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Newton - The Last Of The Magicians

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Polymath257,
I said:
I´m astonished over your lack of connective skills! The scientists speaks of strong electromagnetic gamma rays in a galactic center and you don´t make the EM and EU connections at all!?

Dear oh dear! "Yes the EM is everywhere i cosmos, but it doesn´t do anything and it is not the issue".

This is just pathetic!

Did I ever say it doesn't do anything? No. What I said is that it does't do *everything*. It simply isn't the only force in the universe.

It is mostly important in high energy situations, like near black holes and in plasmas, like in HII nebulae. It isn't mrelevant for star formation, nor for formation of planets. It isn't relevant for the orbits of planets. It isn't relevant for large scale galactic motion. The gamma rays, while of high energy, are a very, very small aspect of the overall energy of the galaxy. The EM field, while it exists, in very weak, a fact that you consistently ignore.

And still, there is nothing from EU except exaggerated claims and no substance.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Did I ever say it doesn't do anything? No. What I said is that it does't do *everything*. It simply isn't the only force in the universe.
Was this "No. What I said is that it does't do *everything*, a Freudian slip?

Well you certainly do not overestimate the EM facts :)

Everything in the Universe - even yourself - is build up with atoms which have electromagnetic properties of attractive and repulsive motions = the Universe IS based on EM qualities = the Universe IS an EU. So make the connections yourself. You even don´t need any calculations of this philosophical truth.

Your weak "gravity laws" is fundamentally just "working" with the one way attraction, which is why the scientist is forced to invent "dark matter" and cosmic explosions where electromagnetic discharges (EM repulsions) in space naturally takes place.

From the linked article:

"In their paper, the researchers from Australia, New Zealand, the US and Germany argue that the source of the gamma-ray excess is a type of star called a millisecond pulsar".

Once again the "gravi-scientists" confuse an EM phenomenon as an object called a "Millisecond Pulsar".

If scientists were concerned when discovering the "galactic rotation anomaly" and "stars which were in danger of flying away from the galaxy because of the orbital speed velocity", they certainly should be more concerned of cosmic objects which makes a full rotation i milliseconds.

A millisecond star is simply impossible! We are NOT dealing with an object here, but with the EM frequence in a star. It is NOT the physical star which beams out the "lighthouse" impulses, but the EM frequence of this star.
The gamma rays, while of high energy, are a very, very small aspect of the overall energy of the galaxy.
You see? In just one short sentense, you admits a strong EM force in galaxies and at the same time rejects its EM importance. If you´ve had your connective skills intact, you would connect the strong gamma rays beaming out from the galactic holes/poles as the result of a central nuclear formation process in the galaxies.
It isn't mrelevant for star formation, nor for formation of planets. It isn't relevant for the orbits of planets. It isn't relevant for large scale galactic motion. The gamma rays, while of high energy, are a very, very small aspect of the overall energy of the galaxy. The EM field, while it exists, in very weak, a fact that you consistently ignore.
"The EM is everywhere but it doesn´t do very much anywhere". And now you even indirectly claim that the weakest "gravity" in galaxies is stronger than the EM forces.

The gamma rays, while of high energy, are a very, very small aspect of the overall energy of the galaxy.

You see? In just one short sentense, you admit a strong EM force in galaxies and at the same time rejects its EM importance. If you´ve had your connective skills intact, you would connect the strong gamma rays beaming out from the galactic holes/poles as the result of a central formation process in the galaxies.

"The EM is everywhere but it doesn´t do very much anywhere". And now you even indirectly claim that "gravity" in galaxies is stronger than the EM forces.

No wonder that gravi-cosmological scientists have to invent dark matter to count for the stronger forces and motions they de facto ignores on the macrocosmic scales.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Was this "No. What I said is that it does't do *everything*, a Freudian slip?

Well you certainly do not overestimate the EM facts :)

Everything in the Universe - even yourself - is build up with atoms which have electromagnetic properties of attractive and repulsive motions = the Universe IS based on EM qualities = the Universe IS an EU. So make the connections yourself. You even don´t need any calculations of this philosophical truth.

And, oncc again, that EM is common does NOT mean it is the only force out there. And, in fact, we know it isn't.

Your weak "gravity laws" is fundamentally just "working" with the one way attraction, which is why the scientist is forced to invent "dark matter" and cosmic explosions where electromagnetic discharges (EM repulsions) in space naturally takes place.

Then propose a specific model that matches the observations using only EM. Go ahead. The dark matter model works. It makes predictions that can then be tested and those tests actually agree with the model. You don't seem to grasp how difficult that is. Probably because you have never actually had to come up with a predictive model.

"In their paper, the researchers from Australia, New Zealand, the US and Germany argue that the source of the gamma-ray excess is a type of star called a millisecond pulsar".

Once again the "gravi-scientists" confuse an EM phenomenon as an object called a "Millisecond Pulsar".

If scientists were concerned when discovering the "galactic rotation anomaly" and "stars which were in danger of flying away from the galaxy because of the orbital speed velocity", they certainly should be more concerned of cosmic objects which makes a full rotation i milliseconds.

A millisecond star is simply impossible! We are NOT dealing with an object here, but with the EM frequence in a star. It is NOT the physical star which beams out the "lighthouse" impulses, but the EM frequence of this star.

Well, you seem to think they are impossible. Prove it. At this point, all the observations show this is the correct model, from the existence of *star quakes*, to the rate at which the frequency changes over time matching the predictions of GR (yes! gravity!), to the way they act when in a system with another star. If you want to attempt to make another explanation (EM frequencies), you have a LOT of specifics to explain.

You see? In just one short sentense, you admits a strong EM force in galaxies and at the same time rejects its EM importance. If you´ve had your connective skills intact, you would connect the strong gamma rays beaming out from the galactic holes/poles as the result of a central nuclear formation process in the galaxies.

