No, ‘the Jews’ did not kill Jesus

[Colt]

because they were commanded not to. So this is not at all relevant to a non-command situation.

again, soldiers, when commanded by God, killed. But somehow, that's the same as accusations that an entire nation is guilty because (possibly) a small group which wasn't in any control, or responding to a commandment by God, made a recommendation that a political rebel be dealt with by civil authorities. Right...

Did you want to equate any other unrelated events because it makes you happy? Heck, it shouldn't be a problem to accuse Jews during Jesus' time and forward as a whole of anything because in the desert, Moses punched a rock!

Soldiers commanded by Moses who was hearing genocidal voices! Today he would be a war criminal! God never said any such thing! They might have "believed" that they were doing Gods will. John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. Are you sure it was Gods voice that kept directing Israelites to kill others in the OT???

But of coarse the "Jews" as a people are NOT responsible for the death of Jesus (a fellow Jew) as well as his followers many of whom were Jews. Jesus' own siblings and their descendants were unjustly persecuted as well.

Christianity was an early sect among Jews in Jerusalem who were persecuted by the Jews. Christians have persecuted Jews as well. The facts are what they are.

 

[rosends]

Soldiers commanded by Moses who was hearing genocidal voices! Today he would be a war criminal! God never said any such thing! They might have "believed" that they were doing Gods will. John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

So if you don't like the message it isn't true. OK.

Are you sure it was Gods voice that kept directing Israelites to kill others in the OT???

Yup. Just as I am sure that the gospels aren't true.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus was seen walking, talking and eating food after the event of Cross, so nobody killed Jesus. The Jews did have all the intention of killing Jesus on the Cross, I understand. It was a case of an attempted murder of Jesus on the part of the then Jews, however. Right?

Regards

Jesus was tried, convicted, and executed by Romans. Christians sucking up to Romans blamed Jews.

 

[Colt]

So if you don't like the message it isn't true. OK.
Yup. Just as I am sure that the gospels aren't true.

And if the Israelites wildly exaggerated history is true then the Jews have a long history of killing even their own prophets. So putting Jesus through a trumped up trial in order to silence the threat he posed to the lucrative Temple business is completely plausible.

 

[Colt]

Jesus was tried, convicted, and executed by Romans. Christians sucking up to Romans blamed Jews.

You missed the part about the Sanhedrin finding Jesus guilty while the Romens didn't care.


Jesus before Pilate
(Matthew 27:11–14; Luke 23:1–5)

28Then they led Jesus away from Caiaphas into the Praetorium. By now it was early morning, and the Jews did not enter the Praetorium, to avoid being defiled and unable to eat the Passover.29So Pilate went out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”30“If He were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed Him over to you.”31“You take Him and judge Him by your own law,” Pilate told them.

“We are not permitted to execute anyone,” the Jews replied. 32This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus, who was a Jew through his mother, Mary, taught a new doctrine of love and faith that applied to all people and not just the Jews.

He specifically tells a woman he only deals with Jews and calls her a dog for her trouble.

 

[pearl]

again, soldiers, when commanded by God, killed. But somehow, that's the same as accusations that an entire nation is guilty because (possibly) a small group which wasn't in any control, or responding to a commandment by God, made a recommendation that a political rebel be dealt with by civil authorities. Right...

The timing of this article coincides with, for Catholics, what is considered our High Holy Days and the presentation of the Passion of Christ in the Liturgy and the many Passion plays popular with many Catholic schools and parishes. In 1985 the Vatican issued Notes on the Correct Way to Present the Jews and Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis of the Roman Catholic Church.

