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Newton - The Last Of The Magicians

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
t´s the simple weigth of the gaseous elements in the atmosphere which gives us the sense of weight because of a downwards pressure.

How is there weight without gravity? Weight is the force of gravity acting on a mass.

I dunno, I've tried, but you're simply not addressing the main point that gravity works and the theories (GR in particular) have successfully predicted phenomena that had never been seen or measured before.

You have absolutely nothing until you can offer an explanation for that.

General relativity may well be an approximation, just Newton's theory was an approximation to GR. The explanation may even change (as it did Newton to GR) but denying that gravity exists is more absurd that thinking the earth is flat.

NO-ONE is able to explain what "gravity" is and how it works.

This is simply untrue (and I'm not going to just repeat the explanations endlessly).
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Since posting #192 (copied above), I've come to see that it is not your evolutionary model of the universe and gravity. You are just one believer among many of this EU stuff.
You´ve come to know nothing of this kind at all. After a long time (40 years) studying Comparative Mythology, I stumbled over the mythological issues in the ThunderboltsProject and then I compared the topics of Plasma Cosmology and Electric Universe with my mytological perceptions and do you know what?

It all fits very well together when you interpret the ancient myths of creation in the terms of PC and EU. You know: The Fiery Light = electromagnetic nuclear forces in the Milky Way center. (Its really observed as strong gamma rays beaming out of the Milky Way center, you know)

But of course you just ignore these findings, being an expert on both Ancient Myths and now also the Electric Universe.

Conclusion: The Electric Universe is no ones cosmological model. It resembles the Universal forces of creation, just as the ancient Stories of Creation is no ones model, but a collective model for all humans.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Interesting that even proponents of the EU don't actually deny gravity:

The Electric Universe theory argues that electricity plays a significant and more important role in the Universe, than is generally accepted (see also “Electricity throughout the Universe“). The theory does not dismiss gravity.

[my emphasis] Electric Universe theory
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
First GR does not say satellites are effected by "gravity waves". It's time dillation from special and general relativity.
It doesn´t matter what they say. Both claims are pure specualtions prodused to fit a theory which isn´t fully understood or certainly not proven by natural means or logics.
Looking at electric universe explanations of GPS corrections all I see are crank theories.
Of course you do. Everything which is ouside your own squared box is crank, right? Well, it takes one to know one :)
It's hilarious that you think "dust" accounts for weak, strong and micro lensing. You think dust causes multiple images of a single galaxy to appear a few arcsecond apart, just as relativity predicts?
To me it´s hilarious that modern cosmological scientists have the need to explain ordinary light refraction phenomena as a very special gravity effect. Get real in the real natural world, please.
Time dillation has been observed in particle accelerators to a much greater degree than ever before.
Without being an expert, I´ll just say you´re confusing "time" with different stages of a particle.

All your references to the "Mercury problem" STILL doesn´t explain the causes of the planetary motions at all.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Disproved?
You think modern physics is wrong but you think a pop-sci news story from ABC is definitely correct and means something is disproven?
Even though in the story they express doubt? Huh.

"Not everyone is convinced the NEC scientists did what they claim.

Aephraim Steinberg, a physicist at the University of Toronto, said the light particles coming out of the cesium chamber may not have been the same ones that entered, so he questions whether the speed of light was broken."
Of course the physisists can be in doubts. They don´t even have a clue of what ligth is in this case of doubt, confusing ligth to be particles instead of waves.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
confusing ligth to be particles instead of waves.

The only confusion is yours
Wave–particle duality - Wikipedia

"It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."
Albert Einstein
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
confusing ligth to be particles instead of waves.
The only confusion is yours
Wave–particle duality - Wikipedia

"It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."
Albert Einstein
According to Einstein´s explanation here, I argued for the wave model of light which he accepts as an explanation, right?

So it is NOT me who are confused, is it? It´s more likely you who don´t understand his explanation. Or my argument above for that matter.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Native said:
confusing ligth to be particles instead of waves.

According to Einstein´s explanation here, I argued for the wave model of light which he accepts as an explanation, right?

So it is NOT me who are confused, is it? It´s more likely you who don´t understand his explanation. Or my argument above for that matter.


What did you not understand about

"separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."

You can misrepresent all you want, it doesn't make you right


Your argument is irrelevant, unless of course you have a phd or two in particle physics and/or quantum mechanics.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Your argument is irrelevant, unless of course you have a phd or two in particle physics and/or quantum mechanics.
Oh it´s nice to be confirmed in ones preconceptions. I´ve always thought of you as a true and unreflected proponent of patronizing dogmatism :)

What did you not understand about
"separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."
You can misrepresent all you want, it doesn't make you right
It´s NOT my fault that good old Einstein and others did´nt understood this issue, is it?
Light is just the energetic wave discharge of the atomic electrical charge in particles.