You are right. I accept that there are many energetic EM processes AND that they don't govern the overall motion of the galaxy.

"The EM is everywhere but it doesn´t do very much anywhere". And now you even indirectly claim that the weakest "gravity" in galaxies is stronger than the EM forces.

EM tends to cancel itself out over long distances. It's that polarity thing. Gravity doesn't have that, so adds up over longer distances.

No wonder that gravi-cosmological scientists have to invent dark matter to count for the stronger forces and motions they de facto ignores on the macrocosmic scales.

Once again, if you don't like dark matter, give *specifics* of a model that matches the observations without it. You claim it to be imaginary. Then explain the rotation curves, the gravitational lensing, the details of the CMBR *in detail* using another model.

Good luck.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Was this "No. What I said is that it does't do *everything*, a Freudian slip?
Well you certainly do not overestimate the EM facts :)
Everything in the Universe - even yourself - is build up with atoms which have electromagnetic properties of attractive and repulsive motions = the Universe IS based on EM qualities = the Universe IS an EU. So make the connections yourself. You even don´t need any calculations of this philosophical truth.
And, oncc again, that EM is common does NOT mean it is the only force out there. And, in fact, we know it isn't.
You confuses hypothesis as a heory. In this theory, you hypothezise a lot which you ascribes your theory, included things dark this or that which isn´t found and isn´t there for real.

I said:
Your weak "gravity laws" is fundamentally just "working" with the one way attraction, which is why the scientist is forced to invent "dark matter" and cosmic explosions where electromagnetic discharges (EM repulsions) in space naturally takes place.
Then propose a specific model that matches the observations using only EM. Go ahead. The dark matter model works. It makes predictions that can then be tested and those tests actually agree with the model. You don't seem to grasp how difficult that is. Probably because you have never actually had to come up with a predictive model.
I´ve de facto done nothing ELSE in my topic but philosophically trying to describe an EM model of the Milky Way but it doesn´t seem to sip in.

I said:
A millisecond star is simply impossible! We are NOT dealing with an object here, but with the EM frequence in a star. It is NOT the physical star which beams out the "lighthouse" impulses, but the EM frequence of this star.
Well, you seem to think they are impossible. Prove it.
You just can take ANY average size celestial star or planet an imagine this to rotate in the velocity of a millisecond.

I said:
You see? In just one short sentense, you admits a strong EM force in galaxies and at the same time rejects its EM importance. If you´ve had your connective skills intact, you would connect the strong gamma rays beaming out from the galactic holes/poles as the result of a central nuclear formation process in the galaxies.
You are right. I accept that there are many energetic EM processes AND that they don't govern the overall motion of the galaxy.
I know. In your perspection it is the weakest of all forces which governs the other 3 stronger ones.

Polymath257 said:
It isn't mrelevant for star formation, nor for formation of planets. It isn't relevant for the orbits of planets. It isn't relevant for large scale galactic motion. The gamma rays, while of high energy, are a very, very small aspect of the overall energy of the galaxy. The EM field, while it exists, in very weak, a fact that you consistently ignore.

Who is the ignorant one here?

I said:
"The EM is everywhere but it doesn´t do very much anywhere". And now you even indirectly claim that the weakest "gravity" in galaxies is stronger than the EM forces.
EM tends to cancel itself out over long distances. It's that polarity thing. Gravity doesn't have that, so adds up over longer distances.
Not according to the EM laws of fundamental forces where EM is stated to be infinite, no matter which polarity.

???"Gravity adds up over longer discances??? Elaborate on this please.

I said:
No wonder that gravi-cosmological scientists have to invent dark matter to count for the stronger forces and motions they de facto ignores on the macrocosmic scales.
Once again, if you don't like dark matter, give *specifics* of a model that matches the observations without it. You claim it to be imaginary. Then explain the rotation curves, the gravitational lensing, the details of the CMBR *in detail* using another model.
One cannot like or dislike anything cosmic. Were are not judging feelings here.

1) Celestial rotation curves in cosmos derives from the spinning motion in an electric current which induces perpendicular spinnings, thus providing rotation and orbital motions everywhere in micro- and macrososmos.
2) "Gravitational lensing" is simple light refraction. You can observe the same fata morgana phenomenon in deserts.
3) A serious and genuine EM and EU model doesn´t count on anything frelated to any beginning. The CMBR have always been there, in ancient myths called "The Promordial Waters".
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
"I you study physics one day"!?
You obviously have the conviction that nobody can study physics outside the Universities.

One again, you are incorrect. I didn't study at a university.
But that's neither here nor there, you simply do not have knowledge of modern physics. You have been making mistakes and false assumptions about basic concepts in physics all along.
You need to embark on a long lay-mans study of modern physics so you will understand how well tested the standard model is.

BTW. If I recall correctly: You claimed yourself to be a theoretical
astrophysicist, didn´t you? In which "astrophysical branch" if I may ask?

You recall incorrectly, I said the astrophysicist who wrote the blog that debunks EU is Brian Koberland.
I'm not an astrophysicist.

DM is just an invention in order to patch the gravitational contradiction of the galactic rotation curve observation. After this significant discovery, all kinds of "dark this and that" ghosts showed up everywere and even in the institutions of colliders.

Particle accelerators have not found dark matter. It sounds like even if they did you are ready to reject it. It's very clear that you are not following evidence or anything related to science but are chasing religious fantasies of ancient people having mystical insights. Why not just believe in a savior-god?


