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No Adam = no Original Sin - right?

Scott1

Well-Known Member
I've never seen this definition of sin before.
"Adam and Eve were overcome with the same temptation that afflicts all humanity: to be autonomous, to go their own way, to realize the fullness of human existence without God. According to the Orthodox fathers sin is not a violation of an impersonal law or code of behavior, but a rejection of the life offered by God (Yannaras, 1984). This is themark,to whichthe wordamartiarefers.Fallen human life is above all else the failure to realize the God-given potential of human existence, which is, as St. Peter writes, to “become partakersof the divine nature” (II Peter 1:4). St. Basil writes: “Humanity is an animal who has received the vocation tobecome God”(Clement, 1993, p. 76)."

A great overview of the "history" of sin from an Orthodox standpoint:
Saint Mary Orthodox Church - Cambridge, MA
 

Amalea

New Member
People are not born evil. But they are born IGNORANT. The state of ignorance in which people are born is not a curse but a GIFT from God. For us to utilize our free will we must be ignorant or unaware of ANY spiritual influence and thus choose our own paths in life. It is through our free will that we are afforded an opportunity to choose God FREELY. While evil is represented as darkness in the Bible, ignorance is also a great spiritual darkness. Spiritual darkness is of ignorance separates man from God in matter of love, which is the very essence of God. (remember the commandments concerning the 'free will sacrifice') Evil is a potential outgrowth of ignorance, and this is but one of many reasons why God is able to forgive sin.
Remember Christ's words, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Jesus came "a light" into the world to spread the Good News that we are all children of God. And that we are loved by Him. People have confused the Gospel message. The gospel is from the Father, revealed by the son. It is not the gospel of Jesus, but of God the Father, whom Jesus Himself testifies sent Him into the world to bear witness of. No there is no original sin in which man is born, but they who being born in ignorance (darkness) and who once they have receive the light reject it are like those to whom Jesus spoke: "If you had said that you where blind you would be healed, but now you say you see, therefore your sin remains." Sin is seen by God as having been freely chosen, only when knowledge of life saving truth is rejected after it has come.(Jesus represented this light of truth). Such a sin cannot be forgiven because those who have committed it never ask for forgiveness.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
People are not born evil. But they are born IGNORANT. The state of ignorance in which people are born is not a curse but a GIFT from God. For us to utilize our free will we must be ignorant or unaware of ANY spiritual influence and thus choose our own paths in life. It is through our free will that we are afforded an opportunity to choose God FREELY. While evil is represented as darkness in the Bible, ignorance is also a great spiritual darkness. Spiritual darkness is of ignorance separates man from God in matter of love, which is the very essence of God. (remember the commandments concerning the 'free will sacrifice') Evil is a potential outgrowth of ignorance, and this is but one of many reasons why God is able to forgive sin.
Remember Christ's words, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Jesus came "a light" into the world to spread the Good News that we are all children of God. And that we are loved by Him. People have confused the Gospel message. The gospel is from the Father, revealed by the son. It is not the gospel of Jesus, but of God the Father, whom Jesus Himself testifies sent Him into the world to bear witness of. No there is no original sin in which man is born, but they who being born in ignorance (darkness) and who once they have receive the light reject it are like those to whom Jesus spoke: "If you had said that you where blind you would be healed, but now you say you see, therefore your sin remains." Sin is seen by God as having been freely chosen, only when knowledge of life saving truth is rejected after it has come.(Jesus represented this light of truth). Such a sin cannot be forgiven because those who have committed it never ask for forgiveness.
sometimes, though, I think that little children and innocents are closer to God than those of us "in the know." Maybe what we know is not as important to our spiritual well-being as what they know...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Say it with me, folks: [mantra]The doctrine of original sin does not teach that people are born evil.[/mantra]
I'm not sure if people here are saying you're born "evil".....I think evil and sin can have different meanings. What I question is the concept itself. It was accepted for a long time that sin was inherited because of an act of disobedience by the then (literal) Adam and Eve. Now because archeology refutes Adam and Eve being the fist man and woman it appears the concept has shifted thinking....by viewing it as the "community" has the propensity to commit sin...striving to be like God. IMO....(notice I said IMO)...I find it fascinating that throughout the bible these two are viewed as literal beings, described as literal beings and even their genealogy gives credence to them being literal. From the beginning of the book all the way to Paul, Adam was viewed as the "one" being responsible for the sins of all humanity. The bible is explicit on this. In one commentary you said Luke, when describing the genealogy, got it wrong. Does this also apply to Paul? He and Luke, being friends, believed the same thing. Talk of sin being inherited seems to debut in the teachings of Paul in his letters...Does this mean that his view on original sin was incorrect as well? If they were both incorrect from the get go what else did they get wrong?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;1184502 said:
". . . except when it does."