Here you have the correct definition and the logical explanation of the "duality of light" problem.

But of course, since I have no phd or other fancy howsky snowsky speculative educations, you of course don´t believe this natural logics at all do you?
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
How is there weight without gravity? Weight is the force of gravity acting on a mass.

I dunno, I've tried, but you're simply not addressing the main point that gravity works and the theories (GR in particular) have successfully predicted phenomena that had never been seen or measured before.

You have absolutely nothing until you can offer an explanation for that.

General relativity may well be an approximation, just Newton's theory was an approximation to GR. The explanation may even change (as it did Newton to GR) but denying that gravity exists is more absurd that thinking the earth is flat.

This is simply untrue (and I'm not going to just repeat the explanations endlessly).

An interesting example, where Newtonian Gravity diverges from Einstein's GR, is to consider a large mass body like the sun. In GR, space-time changes as we go from the surface to the core of the sun. In the core, space-time is most contract; space contracts and time slows. The center of the black hole has time running real slow and space is contacted to a near point.

In terms of energy and matter, and Newtonian gravity, the core of the sun is where the physical and measured distances between matter, contracts the most, due to the pressure caused by gravity. This direction of Newtonian distance parallels the direction of space in GR. However, the vibrational frequencies of matter and energy in the core of the sun are the fastest, meaning that the time parameter, used to express matter and energy speeds up, opposite to the time reference direction of GR; time slows in GR.

In other words, in the core of the sun, where fusion occurs, we get the most energetic matter and energy; gamma rays, where wavelength is most contracted and frequency is fastest; clock ticks the fastest, even though GR says that reference time should be getting slower as we approach the core. Distance goes in the same direction, for both, but time goes in the opposite direction for each.

Newtonian gravity is more consistent with the phase behavior of matter and energy under gravitational pressure. These phase diagrams of matter-energy are absolute; laws of physics are the same in all references. While GR is more consistent with reference affects, that are not absolute, but relative to observer. This divergence in time can lead to misunderstanding, in terms of what is observed by a relative reference GR, versus what is real and tangible for matter.

GR is more about sitting at a distance observing and inferring from the changes in the light we see. Newtonian is about getting in the trenches, close and personal and using more than just sight. We also need to touch. Distant observation, using only sight; energy inferences, does not have to touch hard reality, but infers everything based only on sight. This can lead to energy balance problems and mythology.

To put it another way, say we knew nothing about the tangible properties of matter, as a function of pressure. For the sake of argument, say Newtonian was not yet invented. Instead GR comes first, in terms of science, many decades before Newtonian thinking. Using only GR, we would not predict the proper core properties of the sun, due to the divergence of time. We know this to be true, only because Newtonian came first, This was already worked out in tangible experiments even before GR was mainstream. Since GR is now assumed to an updated version of Newtonian, so it is retired, the up and close touch of Newtonian is not being used, as we go further and further into space, since Newtonian is assumed an obsolete GR. Nobody seems to notice the divergence in time that has been lost.

This relative reference error is propagated into universe theory, due to the GR assumptions of relative reference, that ignores the divergence of time inherent in gravity and tangible things; matter. The net affect is relative reference physics violates energy conservation to create mythology that uses misappropriates energy.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Interesting that even proponents of the EU don't actually deny gravity:

The Electric Universe theory argues that electricity plays a significant and more important role in the Universe, than is generally accepted (see also “Electricity throughout the Universe“). The theory does not dismiss gravity.
Wishfull thinking indeed :)

Although the Electric Universe have, to my knowledge, no specific explanation of "gravity on and around the Earth", they certainly have their specific ideas when it comes to the formation of our Solar System and galaxies.

Just watch this video - Cosmic Magnetic Fields – The Ultimate Challenge to Gravity-Centric Cosmology.

 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
The net affect is relative reference physics violates energy conservation to create mythology that uses misappropriates energy.
I indeed love your elaborated explanations - and my head is still bussing :)

I though don´t like your use of the mythology term in this sentense. Mythology, as in the Mythological Creation Stories, is to me not myths in the sense you mean here.

Instead I would have said: "Loose Speculations"
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Oh it´s nice to be confirmed in ones preconceptions. I´ve always thought of you as a true and unreflected proponent of patronizing dogmatism :)


It´s NOT my fault that good old Einstein and others did´nt understood this issue, is it?
Light is just the energetic wave discarge of the atoms in particles.