Subsequently all talks and discussions of DM is useless and it is an obvious task for Ghost Busters :)

RIght, useless to religious myth people who are close minded to what evidence presents.
Scientists on the other hand are looking to test current ideas and find data that confirms or proves something wrong so we can move to something better.
Science doesn't have mystical prophets who were told by RA the secrets of the universe.
So we'll have to figure things out with science. Oh well.



No I don´t at all. I more than suggest is that EM is not understood on the cosmic scales, mostly because of different scientific EM areas once have their own EM approaches, which lead to the splitting up the general EM force into several fundamental EM-forces.


Wait, what? You've been talking about how much you disagree with all these "schizophrenic" forces that have multiple theories and NOW you're saying you don't understand EM and it requires multiple theories??

Which means Maxwell was wrong. All current theories about EM are wrong then? Even though their predictive power is greater than any other theory made by man.
But now EM is also in need of re-working????
So the one thing EU is based on which is the only thing physicists got right is NOW ALSO WRONG according to you?
So now you need a EU model that mathematically makes predictions and accounts for gravity and now it also has to be re-worked to account for the strong force??

Which makes zero sense if you actually understood Maxwell's work and QED.
It's literally impossible.

This is getting worse and worse for you..

I dont ignore this! I just take the EM force to work anywhere and with different charges and thats it.

Don't just say it? Show me where someone showed how EM can account for the strong force holding protons together.
And why EM would change in the nucleus of an atom?
And why would the charges become attractive? Why?
You can't just use EM to hold them together, that's pushing them apart? Why would it reverse?

You could make the same measurement just by using the refraction of light.


No. What refraction? There is no change in what the light was traveling through? It's just the moon blocked some sunlight so we could see the star. There is no refraction?
The starlight didn't actually go near the moon?

What are you talking about? That's also just one proof of general relativity. We can break this lensing into different types.
There are strong, weak and microlensing.
You cannot get multiple images of a galaxy from refraction?




Native said:
I reject to discuss further with you on this level of mythical ignorance and insulting remarks.

I know, secret messages from space gods is not something I'm looking to discuss either.

[QUOTE="Native, post: 6070952, member: 32289"Still, you´re having no "damn" troubles at all dealing with the human made modern science fictions of DM mythical ghosts in a scientific discussion :)[/QUOTE]

Well if DM was treated like mythology/religion or EU (like they had all the answers and know everything and have supernatural insight) then I would have troubles with it.
But it's treated like science, it's just a theory and now we test the predictions and see how things turn out.
Meanwhile we work on alternate theories that might work, such as:

"argue for various modifications of the standard laws of general relativity, such as modified Newtonian dynamics, tensor–vector–scalar gravity, or entropic gravity. These models attempt to account for all observations without invoking supplemental non-baryonic matter."

Avenues of exploration that you seem to have no idea are even happening because you've been indoctrinated by those EU videos that tell you science is rigid and doesn't consider all possibilities.
It's clear you don't know this because you continue to call DM "fiction" when everyone in science knows it's just a process of sorting out the best evidence over time.

What you are arguing against literally doesn't exist. It's a fiction created by EU propaganda to get potential members excited and onboard.

But you're calling DM "mythical ghosts " as if that's a bad thing but that's literally your source for EU?!

In mythology you think people talked to ghosts or gods or whatever supernatural word you want to use and divined the origins of the universe.
That's your argument? Not mine? So you are the one doing that. So why are you putting it in a negative light if it's your own source?????
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
.

???"Gravity adds up over longer discances??? Elaborate on this please.


Yes. Everything PM has said is true and saying he is not intuitive because he's not looking at gamma rays and concluding that a no-math, no predictions electric universe non-model that goes against the standard model and uses Egyptain gods as a source must be the correct theory is ridiculous.

Gravity adds up at galactic scales


"
Gravity is so weak at the atomic scale that scientists can typically ignore it without incurring significant errors in their calculations.

However, on astronomical scales, gravity does dominate over the other forces. There are two reasons for this: 1) gravity has a long range, and 2) there is no such thing as negative mass. Each force dies off as the two objects experiencing the force become more separated. The rate at which the forces die off is different for each force. The strong and weak nuclear forces are very short ranged, meaning that outside of the tiny nuclei of atoms, these forces quickly drop to zero. The tiny size of the nuclei of atoms is a direct result of the extreme short range of the nuclear forces. Two particles that are nanometers apart are far too distant from each other to exert an appreciable nuclear force on each other. If the nuclear forces are so weak for two particles only nanometers apart, it should be obvious that the nuclear forces are even more negligible on astronomical scales. For instance, the earth and sun are far too distant from each other (billions of meters) for their nuclear forces to reach each other. In contrast to the nuclear forces, both the electromagnetic force and gravity have effectively infinite range* and die off in strength as 1/r2.

If both electromagnetism and gravity have effectively infinite range, why is the earth held in orbit around the sun by gravity and not by the electromagnetic force? The reason is that there is no such thing as negative mass, but there is such thing as negative electric charge. If you place a single positive electric charge near a single negative electric charge, and then measure their combined force on another, distant charge, you find that the negative charge tends to cancel out the positive charge somewhat. Such an object is called an electric dipole. The electromagnetic force caused by an electric dipole dies off as 1/r3 and not 1/r2 because of this canceling effect. Similarly, if you take two positive electric charges and two negative charges and place them close together properly, you have created an electric quadrupole. The electromagnetic force due to an electric quadrupole dies off even more rapidly, as 1/r4, because the negative charges do such a good job of canceling the positive charges. As you add more and more positive charges to an equal number of negative charges, the range of the electromagnetic force of the system gets shorter and shorter. The interesting thing is that most objects are made out of atoms, and most atoms have an equal number of positive and negative electric charges. Therefore, despite the fact that the raw electromagnetic force of a single charge has an infinite range, the effective range of the electromagnetic force for typical objects such as stars and planets is much shorter. In fact, neutral atoms have an effective electromagnetic range on the order of nanometers. On astronomical scales, this leaves only gravity. If there were such a thing as negative mass (antimatter has positive mass), and if atoms generally contained equal parts of positive and negative mass, then gravity would suffer the same fate as electromagnetism and there would be no significant force at the astronomical scale. Fortunately, there is no negative mass, and therefore the gravitational force of multiple bodies close together is always additive. In summary, gravity is the weakest of the forces in general, but it is the dominant one at astronomical scales because it has the longest range and because there is no negative mass.