"There is evident, in particular, a painful ignorance of the history and traditions of Judaism, of which only negative aspects and often caricature seem to form part of the stock ideas of many Christians."

g) In sum, Judaism and Jewish society in the time of Christ and the apostles were complex realities, embracing many different trends, many spiritual, religious, social, and cultural values (Guidelines III). Presentations of the passion should strive to reflect this spiritual vitality, avoiding any implication that Jesus' death was a result of religious antagonism between a stereotyped "Judaism" and Christian doctrine. Many of the controversies (or "antitheses") between Jesus and his fellow Jews, as recorded in the gospels, we know today in fact reflect conflicts that took place long after the time of Christ between the early Christian communities and various Jewish communities (Notes IV, 29 A). To generalize from such specific and often later conflicts to an either/or opposition between Jesus and Judaism is to anachronize and, more basically, to vitiate the spirit and intent of the gospel texts (Notes III, 28; IV, 29 F).

Unfortunately, I'm sure there will once again appear Mel Gibson's 'Passion of the Christ' on the tv screen during the next few weeks.

 

[rosends]

And if the Israelites wildly exaggerated history is true then the Jews have a long history of killing even their own prophets. So putting Jesus through a trumped up trial in order to silence the threat he posed to the lucrative Temple business is completely plausible.

Amazingly, if the Jewish scriptures are true then the Jews are willing to report when they did wrong and killed a prophet (Zecharia), and when an evil king killed a prophet. The "long history" needs more substantiation.

As for the "trumped up trial" one would have to believe that teh gospels, rife with other error is somehow accurate in this. It isn't.

 

[Colt]

Amazingly, if the Jewish scriptures are true then the Jews are willing to report when they did wrong and killed a prophet (Zecharia), and when an evil king killed a prophet. The "long history" needs more substantiation.

As for the "trumped up trial" one would have to believe that teh gospels, rife with other error is somehow accurate in this. It isn't.

True, but reports about killing the prophets were written later, in retrospect. Like when Jewish followers of Jesus wrote the Gospels. Both the OT and NT have errors. Again, Jews as a people aren't responsible for those who were in opposition to Jesus in his day. Today Americans wrestle with our association with slavery and Native American oppression and genocide. Some of our ancestors were culpable, it cannot be dismissed. Every culture on earth is related to notable events with their history.

But isn't it true that today some of Israels best friends are Christians?

 

[rosends]

True, but reports about killing the prophets were written later, in retrospect.

Very few things are written accounts of specific events before they happen.

Like when Jewish followers of Jesus wrote the Gospels.

That is certainly one opinion of gospel authorship.

Both the OT and NT have errors.

That is a judgment driven by an areligious perspective.

But isn't it true that today some of Israels best friends are Christians?

My best friend is my dog. But I think he's Jewish.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

And if the Israelites wildly exaggerated history is true then the Jews have a long history of killing even their own prophets

Name them?

 

[KWED]

It might have been reserved for 'enemies of the Empire' but it was used where and when the Romans felt like
using it. And in Jesus' case the Jews specifically asked for it. And as Pilot understood, in Judaea you didn't
want to stir the Jews too much otherwise you are called back to Rome.

Again, you are taking the Bible accounts as gospel ('scuse the pun).

But if the bible is not 'true' then neither is, say, Hannibal. This story reads like myth to me - carried across the
Alps on elephants, by allies who rode giant scorpions into battle, and defeated by a man born of the gods.
Same too with many, if not most of history's heros.

Indeed. We should only accept as historical those accounts that have independent corroboration, especially these they describe extraordinary events. There is no evidence for giant scorpions or their use in battle. Therefore we should treat the account with extreme scepticism. However, you may be confusing Hannibal's actual use of the Scorpion, which was a type of small ballista firing large arrows/bolts.

On the other hand there is a large body of evidence for war elephants used around that period, and many accounts of the battles against the Romans in Italy in which Hannibal used them. Researchers have found evidence of large numbers of animals and humans moving through the Alps, carbon dated to 218BC, the period when Hannibal is supposed to have crossed the Alps. So it is reasonable to accept it as an historical event.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You missed the part about the Sanhedrin finding Jesus guilty while the Romens didn't care.