As I've tried to explicate in several posts, that's a misunderstanding, shared even by some who hold to the doctrine. "Original sin" posits that we are all born with a deplorable propensity for sin. Our natural inclination is to resist God's authority and to be subject to vices such as greed, self-interest, lust, pride, etc. However, these inclinations are not beyond our ability to resist. The human norm, though, is that we don't resist them and thereby fall into actual sin, which is what God holds us to account for.

This dynamic does not change God's original estimation of humankind. When God had finally created both man and woman, he declared creation, including humankind, to be "very good," our fall notwithstanding. God sees us as intrinsically valuable, and our "deplorable propensity for sin" hasn't changed that. If we were actually "evil," analagous, say, to the devil, there's no way God would continually reach out to us as he's doing.

So once more, [mantra]The doctrine of original sin does not teach that people are born evil.[/mantra] :D
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
As I've tried to explicate in several posts, that's a misunderstanding, shared even by some who hold to the doctrine.
Oi, if someone considers their understanding of it to be THE doctrine, then it's not a misunderstanding of the doctrine . . . for the same reason you think your understanding isn't a misunderstanding.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if people here are saying you're born "evil".....I think evil and sin can have different meanings.

Yes, I see your point. I was responding to someone who averred that people were born evil. In the context of the discussion, I assumed the poster equated the concept of original sin with the idea that people are born evil. I was concerned to put that issue to bed.

What I question is the concept itself. It was accepted for a long time that sin was inherited because of an act of disobedience by the then (literal) Adam and Eve. Now because archeology refutes Adam and Eve being the fist man and woman it appears the concept has shifted thinking....by viewing it as the "community" has the propensity to commit sin...striving to be like God. IMO....(notice I said IMO)...I find it fascinating that throughout the bible these two are viewed as literal beings, described as literal beings and even their genealogy gives credence to them being literal. From the beginning of the book all the way to Paul, Adam was viewed as the "one" being responsible for the sins of all humanity. The bible is explicit on this.

No, the bible is not explicit on this. The bible says that we have inherited our tendency to sin from Adam. Humanity is "in Adam," which is to say "dominated by their tendency to sin and the spirit of the age, the devil." All humanity shares in this tendency, which has been inherited from their parents all the way back. The point is that every single human being ever born is subject to this tendency. But, and this is crucial, Adam, however we understand Adam, is not "responsible" for our sins if we mean "culpable". He's not going to get blamed for my sins, for instance. On the other hand, he's responsible in the sense that he started this ball rolling. If Adam hadn't done whatever he did to infect all humanity with this condition, we wouldn't have come to this pass. (Of course, we must allow that somebody sometime might have started that ball rolling later eventually; in fact, that's probably guaranteed to have happened -- who knows?)

In one commentary you said Luke, when describing the genealogy, got it wrong. Does this also apply to Paul? He and Luke, being friends, believed the same thing. Talk of sin being inherited seems to debut in the teachings of Paul in his letters...Does this mean that his view on original sin was incorrect as well? If they were both incorrect from the get go what else did they get wrong?