*NOTE: In the above description, I have used the older Newtonian formulation of gravity. Gravity is more accurately described by the formulation of General Relativity, which tells us that gravity is not a real force but is a warping of spacetime. On scales smaller than galaxy groups and away from super-dense masses like black holes, Newtonian gravity is an excellent approximation to General Relativity. However, to properly explain all effects, you have to use General Relativity. According to General Relativity and the many experimental measurements confirming it, gravity does not have infinite range but goes away on the scale larger than galaxy groups. Therefore, gravity only has 1/r2 behavior and "unlimited" range on the scale smaller than galaxy groups. That is why I said gravity has "effectively" infinite range. On the largest scales, our universe is expanding rather than being drawn together by gravitational attraction. This behavior is predicted by General Relativity. On scales smaller than galaxy groups, spacetime acts dominantly like attractive Newtonian gravity, while on larger scales, spacetime acts like something completely different that is expanding."

Why is gravity the strongest force?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
One again, you are incorrect. I didn't study at a university.
You recall incorrectly, I said the astrophysicist who wrote the blog that debunks EU is Brian Koberland.
I'm not an astrophysicist.
Sorry for these misconceptions :)

Particle accelerators have not found dark matter. It sounds like even if they did you are ready to reject it. It's very clear that you are not following evidence or anything related to science but are chasing religious fantasies of ancient people having mystical insights. Why not just believe in a savior-god?
It "seems like this or that" :) Of course I reject DM and if they find this ghosts, I´ll of course will accept it.

As for all of your demeaning mythical comments, I just don´t care since I don´t take you for an expert in these realms.

Native said:
No I don´t at all. I more than suggest is that EM is not understood on the cosmic scales, mostly because of different scientific EM areas once have their own EM approaches, which lead to the splitting up the general EM force into several fundamental EM-forces.
Wait, what? You've been talking about how much you disagree with all these "schizophrenic" forces that have multiple theories and NOW you're saying you don't understand EM and it requires multiple theories??
Of course I´m not opposing Maxwell´s EM laws. If you have paid more attention to what I´m dealing with, you would have know by know that I´m focusing on the formational processes in cosmos. It´s just your own bias which leads you astray.

Native said:

???"Gravity adds up over longer discances??? Elaborate on this please.
Yes. Everything PM has said is true and saying he is not intuitive because he's not looking at gamma rays and concluding that a no-math, no predictions electric universe non-model that goes against the standard model and uses Egyptain gods as a source must be the correct theory is ridiculous.
Don´t include mythical comments in your replies. You have no clues of the ancient creation myths.
Gravity adds up at galactic scales

"Gravity is so weak at the atomic scale that scientists can typically ignore it without incurring significant errors in their calculations.
I know - and that´s why Standard cosmologists misses the very basic points of formations in cosmos.
The strong and weak nuclear forces are very short ranged, meaning that outside of the tiny nuclei of atoms, these forces quickly drop to zero. The tiny size of the nuclei of atoms is a direct result of the extreme short range of the nuclear forces.
And this fits very well to the EM formational processes all over the places in micro- and macrocosm where the EM works as it´s strongest in the plasmatic realms.

Here the standard cosmologists confuses the much stronger EM formational forces as "gravitational forces" and extend this increasingly to "work stronger in longer distances". This is just a plain misconception.

Of course standard cosmologicists have to ascribe much more force to the "gravity" as long as they ignores the other 3 stronger EM fundamental forces on the macro-cosmic scales.
*NOTE: In the above description, I have used the older Newtonian formulation of gravity. Gravity is more accurately described by the formulation of General Relativity, which tells us that gravity is not a real force but is a warping of spacetime. On scales smaller than galaxy groups and away from super-dense masses like black holes, Newtonian gravity is an excellent approximation to General Relativity. However, to properly explain all effects, you have to use General Relativity. According to General Relativity and the many experimental measurements confirming it, gravity does not have infinite range but goes away on the scale larger than galaxy groups.
I don´t take Einsteins strange "curved space time" seriously, but otherwise I agree here. The different disagreements between the standing cosmological models just shows how important it is to find a common model.

And when you take all standing cosmological models, most of these have troubles dealing with the one model which is based on the Newtonian ideas of gravity - and especially with all the "dark ghosts" which later on is invented to "explain" phenomenons which ONLY can be explained by the formational forces of EM working on the plasmatic scales of cosmic "clouds of gases and dust".

Just for the record: I don´t claim EM to hold planets in their orbits, but i claim EM to be the force which formats the Milky Way and thus also the Solar System which is an integrated part of the MIlky Way formation and rotation.

The planets aren´t hold in orbits by anything at all. They STILL follows the expanding orbital motions which once were given from the swirling galactic center from where the Solar System once was formed and repelled out in the galactic arm, thus also obeying the discovered galactic rotation curve.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Subject: The Plasma Cosmology Approaches

With reference to the “newly discovered black hole”, Wal Thornhill deals with the Plasma Cosmology this in these two videos:

Part 1
Part 2

The contents here is very much similar to what I´ve said and claimed for two decades.

