New York Times endorses Harris as ‘the only choice’ for president

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Government is the use of force. It is the use of violence or the threat of violence. That is what government is.

Don't ever forget that.

I know that, I am for limited government because of that, but how is it the same as pointing a gun at a women's head to have a child? Government forces us to do many things by force, like pay taxes, inject chemicals in our bodies etc. So why is it different with abortion?

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is where we disagree. I bet after a long discussion back and forth we will still not agree.

The problem is that you want to affect what other people do. That puts the burden of proof upon you. We know that the pregnant woman is a person. How are you going to prove that a fetus is, that a embryo is, that a blastosphere is. Or worse yet that a fertilized egg is a person. The reason that anti abortion people are at times against IVF is that more eggs than are needed are fertilized and some are going to be thrown away.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The problem is that you want to affect what other people do. That puts the burden of proof upon you. We know that the pregnant woman is a person. How are you going to prove that a fetus is, that a embryo is, that a blastosphere is. Or worse yet that a fertilized egg is a person. The reason that anti abortion people are at times against IVF is that more eggs than are needed are fertilized and some are going to be thrown away.

I am not against IVF. You don't have to prove it is a person. You have to prove it has a reasonable chance to become a person. You have the same problem. You cannot define when it is a person either. If you are advocating for killing the life no matter how you define it, shouldn't you have to prove it is not a person? So when does a fetus become a person?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not against IVF. You don't have to prove it is a person. You have to prove it has a reasonable chance to become a person. You have the same problem. You cannot define when it is a person either. If you are advocating for killing the life no matter how you define it, shouldn't you have to prove it is not a person? So when does a fetus become a person?

I never said that you opposed IVF. You appear to get easily distracted. Perhaps that is why you can never support your posts rationally.

And yes, if you want to affect the behavior of others you take on a burden of proof. Running away from that is just you admitting that you are wrong. Your claims might be believable if you were a vegetarian, but I doubt if you are.

 

[Revoltingest]

I totally answered it and here is my answer again. Sorry if it's not detailed enough for you:

I already said I would not personally choose to have an abortion in the case of rape or incest but since over 98 percent of abortions would be forbidden, I'm OK with that.

Non-answer.

 

[Revoltingest]

I totally answered it and here is my answer again. Sorry if it's not detailed enough for you:

I already said I would not personally choose to have an abortion in the case of rape or incest but since over 98 percent of abortions would be forbidden, I'm OK with that.

What question do you think you were answering?

 

[Copernicus]

The problem is that you want to affect what other people do. That puts the burden of proof upon you. We know that the pregnant woman is a person. How are you going to prove that a fetus is, that a embryo is, that a blastosphere is. Or worse yet that a fertilized egg is a person. The reason that anti abortion people are at times against IVF is that more eggs than are needed are fertilized and some are going to be thrown away.

I am not against IVF. You don't have to prove it is a person. You have to prove it has a reasonable chance to become a person. You have the same problem. You cannot define when it is a person either. If you are advocating for killing the life no matter how you define it, shouldn't you have to prove it is not a person? So when does a fetus become a person?

Here is what appears to be the logic of your position:

1. There is an undefined entity called a "person".
2. If a woman becomes impregnated with this undefined entity, and the entity is a potentially viable one, then she cannot terminate the pregnancy under any circumstances.
3. If she can prove that the undefined entity is not a potentially viable "person", then she can terminate the pregnancy.

No exclusions for rape, incest, or threat to the woman's health, life, or ability to care for the undefined entity. And this should be a law enforced by the government despite the woman's own wishes, fears, or desires--at least until she can come up with a definition of "person" that you and/or the government finds acceptable and then prove that it is a nonviable person.

Does that accurately explain what your position is? If not, I hope you can explain where I misunderstood what you appear to advocate.

 

[fantome profane]

I know that, I am for limited government because of that, but how is it the same as pointing a gun at a women's head to have a child? Government forces us to do many things by force, like pay taxes, inject chemicals in our bodies etc. So why is it different with abortion?

