of all creation, he was the angel who led the Isrealites through the wilderness, he was the angel who served as a mouth for God in the same way Aaron served as a mouth for Moses.
 
yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
Pegg said:
because he is the Messiah, the one God chose to give his soul in exchange for many, the one through whom we can approach God, the one through whom we can have a relationship with God...he is our mediator

1timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all
Click to expand...

but if Jesus was justa good man he was also a sinner, so how could the blood of a sinner attone for more sinners...?
 
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