NOTE: I´m NOT a member of the ThunderboltsProject and I don´t support the Mytho-Astronomical EU ideas in this society.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Just for the record: I don´t claim EM to hold planets in their orbits, but i claim EM to be the force which formats the Milky Way and thus also the Solar System which is an integrated part of the MIlky Way formation and rotation.


So, what holds the planets in orbits?

The planets aren´t hold in orbits by anything at all. They STILL follows the expanding orbital motions which once were given from the swirling galactic center from where the Solar System once was formed and repelled out in the galactic arm, thus also obeying the discovered galactic rotation curve.

So, nothing holds the planets in orbits. They are just following the expanding orbital motions.

Here is a simple experiment you can try to prove your concept. Tie a 5 lb rock to the end of a 5 ft rope. Spin it around until the rock has established an expanding orbital motion. Then let go of the rope. If you are correct, the rock will continue in an expanding orbital motion. If you are not correct, the rock will fly out in a straight line.

Or have your EM friends write a simple computer program to simulate your concepts.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
As for all of your demeaning mythical comments, I just don´t care since I don´t take you for an expert in these realms.

Except my mentor is Joseph Campbell who is the worlds expert on mythology.
Campbell also says myth is not science.


No I don´t at all. I more than suggest is that EM is not understood on the cosmic scales, mostly because of different scientific EM areas once have their own EM approaches, which lead to the splitting up the general EM force into several fundamental EM-forces.

That is exactly what I said. Having to re-work EM to account for the other forces, to increase it's strength and to split it up into various theories means we currently do not full understand EM. That is exactly what that would mean.

But in real science, in the standard model EM is completely understood. It will not account for the strong force. What you suggest would mean we don't understand EM yet.
You're playing word-games as if that makes it mean something else.

No.

To change EM to make it do what the strong force does means an entirely new understanding of EM would have to be created. Because you don't know what the strong force is, how it works, how essential it is and how impossible it would be for photons to do this (Maxwell and quantumelectrodynamics would be wrong) you seem to think it isn't a big deal.

This is one of many reasons I say to read a dozen or so pop-quantum physics books first.

QED is the most accurate theory ever produced by man, it predicts the magnetic moment of the electron to a decimal point higher than any other theory predicts anything.
It's not wrong. But to make light do what you say everything would be wrong.

It isn't. There will be new science but EU is not happening.

Of course I´m not opposing Maxwell´s EM laws. If you have paid more attention to what I´m dealing with, you would have know by know that I´m focusing on the formational processes in cosmos. It´s just your own bias which leads you astray.

I know, all science is wrong and everyone is bias. You are "that guy".

You can say "formational processes" all day long but if it's all EM then you need EM to account for the strong force. No matter how you spin it.



???

Don´t include mythical comments in your replies. You have no clues of the ancient creation myths.

I'll post what I like. We can add "bullying" to your list of flaws I guess.

You are allowed to post science comments in your thread and you clearly have no clue of modern science.


of formations in cosmos.

And this fits very well to the EM formational processes all over the places in micro- and macrocosm where the EM works as it´s strongest in the plasmatic realms.

No, your answer is pure gibberish. "Plasmatic realms", micro-macroosm"???

I'm explaining that the strong force is very short range. It does not extend at all beyond the nucleus. It holds protons together in atoms which should be repelling apart. That's all I was talking about.
Your answer with "realms" and micro-maco blah blah" is completely out in non-sequiter land?

You have not dealt with the strong force yet except to post nonsense?
Seriously can you make a straight answer that isn't in mythical elderich?

The strong force is mediated by gluons, they are only active very close to the nucleus and they work to hold the protons together. Even though the EM charges are pushing them apart.
So EM cannot fix this. Can you comment on this without talking gibberish and floating your consciousness into the plasmatic realm?

Here the standard cosmologists confuses the much stronger EM formational forces as "gravitational forces" and extend this increasingly to "work stronger in longer distances". This is just a plain misconception.

What are EM formational forces? Explain in laymans terms them post to some papers.


Of course standard cosmologicists have to ascribe much more force to the "gravity" as long as they ignores the other 3 stronger EM fundamental forces on the macro-cosmic scales.

Because real scientists can write out equations that quickly tell them that line of thinking is nonsense.
Some laymen who do not understand science might think that is possible.
Some laymen think the Earth is flat,

I don´t take Einsteins strange "curved space time" seriously, but otherwise I agree here. The different disagreements between the standing cosmological models just shows how important it is to find a common model.

Still waiting for refutations of all of the proof of general relativity?


And when you take all standing cosmological models, most of these have troubles dealing with the one model which is based on the Newtonian ideas of gravity - and especially with all the "dark ghosts" which later on is invented to "explain" phenomenons which ONLY can be explained by the formational forces of EM working on the plasmatic scales of cosmic "clouds of gases and dust".

Why would you ever say something like "ONLY can be explained by"???
For one the thing you want to use to explain it does not have a working model to even try to explain that?
But why would you be so close-minded and think there is only one way to explain something?
This is exactly the god-in-the-gap argument, ..."god must be the only explanation"?
In this case it's "RA must be the only explanation". Or whatever god?





The planets aren´t hold in orbits by anything at all. They STILL follows the expanding orbital motions which once were given from the swirling galactic center from where the Solar System once was formed and repelled out in the galactic arm, thus also obeying the discovered galactic rotation curve.

Right except we use gravitational equations to gain an enormous amount of momentum on a spaceship, an amount only gravity could provide when we slingshot along a planet and use it's gravity to accelerate far more than if you were just using angular momentum.

That is just one of a tremendous amount of ways to show gravity is real.
Newtonian gravity.

I noticed you dropped the triangulation of GPS sattelites a long time ago.