I don't believe the Government of the U.S. or any western nation is forcing us to inject chemicals into our bodies. But we can skip the debate as to whether or not it is happening by agreeing that it should not happen.

The Government does force you to pay taxes, obey the speed limit and other laws. But those laws are not a violation of bodily autonomy. If they are I am against them

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't believe in that b******* about things getting more expensive for no other reason that cheaper labor makes wages plummet and so things get more expensive because you're not being paid enough.

If it was effective like you say then why the hell are prices so freaking high now and still climbing? No we are not dependent on illegals. We are in fact suffering from it.

The sooner illegals are bussed out of this country, the better it will be for the citizens who actually belong here.

Prices are high in just about all countries, including those with almost no illegals and strict immigration laws.

Covid, wars everywhere, Russia weaponizing energy and grain supplies....

Do you live under a rock?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Prices are high in just about all countries, including those with almost no illegals and strict immigration laws.

Covid, wars everywhere, Russia weaponizing energy and grain supplies....

Do you live under a rock?

I certainly don't live with your fantasyland.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To me, it is a child, made in the image and likeness of God. That is why there is a huge disconnect between us after just your first two sentences.

Ow, so your argument / objection is fundamentally based in your religious beliefs.

That is your right, off course. And it might probably be a good reason for why you wouldn't want to be involved in abortions.
But I don't think I need to remind you that you live in a secular society, where your religious beliefs have (or should have) no value in political discourse and legislation.

I know I cannot change your view on this and there is certainly no way you can change mine. So?

So, nothing.

It's totally fine.
But your religious argument is fundamentally unconstitutional if it is used to motivate legislation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I certainly don't live with your fantasyland.

Uhu. So prices in Europe are high, because Haiti immigrants are eating pets in Springfield. Got it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am concerned with the bodies of the unborn. I know you are not.

I'm concerned with the life, liberty and body of the person who is actually born, who is a fully developed human being, who has social attachments and responsibilities, people to care for and people who care for them and love them, who have other children or living family members to take care of, who have hopes and dreams, etc. etc. I.e. An actual living person.

That person's actual life that they are living is more important to me than an embryo or fetus that may or may not continue developing. Yep. One is a fully developed human being. And one is a small clump of cells. Your beliefs have those two things on par with each other - a fully grown and developed adult human is equal to a few cells in a petri dish. I find that absurd and demeaning to women. That you think my life is worth so little that a clump of cells is supposed to supersede it. And that others should be able to determine that on my behalf. Nah.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am not against IVF. You don't have to prove it is a person. You have to prove it has a reasonable chance to become a person. You have the same problem. You cannot define when it is a person either. If you are advocating for killing the life no matter how you define it, shouldn't you have to prove it is not a person?

You should be against IVF, if you follow your own line of thinking to it's logical conclusion.
Every single embryo is a little person, in your view, equal to a born and grown adult human being.

So when does a fetus become a person?

It's a person when it's viable and/or born.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I certainly don't live with your fantasyland.

What he described there was reality.
A reality that I've already pointed out to you before.

Prices are high all over. Inflation is high all over.
Including in Canada, where we don't have (supposedly) millions of illegal immigrants.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What he described there was reality.
A reality that I've already pointed out to you before.

Prices are high all over. Inflation is high all over.
Including in Canada, where we don't have (supposedly) millions of illegal immigrants.

No, really? How can that be? Aren't all social ills caused by illegal immigrants?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, really? How can that be? Aren't all social ills caused by illegal immigrants?

Of course! Sorry, what was I thinking??

 

[Twilight Hue]

What he described there was reality.
A reality that I've already pointed out to you before.

Prices are high all over. Inflation is high all over.
Including in Canada, where we don't have (supposedly) millions of illegal immigrants.

Well Canada has turned into a leftest leaning country like so many others. I'm sure all the high prices are greatly appreciated by the citizenry.

 

[Kathryn]

What question do you think you were answering?

The one you asked me specifically.

 

[Kathryn]

Non-answer.

Nope, not a non answer.