Jesus before Pilate
(Matthew 27:11–14; Luke 23:1–5)

28Then they led Jesus away from Caiaphas into the Praetorium. By now it was early morning, and the Jews did not enter the Praetorium, to avoid being defiled and unable to eat the Passover.29So Pilate went out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”30“If He were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed Him over to you.”31“You take Him and judge Him by your own law,” Pilate told them.

“We are not permitted to execute anyone,” the Jews replied. 32This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

I didn’t miss it. It’s historically unlikely.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But isn't it true that today some of Israels best friends are Christians?

In the sense that they are friends so Jesus will come down and kill them all, I think Israel needs better friends.

 

[KWED]

You missed the part about the Sanhedrin finding Jesus guilty while the Romens didn't care.


Jesus before Pilate
(Matthew 27:11–14; Luke 23:1–5)

28Then they led Jesus away from Caiaphas into the Praetorium. By now it was early morning, and the Jews did not enter the Praetorium, to avoid being defiled and unable to eat the Passover.29So Pilate went out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”30“If He were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed Him over to you.”31“You take Him and judge Him by your own law,” Pilate told them.

“We are not permitted to execute anyone,” the Jews replied. 32This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

And you missed the part about the Bible not being an accurate, historical record.

 

[Nakosis]

Confronting these stereotypes is especially important as we move closer to the Passion narratives, in which the complex interplay between “the Jews” (including individuals like Caiaphas and Annas, as well as groups like the Pharisees, scribes and Temple authorities) and the Roman authorities (primarily Pontius Pilate) have given rise to questions about the responsibility for Jesus’s crucifixion. The straightforward answer is the Romans, since only they had the authority to put a person to death, in this case Jesus. Yet centuries of Bible commentaries about the role of “the Jews,” especially in John’s Gospel, gave rise to centuries of deadly sentiments of anti-Judaism (against the Jewish religion) and anti-Semitism (against the Jewish people themselves).
No, ‘the Jews’ did not kill Jesus | America Magazine

Regardless, Jews alive today had no hand in the account of Jesus' death.
So it is rather silly to hold a person who happens to be a Jew today accountable to something that happened 2000 years ago.

 

[pearl]

As for the "trumped up trial" one would have to believe that teh gospels, rife with other error is somehow accurate in this. It isn't.

There are many questions as to the historicity of a 'trial'.
Not surprisingly, the Gospels are not consistent in presenting this "behind closed doors" scene. In Mark and Matthew "the chief priests and whole council" convene on first night of Passover to judge Jesus' fate. This scene has always caused difficulties for historians who wonder how it would be possible to convene a formal council on the night that Jews are eating the Passover seder (as both Mark 14:12 and Matthew 26:17 had indicated earlier, though John 19:31 has a different timetable). Luke only has a morning "assembly of the elders of the people" (22:6), while John depicts no council meeting at all at this point, but only a questioning of Jesus about his disciples and teaching by Annas (18:13; 19).
Blasphemy could be leveled against anyone arrogantly claiming to have the authority to criticize God's anointed priests. If Jesus did accuse the Temple leaders of being corrupt stewards then they might well have viewed his remarks as blasphemous preludes to violence against them.

 

[pearl]

Regardless, Jews alive today had no hand in the account of Jesus' death.
So it is rather silly to hold a person who happens to be a Jew today accountable to something that happened 2000 years ago.

Its more than silly, but there it is, for many Christians.

 

[Colt]

Name them?

Zechariah the son of Jehoiada is one mentioned.

John the Baptist

Jesus, the incarnate Son of God is a good example of rejecting one of their own and killing him.

In terms of killing perceived enemies of Israel Elijah killed a bunch of the prophets of Baal.

9 Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” 10 He said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.”

 

[Colt]

In the sense that they are friends so Jesus will come down and kill them all, I think Israel needs better friends.

Jesus never said any such thing.