You really don't care about evidence, this is all a religious pursuit to you.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Subject: The Plasma Cosmology Approaches

With reference to the “newly discovered black hole”, Wal Thornhill deals with the Plasma Cosmology this in these two videos:

Part 1
Part 2

The contents here is very much similar to what I´ve said and claimed for two decades.

NOTE: I´m NOT a member of the ThunderboltsProject and I don´t support the Mytho-Astronomical EU ideas in this society.



Blah, blah, gravity is not real, blah blah. as usual no proof just appeal to emotion.
And, "why would a black hole which sucks material in shoot material out in jets".....I don't know maybe it's part of the theory and we already know why but you're just appealing to non-science people who don't know better?

The EU theory appeals to a spirituality. It's no different than Christian fundamentalists with all these websites about how evolution is wrong and the age of the earth is wrong.
"Biologists are all wrong, geologists are brainwashed".....sound familiar?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Except my mentor is Joseph Campbell who is the worlds expert on mythology.
Campbell also says myth is not science.
The Joseph Campbell society is mostly founded on dream interpretation from Carl Gustav Jung (and Freud) in order to dewellop the spiritual growth of individuals. In this sense the Joseph Campbell contents is psychological and not mythological.
That is exactly what I said. Having to re-work EM to account for the other forces, to increase it's strength and to split it up into various theories means we currently do not full understand EM. That is exactly what that would mean.
And I agreed to this, didn´t I?
You are allowed to post science comments in your thread and you clearly have no clue of modern science.
Here you go again with your personal judgement on what I understand or not - and you do this on the basis of modern scientific groups and cosmological models, which even don´t understand each other! Otherwise we already would have a TOE.
To change EM to make it do what the strong force does means an entirely new understanding of EM would have to be created.
Correct, So why don´t you listen and take it in?

1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.
2 The EM works everywhere with different charges and frequensies (weak and strong) and polarities.
3) The EM works strongest as the formative force on the "fluent stages of gas and dust". Here you in fact have the new and neccesary definition of EM everywhere.
You can say "formational processes" all day long but if it's all EM then you need EM to account for the strong force. No matter how you spin it.
It´s NOT my fault that you and other differs between the 3 EM fundamental forces and thus misses to recognize the fundamental and formative EM qualities everywhere in cosmos.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Subject: The Plasma Cosmology Approaches

With reference to the “newly discovered black hole”, Wal Thornhill deals with the Plasma Cosmology this in these two videos:
Blah, blah, gravity is not real, blah blah. as usual no proof just appeal to emotion.
And, "why would a black hole which sucks material in shoot material out in jets".....I don't know maybe it's part of the theory and we already know why but you're just appealing to non-science people who don't know better?
"You don´t know" and STILL you have no other comments but "blah, blah" and other demeaning comments!?

The video contents certainly appealed to your emotions and nothing else.
The EU theory appeals to a spirituality. It's no different than Christian fundamentalists with all these websites about how evolution is wrong and the age of the earth is wrong.
"Biologists are all wrong, geologists are brainwashed".....sound familiar?
What´s wrong in being spiritually interested? This is just what Joseph Campbell is advocating for :)

At least you are an excellent performer in the intrigant department in a discussion projecting all kinds of your personal biases :) What do Joseph Campbell and Carl Gustav Jung state on personal projections?
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Correct, So why don´t you listen and take it in?

1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.

Atoms have electrons and protons in them which are charged particles. That is their 'EM qualities'. What 'firm and fluent stages' means is anyone's guess.

2 The EM works everywhere with different charges and frequensies (weak and strong) and polarities.

There are two charges: positive and negative. And yes, oscillating EM fields can have a wide variety of frequencies. That is, after all, what light is. As for polarity, light is polarized perpendicular to the direction of travel. There are two common ways to describe polarity, linearly polarized and circularly polarized. The two methods are equivalent and can be interconverted.

The EM aspects of atoms tend to be small at a distance because most atoms are electrically neutral: the EM forces from them tend to cancel out at a distance.

3) The EM works strongest as the formative force on the "fluent stages of gas and dust". Here you in fact have the new and neccesary definition of EM everywhere.

What definition? I saw no definition. I saw some vague descriptions. And *why* would the EM force work as the 'formative force' (whatever *that* means) on the 'fluent stages of gas and dust'? Remember that gas and dust are electrically neutral and have no significant magnetic field. So they would be mostly immune to any EM effects.

It´s NOT my fault that you and other differs between the 3 EM fundamental forces and thus misses to recognize the fundamental and formative EM qualities everywhere in cosmos.

Actually, yes it is. You have advocated a positiion and refused to give any reason to think that position is correct. The current theories concerning the *4* fundamental foces work very, very well and in detail. You have given no reason to think that the EM force is 'formative' of those things you require it to be.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Correct, So why don´t you listen and take it in?

1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.
Atoms have electrons and protons in them which are charged particles. That is their 'EM qualities'. What 'firm and fluent stages' means is anyone's guess.
As I said, it just means everywhere :)
There are two charges: positive and negative. And yes, oscillating EM fields can have a wide variety of frequencies. That is, after all, what light is. As for polarity, light is polarized perpendicular to the direction of travel. There are two common ways to describe polarity, linearly polarized and circularly polarized. The two methods are equivalent and can be interconverted.
Yes, and these different EM qualities causes different kinds of motions, i.e. in "cosmic clouds", the EM qualities provides both rotational and orbital motions to everything.
What definition? I saw no definition. I saw some vague descriptions. And *why* would the EM force work as the 'formative force' (whatever *that* means) on the 'fluent stages of gas and dust'? Remember that gas and dust are electrically neutral and have no significant magnetic field. So they would be mostly immune to any EM effects.
"Gas and dust" as in "cosmic clouds" of course are atoms too and they have EM qualities wich can be affected by outside EM charges.