Here you have the correct definition and the logical explanation of the "duality of light" problem.

But of course, since I have no phd or other fancy howsky snowsky speculative educations, you of course don´t believe this natural logics at all do you?

So phd's who study particle physics are wrong and a guy who cannot provide citation for his claims s right. Gotya?

:facepalm:
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
So phd's who study particle physics are wrong and a guy who cannot provide citation for his claims s right. Gotya?
Contrary to my intentions, I´ve very politely now spend some time on you and your personal insults.

So go walk your dog :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Contrary to my intentions, I´ve very politely now spend some time on you and your personal insults.

So go walk your dog :)

What personal insults? Showing you where you are wrong? You have a weird idea of personal insults while issuing personal insults and have no idea of what you are doing.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
What personal insults?
It´s an obvious insult to indicate that a person can´t study cosmological issues without having an University education. It´s also an insult not to accept alternative answers to matters which just is dealing with unproven or problematic cosmological consensus.

I´ve reported you for these personal insults and for your obvious lack of personal respect and I`ll keep on doing this from now on.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It´s an obvious insult to indicate that a person can´t study cosmological issues without having an University education. It´s also an insult not to accept alternative answers to matters which just is dealing with unproven or problematic cosmological consensus.

I´ve reported you for these personal insults and for your obvious lack of personal respect and I`ll keep on doing this from now on.

So no personal insults, just embarrassment and bravado because you cannot justify your claims.

You do not have alternative answers, you have guesses based on ignorance of the subject(s) you claim to know more about than those who study those subjects.

May i suggest you put me on ignore if you dont like your nonsense being analysed and criticised.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
An interesting example, where Newtonian Gravity diverges from Einstein's GR, is to consider a large mass body like the sun. In GR, space-time changes as we go from the surface to the core of the sun. In the core, space-time is most contract; space contracts and time slows. The center of the black hole has time running real slow and space is contacted to a near point.

In terms of energy and matter, and Newtonian gravity, the core of the sun is where the physical and measured distances between matter, contracts the most, due to the pressure caused by gravity. This direction of Newtonian distance parallels the direction of space in GR. However, the vibrational frequencies of matter and energy in the core of the sun are the fastest, meaning that the time parameter, used to express matter and energy speeds up, opposite to the time reference direction of GR; time slows in GR.

In other words, in the core of the sun, where fusion occurs, we get the most energetic matter and energy; gamma rays, where wavelength is most contracted and frequency is fastest; clock ticks the fastest, even though GR says that reference time should be getting slower as we approach the core. Distance goes in the same direction, for both, but time goes in the opposite direction for each.

Newtonian gravity is more consistent with the phase behavior of matter and energy under gravitational pressure. These phase diagrams of matter-energy are absolute; laws of physics are the same in all references. While GR is more consistent with reference affects, that are not absolute, but relative to observer. This divergence in time can lead to misunderstanding, in terms of what is observed by a relative reference GR, versus what is real and tangible for matter.

GR is more about sitting at a distance observing and inferring from the changes in the light we see. Newtonian is about getting in the trenches, close and personal and using more than just sight. We also need to touch. Distant observation, using only sight; energy inferences, does not have to touch hard reality, but infers everything based only on sight. This can lead to energy balance problems and mythology.

To put it another way, say we knew nothing about the tangible properties of matter, as a function of pressure. For the sake of argument, say Newtonian was not yet invented. Instead GR comes first, in terms of science, many decades before Newtonian thinking. Using only GR, we would not predict the proper core properties of the sun, due to the divergence of time. We know this to be true, only because Newtonian came first, This was already worked out in tangible experiments even before GR was mainstream. Since GR is now assumed to an updated version of Newtonian, so it is retired, the up and close touch of Newtonian is not being used, as we go further and further into space, since Newtonian is assumed an obsolete GR. Nobody seems to notice the divergence in time that has been lost.

This relative reference error is propagated into universe theory, due to the GR assumptions of relative reference, that ignores the divergence of time inherent in gravity and tangible things; matter. The net affect is relative reference physics violates energy conservation to create mythology that uses misappropriates energy.

AdmiredEntireCurassow-small.gif
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
May i suggest you put me on ignore . . .
Excellent idea, ChristineM, thank you :)

As for the rest:

How do you know? You are just reffering to texts you have no clue of and just swallows without thinking for yourself.

And when the debaters ignore your annoying replies, you take this as your opponents have no answers.

Well now I´m free for your annoying comments.
 
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