Yes, if they conceived of Adam as a single human being, I propose that they simply got it wrong. I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, especially on empirical matters. So what else did they get wrong? Dunno. I know the OT classifies bats as birds.... But seriously, I acknowledge the thin-edge-of-the-wedge argument you're deploying here. But it seems I have no choice -- given what we've learned about our origins from science -- but to regard the biblical creation story as some sort of poetic representation of the truth. The original authors may have thought they were recording actual historical events more or less as they happened. I don't know their mind. However, if that's so it turns out their wrong, and as a person who regards the biblical text as authoritative, I've got to deal with that. And so this is my attempt to do so, with all the worries and problems that entails.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
In other words, you aren't the arbiter for what is the proper way to understand a "doctrine" for anyone but you, unless someone agrees with you, and then it's still them deciding what is and isn't the right way to understand a "doctrine." Words and ideas don't have any intrinsic truth. The one using them supplies the context, and thereby supplies the meaning.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm not sure if people here are saying you're born "evil".....I think evil and sin can have different meanings. What I question is the concept itself. It was accepted for a long time that sin was inherited because of an act of disobedience by the then (literal) Adam and Eve. Now because archeology refutes Adam and Eve being the fist man and woman it appears the concept has shifted thinking....by viewing it as the "community" has the propensity to commit sin...striving to be like God. IMO....(notice I said IMO)...I find it fascinating that throughout the bible these two are viewed as literal beings, described as literal beings and even their genealogy gives credence to them being literal. From the beginning of the book all the way to Paul, Adam was viewed as the "one" being responsible for the sins of all humanity. The bible is explicit on this. In one commentary you said Luke, when describing the genealogy, got it wrong. Does this also apply to Paul? He and Luke, being friends, believed the same thing. Talk of sin being inherited seems to debut in the teachings of Paul in his letters...Does this mean that his view on original sin was incorrect as well? If they were both incorrect from the get go what else did they get wrong?
You seem to be invoking the "infallibility" clause here. The scriptures never claim to be factually infallible. Their veracity does not depend upon it. I'm not so sure, as you are, that even the ancients, or the writers, or the redactors, thought of Adam as anything but allegorical.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;1184538 said:
Oi, if someone considers their understanding of it to be THE doctrine, then it's not a misunderstanding of the doctrine . . . for the same reason you think your understanding isn't a misunderstanding.
I might be wrong about it, but I think my conception has certain advantages over other conceptions, and for that reason I recommend it. So yes, I think that those who hold that the doctrine implies that we're evil have actually got it wrong. Y'know, thinking other people have misunderstood something isn't actually such a revolutionary or unusual position to take. Your post assumes I've misunderstood something (about logic and/or rhetoric, presumably), so what's the big deal?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
doppelgänger;1184538 said:
Oi, if someone considers their understanding of it to be THE doctrine, then it's not a misunderstanding of the doctrine . . . for the same reason you think your understanding isn't a misunderstanding.
This appears to be an argument that "since the common usage has changed, then the definition has changed." I don't believe that's an applicable argument, in this case.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
I might be wrong about it, but I think my conception has certain advantages over other conceptions, and for that reason I recommend it. So yes, I think that those who hold that the doctrine implies that we're evil have actually got it wrong. Y'know, thinking other people have misunderstood something isn't actually such a revolutionary or unusual position to take. Your post assumes I've misunderstood something (about logic and/or rhetoric, presumably), so what's the big deal?
No big deal, except that many people do understand "original sin" to mean that people are born into a fallen or evil state. So your mantra is simply incorrect . . . sometimes. Which is all I was pointing out. :D
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
doppelgänger;1184567 said:
No big deal, except that many people do understand "original sin" to mean that people are born into a fallen or evil state. So your mantra is simply incorrect . . . sometimes. Which is all I was pointing out. :D
Except that the body of people who created the doctrine also hold that doctrine is not subject to individual interpretation. The teachers of the faith are responsible for instructing folks as to the correct meaning and interpretation of doctrine. Therefore, the mantra is correct, since all those who believe differently are, according to the organization "where the buck stops", wrong.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Except that the body of people who created the doctrine also hold that doctrine is not subject to individual interpretation.
Except when they don't . . . :shrug: "The body of people" who author doctrines, is itself a doctrine that can be varied in its understanding.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
doppelgänger;1184572 said:
That's a complete straw man. And an irritatingly obvious one at that.
How so? Doctrine is not subject to interpretation. it is what it is.
 
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