I said:
It´s NOT my fault that you and other differs between the 3 EM fundamental forces and thus misses to recognize the fundamental and formative EM qualities everywhere in cosmos.
Actually, yes it is. You have advocated a positiion and refused to give any reason to think that position is correct. The current theories concerning the *4* fundamental foces work very, very well and in detail. You have given no reason to think that the EM force is 'formative' of those things you require it to be.
Yes I´ve avocated a position - and you and others refuse to take it in just because "consensus science" differs between EM on 3 different scientific levels and branches.

This is of course NOT my fault since I advocate to look at the EM otherwise and as an united force of formation everywhere.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Native said:
Correct, So why don´t you listen and take it in?

1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.

As I said, it just means everywhere :)

Yes, and these different EM qualities causes different kinds of motions, i.e. in "cosmic clouds", the EM qualities provides both rotational and orbital motions to everything.

Really? Prove it. Or show it from the equations of EM.

"Gas and dust" as in "cosmic clouds" of course are atoms too and they have EM qualities wich can be affected by outside EM charges.

Not by much because the individual atoms are electrically neutral.

I said:
It´s NOT my fault that you and other differs between the 3 EM fundamental forces and thus misses to recognize the fundamental and formative EM qualities everywhere in cosmos.

Yes I´ve avocated a position - and you and others refuse to take it in just because "consensus science" differs between EM on 3 different scientific levels and branches.

It isn't a matter of 'taking it in'. YOU have been repeatedly asked for details and have refused to give them. YOU have been repeatedly asked for a workable model and you have ignored that request. YOU have been asked to explain the motions within the solar system and have refused or avoided the issue every time.

What you don't seem to understand is that standard science *does* accept EM as *one* of the fundamental forces in the universe. But it is NOT the only one. In particular, gravity tends to dominate at the cosmic scale precisely because there is no 'negative gravity' so the effects don't cancel out.
This is of course NOT my fault since I advocate to look at the EM otherwise and as an united force of formation everywhere.[/QUOTE]
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Polymath257,
1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.
2 The EM works everywhere with different charges and frequensies (weak and strong) and polarities.
3) The EM works strongest as the formative force on the "fluent stages of gas and dust". Here you in fact have the new and neccesary definition of EM everywhere.
When you cite anything, don´t take it out of contexts as you do here:
1) Atoms with EM qualities are everywhere in firm and fluent stages.

I said:
"Gas and dust" as in "cosmic clouds" of course are atoms too and they have EM qualities wich can be affected by outside EM charges.

When I refer to EM in "cosmic clouds of gas and dust" you of course have to include and implement the concept of Plasma Cosmology which is an important supplement in the EU models. In this stage the EM motions provides rotational and orbital motions to everything in such a cloud.
It isn't a matter of 'taking it in'. YOU have been repeatedly asked for details and have refused to give them. YOU have been repeatedly asked for a workable model and you have ignored that request. YOU have been asked to explain the motions within the solar system and have refused or avoided the issue every time.
Yes it is! If you don´t grasp the overall ideas of uniting the 3 EM forces described in plain words and sentenses instead of listening to what the divided cosmological science and models have to say about each other, you´ll never get the plot - with or without mah and calculations.

In fact I´ve repeatedly provided explanations - and you´ve repeatedly have rejected these, just because you don´t take it in.
What you don't seem to understand is that standard science *does* accept EM as *one* of the fundamental forces in the universe.
If so, why is it then that "standard science" don´t include the EM as THE obvious formative force in galaxies?
But it is NOT the only one. In particular, gravity tends to dominate at the cosmic scale precisely because there is no 'negative gravity' so the effects don't cancel out.
You should know by now what I mean about the Newtonian "Apple-Pie" assumptions - especially on the cosmic scale where it otherwise is commonly known and accepted that Newton is out of order here. So why you´re still and generally referring to Old Newton, I dont´know.

It´s only in the minds of some outdated scientists and proponents of gravity that "gravity tends to dominate at the cosmic scale"..

I can´t help thinking that the solution of finding the Theory of Everything is so difficult because modern cosmological scientists are hypnotized to think that cosmological science has to be difficult.

Even in ancient myths of creation there is 1 prime force of creation (via light) which creates everything. It´s just modern science which have come far astray in their own speculative and calculative minds.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Subject: Apropos the EU and Plasma Cosmology

Excerpt:
Galaxy NGC 1275 is also known as Perseus A. It is a Seyfert galaxy in the center of the Perseus cluster (Abell 426), 230 million light-years away, as astronomers reckon distance. NGC 1275 is a strong radio and X-ray source, producing peculiar emission lines in its nucleus. NGC 1275 was discovered by William Herschel on October 17, 1786.

What makes this galaxy so unique is that multiple strands of material extend outward in light-years-long tendrils. According to astrophysicists, the filaments are examples of “ionized hydrogen”, or electric charge carriers. The hydrogen atom is composed of one electron and one proton, so ionization reduces it to individual nucleons, or plasma. Since electricity is generated by charged particles in motion, the filaments are transmitting electromagnetic energy across vast distances. What holds these “transmission lines” together?

According to recent studies, the plasma filaments are surrounded by gas that is around 55 million Celsius! The tendrils of electricity are constrained in an electromagnetic field, which is how they retain their structure. The image at the top of the page represents the first time researchers observed details in the individual stands of plasma making up the filaments.

Since the hydrogen in NGC 1275 is ionized, it is defined as a plasma. In an Electric Universe, charge flow in plasma generates electromagnetic fields that constrict the current channel. Previous Picture of the Day articles point out that the constriction is known as a “Bennett pinch,” or “z-pinch.” Pinched electric filaments remain coherent over long distances because they wind around each other without coalescing, something like a twisted pair of electric wires.

It is well-known that Birkeland currents are probably the greatest long-range attractors in the Universe, with a force more about 39 orders of magnitude greater than gravity. Birkeland currents attract each other when they are far apart but repel each other when they are close, resulting in pairs of filaments spiraling around their common axes. This process can repeat, producing “cables” of pairs of pairs and so on".
--------------
It is this electromagnetic twisting "Birkeland Current" wich causes rotational and orbital motions to everything in cosmos.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Subject: Some philosophical thoughts and discussions.

The Concept of Mass - with Jim Baggott

And:

Why Is Gravity So Elusive? | Frank Wilczek, Erik Verlinde, Laura Mersini-Houghton

Note that the only debater of these tree in the last video who have got a Nobel Prize, Frank Wilczek, also is the one who stick most firmly to the consensus ideas. It´s obviously not from him that new cosmological ideas and solutions occurs.

 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
"I you study physics one day"!?
You obviously have the conviction that nobody can study physics outside the Universities.

Never said that or implied it. I know you don't understand physics because you don't seem to understand physics?


BTW. If I recall correctly: You claimed yourself to be a theoretical
astrophysicist, didn´t you? In which "astrophysical branch" if I may ask?

No I quoted Brian Koberlan the astrophysicist.

DM is just an invention in order to patch the gravitational contradiction of the galactic rotation curve observation. After this significant discovery, all kinds of "dark this and that" ghosts showed up everywere and even in the institutions of colliders.

See, you just ignore facts and continue making blanket statements?
You skipped over dark matter accounting for:

When we put dark matter into super computer models of the universe it accounts for:

Large-Scale Structure Formation

Galactic Rotation Curves

Galaxy Clusters

The Cosmic Microwave Background


There are many other reasons why DM seems to be a good fit. Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, which explains the way light elements such as Helium were formed after the Big Bang, tells us abundance of baryonic matter doesn’t account for the total matter content of the Universe inferred from other observations, and dark matter does solve that issue.


I just wrote that LAST POST and your response was to completely ignore the facts and reduce DM to solving one thing?


Subsequently all talks and discussions of DM is useless and it is an obvious task for Ghost Busters :)

So not only do you not understand physics but you don't understand science? At all? Why would scientists not explore all options? Especially when it fits so many areas? Your idea is to just use ignorance?
Again, your fake sig says to explore and be open minded? But then you say DM is 100% fraud and crank?
Your words and attitude do not match that sig, its' a fraud.

No I don´t at all. I more than suggest is that EM is not understood on the cosmic scales, mostly because of different scientific EM areas once have their own EM approaches, which lead to the splitting up the general EM force into several fundamental EM-forces.

That isn't what happened.

I dont ignore this! I just take the EM force to work anywhere and with different charges and thats it.

Wait what? How does that explain the strong force? EM is not strong enough to hold protons together, how are you explaining this?

You could make the same measurement just by using the refraction of light.

No,

Gravitational lensing or cloud refraction?


Macro-In almost all work on gravitational lensing, the light is bent by an entire galaxy, not by a single star.

Micro- Micro-lensing MACHO studies were big for a while. There the light is generally bent by a isolated, low-mass body, so we have plenty of events of that kind to look at.

"One point in addition to the other answers. Refraction is almost always chromatic (i.e., different wavelengths refract differently). Gravitational lensing is achromatic. Some studies of gravitational lensing, particularly the MACHO-like microlensing studies, look specifically for achromaticity to test that what they're seeing really is gravitational."

Gravitational lensing or cloud refraction?

Gravitational Microlensing: Searches and Results

As mentioned in the previous lecture, we are able to resolve the rings and arcs produced by very massive gravitational lenses: entire galaxies, and clusters of galaxies. The Einstein ring radius of a single star is tiny: about 0.001 arcseconds, much too small to be seen by telescopes on the ground or in space. So if one star were to pass directly in front of another, we would not notice a ring of light. Rats.

But -- gravitational lenses don't just distort light from the background object: they also magnify it. Even if the morphological change is too small to discern, we may see an increase in an object's brightness as it is lensed.

Now, if the increase in brightness occurred over a very short time, say, ten seconds, then we'd probably never notice. That's shorter than most astronomical exposure times, so we wouldn't see any gradual rise and fall. If the increase occurred over a very long time, say, fifty years, then we'd also probably not notice. That's just too long a period for a single scientist to keep watching the same star. But, if the change in brightness due to lensing occurs over just the right interval -- a few weeks to a few months -- then astronomers might indeed notice the variation from one night to the next.

This places some limits on the stars which act as lenses, and as background sources: they must be moving relative to each other at the right rate to cause the lensing geometry to change appreciably over a month or two. It turns out that if

  • the lensing object is 1-100 kiloparcsecs away from us
  • the background star is 1-100 kiloparcsecs behind the lens
then typical motions yield variations in brightness over a few weeks to a year or so. The increase is very small unless the background source passes within the Einstein ring radius of the lensing object. In the example below, three background stars pass behind a lensing...


Gravitational Microlensing: Searches and Results


Native said:
I reject to discuss further with you on this level of mythical ignorance and insulting remarks.

Still, you´re having no "damn" troubles at all dealing with the human made modern science fictions of DM mythical ghosts in a scientific discussion :)

it's called a "model", in science they work with them and try to gain new knowledge and they make predictions and they test them and all sorts of stuff like that.
If something is seemingly on the right track why would they discard it?
They definitely would not discard evidence just because it disagreed with their supernatural beliefs which is exactly what you are doing. Otherwise why would you care? Why would you not encourage exploration? Even if it turned out to be wrong?
You should try to be even a tiny bit open-minded.
 
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